Immobilised Furioso Librarian

[Fixer]

May I use Wings of Sanguinius on immobilised Furioso Librarian dread?

[Jakobus]

May I use Wings of Sanguinius on immobilised Furioso Librarian dread?

 

I assume you mean, use WoS to move, that’s a no since you are immobilised.

 

You can probably rationalise it by saying that the wings appears and you attempt to fly but with the legs seized up the Dread can initiate the jump to utilize the power

[igotsmeakabob!!]

You certainly can use the power, but your dread shouldn't be going anywhere.

[Priest33]

Tourni no. Friendly game why not, just roll 2 dangerous terrain test as the legs ext are broked.

[Black_Sky]

Congratulations, you've succesfully taken off. Now you need to land again, and you are out of landing gear.

[Gridlocked]

Congratulations, you've succesfully taken off. Now you need to land again, and you are out of landing gear.

Take 5D6 S10 hits to your back armor as your fall helplessly on your back and get get up.

 

Take 5D6 more S10 hits to your back armor as the laughter of everyone around you cuts you deeply.

[biglou666]

:P what he said ^

 

but yeah, i think it counts as movement, which probably isnt allowed. unless it specifically states in the wings of sanguinius description that you move as jump infantry (in which case the vehicular rule of imobilisation would not apply) , then you could not move the dread. i fear that is says the model moves as if it had a jump pack, which would mean the rules of being a vehicle would still apply. could we someone with a codex to hand clear this up? does it say moves as jump infantry, or as a jump pack?

[BorisBC]

"this allows the librarian to move as if he had a jump pack"

 

"the vehicle may not move for the rest of the game"

 

no you can't WoS an immobilised dread. I suppose you could play it in a friendly, but just so long as I get to make up rules as well m'kay?

 

:lol: :P

[Brother Theophantus]

It's a very unclear problem the rules arn't designed to cope with as vehicles normally cant get a jump pack or similar effect and actually is related to other problems. Does the fact that immobilized vehicles can't move mean they are immune to magna grapples and other effects that should alter their position? Also is an immobilized dread using psyker wings to move really more odd than an immobilized dread with both its arms shot off still being able to attack in cc which the rules do permit?

 

On a related note as far as im aware planes and helicopters don't actually need landing gear that moves in order to land so the whole crash landing problem doesn't seem to hold water. Anyone more aeronautically experienced can feel free to correct me.

[Tokunator]

Yes. but a helicopter's landing gear is built in a way that stops it from moving at all (i.e. it is normally solid and fixed). A Dreadnought's legs are designed to move and are thus not solid and fixed but flexible. They therefore would give way when the Dreadnought lands and thus cause it to land on its face or back because they can't support the weight in the way fixed landing gear could.

[Nore]

Immobilization is not only related to the legs being destroyed etc, it can also be that a fuel line was shot out and the hydraulics are malfunctioning. This is a fantasy game, and it's only the effect, not the cause, that are being described. Therefore the limitation lies in not being able to move, and not being unable to stand upright, fighting in close combat or in this case: land.

 

When both arms are gone, he can still attack; because it's only the effect (not being able to use the weapon) not the cause (e.g arm gone, or just hydraulic failure) that are being described. Therein lies the fun in this game, we can envision what is happening in a myriad of settings, where the effects are the same. A Space Marine that loses a wound is not necessarily dead, just unable to function (i.e. unconscious or lost a leg/arm.) The cause is in our imagination.

 

Therefore, i would say that YES, you can use the psychic power to fly/move, as the magma grapple will be able to move an immobilized vehicle, the imaginary wings set forth by a psychic power will be able to move the same vehicle.

 

I understand it's a gray area, but i feel this is the correct interpretation.

[JamesI]

The rule immobilized says "may not move".

 

Wings says "move as jump infantry". This requires you to move. But when you try, you are immoblized and may not move.

[Gaz1858]

The rule immobilized says "may not move".

 

Wings says "move as jump infantry". This requires you to move. But when you try, you are immoblized and may not move.

 

Id second this ^^

[stinkenheim]

a magn-grapple is physically dragging something across the ground, whether that thing is immobilised or not it is being moved against it's will. there is a FW vehicle (the atlas i think) that can move immobilised vehicles around as it is a recovery vehicle.

neither of these things are the immobilised vehicle trying to mov, they represent it being moved by an outside influence and so fit within the rules.

 

WOS however is the dread trying to move itself despite the rules prohibiting it from making any kind of movement. that in my book equates to severe rules bending in the extreme and is at best a very liberal interpetation of the rules and at worst cheating.

[Gaoramon]

WOS however is the dread trying to move itself despite the rules prohibiting it from making any kind of movement. that in my book equates to severe rules bending in the extreme and is at best a very liberal interpetation of the rules and at worst cheating.

 

Wow, this is ramping up the drama a little more than necessary.

 

The immobilized rule is for standard movement, and is from the main rulebook. The WoS power is extraordinary movement, and is from the codex. The wording is 'allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack.' There is no limitation under which this movement can take place (specifically whether the Librarian dreadnought must not be immobilized). So in the end this is a simple matter of codex > main rulebook... an immobilized Librarian dread should be able to use WoS to move.

 

In fact, since the power lasts until the end of the player turn (not just the movement phase), one could make the argument that it actually allows an immobilized dreadnought to assault as well. Methinks we need an official FAQ...

[gorbhan]

The immobilized rule is for standard movement, and is from the main rulebook. The WoS power is extraordinary movement, and is from the codex. The wording is 'allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack.' There is no limitation under which this movement can take place (specifically whether the Librarian dreadnought must not be immobilized). So in the end this is a simple matter of codex > main rulebook... an immobilized Librarian dread should be able to use WoS to move.

 

In fact, since the power lasts until the end of the player turn (not just the movement phase), one could make the argument that it actually allows an immobilized dreadnought to assault as well. Methinks we need an official FAQ...

WoS is not extraordinary movement, moving as though you had a jump pack is still normal movement. And even if your opponent did allow you to move like that, assault movement will always be normal movement so you could never jump into combat with an immobilized dread.

An immobilized dread is immobilized and unmoving, end of story.

[DV8]

@Gaoramon, you're interpreting it in the wrong sequence, or rather, in an incorrect way and out of sequence.

 

You are right that the Codex always trumps the Rulebook, but that is only in areas of conflict where a particular rule functions differently in two instances (once in the Rulebook, once in the Codex).

 

This, however, is not a rules conflict.

 

The turn sequence is as follows:

 

Movement

Shooting

Assault

 

Now ignoring the Wings of Sanguinius power for a moment, consider a Dreadnought in the regular turn sequence of a game.

 

In the Movement phase, it is allowed to move up to 6". In the Shooting phase, it may either shoot a weapon, or it may Run. If it shot a weapon, it may then attempt to charge the unit it shot at by making an Assault move (and will engage them in combat if it can reach). If the Dreadnought Ran, it may not make any Assault Moves unless it also had the "Fleet" special rule (which is not a separate rule, but adds an addendum that any unit that Runs with the Fleet special rule may also then make an Assault Move in the Assault Phase.

 

In all instances, moving in any of the phases is considered to be a "move". As the Dreadnought is physically moving across the plane of the table, I'm sure you won't attempt to argue this.

 

Now, if I were to shoot the Dreadnought and subsequently Immobilize it, the rules state that the vehicle may not move for the rest of the game. Now following the typical turn sequence:

 

In the Movement phase, the Dreadnought wants to move, but it is Immobilized and is not allowed to. It must sit still. In the Shooting phase, it wants to Run forward, but it cannot. It's only option (if possible) is to shoot a weapon. In the Assault phase, it wants to charge an enemy unit that is within range. However as it cannot move, it must sit still.

 

It is important to note at this point that the Dreadnought may not voluntarily choose to move as this action is a direct attempt on the Dreadnought's part to perform said action. It can be involuntarily forced to move via such things as a Magna-grapple, Eldritch Storm (which spins the vehicle around, which an Immobilized vehicle cannot do), or a Vehicle Recovery System (whatever those Forgeworld things are).

 

Now, Wings of Sanguinius allows a model to move as if it were equipped with a Jump Pack. It does not change the unit type (to Jump Infantry or anything else). Mephiston using Wings is still Infantry, a Dreadnought using Wings is still a Walker. So casting Wings on a Dreadnought, first and foremost, does not circumvent the Immobilization damage, simply because the Dreadnought is allowed to move as if it had a Jump Pack.

 

Secondly, while Wings allows you to move as if it were equipped with a Jump Pack, it does not make considerations for such things as being Pinned, Locked in Combat, or in this instance Immobilized. A Pinned model, where it to somehow have Wings cast on it, would still be unable to move because it is Pinned (which prohibits the model in question from performing anything under it's own volition for the duration of its turn). A model Locked in Combat is unable to move or shoot until it finishes the combat it is engaged in (by either winning, being broken, or being killed). Similarily, an Immobilized vehicle for whatever reason may still cast Wings on itself, risking Perils, but would still be unable to move, because the sequence would be as follows:

 

- Movement Phase, I can move 6".

- I am Immobilized and thus cannot move. I can move 0".

- I cast Wings of Sanguinius on myself which allows me to move as if I had a Jump Pack. I can move 12", ignoring intervening terrain.

- I am still Immobilized, and thus cannot move. I can move 0".

 

There is no limitation under which this movement can take place (specifically whether the Librarian dreadnought must not be immobilized)

 

By your logic, because the rulebook and any codex doesn't say I can't arbitrarily declare myself winner (and have it be thus) at the start of each game, I can, from this point on, start each game with the declaration "I AM THE WINNER!", and walk away. (Although this would allow me to never have to build an army again, nor carry one around).

 

That's not the way the rules work. The rules do not state out "what you are not allowed to do", and anything that isn't listed there is fair game. The rules function under a permissive state, outlining "what you are allowed to do". Anything not listed is not allowed to be performed.

 

 

DV8

[wookielips]

stop trying to bend the rules guys. its immobilised. you. can't. move.

 

next time bring a techmarine and fix it. i did/do, and its nice.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Tourni no. Friendly game why not, just roll 2 dangerous terrain test as the legs ext are broked.

 

Hah awesome idea... makes perfect sense too. Though for the record, I think the intended answer is 'no' as well.

[Venerable Jazzman]

Technically, by RAW, a Dreadnought with Wings "moves as if he had a jump pack" (p63, WoS rule), so he's Jump Infantry (p62 Jump Pack Wargear entry)

 

Two questions come to mind - does the Jump Infantry rule override the Immobilised vehicle rule?

And the second's getting a thread of it's own :huh:

[DV8]

"It allows the Librarian to move as if he had a jump pack."

 

There is a big difference between moving "as if" you had a jump pack, and moving "with" a jump pack.

 

And again you are completely overlooking the fact that 40k rules are written with the permissive state. That is, it tells you what restrictions or sequences you must abide by, and what you can do. If it doesn't say you can do it, then you can't. If the Wings of Sanguinius power does not state that your unit type changes when the power is successfully cast, then you remain a Walker that can move 12" and ignoring intervening for that terrain.

 

 

DV8

[Jakobus]

I can't see the issue really.

 

WoS will allow the Dread to move as if it was Jump Troops BUT its been immobilized there can't move.

 

There is nothing I can see anywhere which suddenly would override that damage condition.

[Emperors Immortals]

You apparently cant use WoS with an immobilized dread, and i wont contest that here.

 

BUT - FLUFFWISE - if a psychic power can lift a massivly heavy adamantium casket into the air, why could it not also gently lower it to the ground? I mean, it would be a pretty poor psyker who couldnt control it?

[Jakobus]

You apparently cant use WoS with an immobilized dread, and i wont contest that here.

 

BUT - FLUFFWISE - if a psychic power can lift a massivly heavy adamantium casket into the air, why could it not also gently lower it to the ground? I mean, it would be a pretty poor psyker who couldnt control it?

 

Fluff-wise, the WoS are able to jump the massivly heavy adamantium casket into the air, in co-ooperation with the normal movment of the Dreads legs and movement junk. Since the mechanics of the Dread that allow it to move are frozen or damaged in some other way Dread maybe able to materialise to Wings but unable to take advantage of them.

 

As for them abilities of the Pysker, I can't say. Maybe they are instructed that if they loose motor functions not to attempt this due to an unacceptable possiblity that attempting a Jump in that state could subject them to Perils fo the Warp, or irriversably damage the inner workings of a Holy artifact of the chapter

[Priest33]

Dont really understand why you would want to move it anyway, its not like it can magicaly charge something with its move, sure it can contest objectives and I guess some people would want to put it in cover or something odd.. but really why move it at all?