Captain VS Chapter Master

[ImperialReaper]

Greetings,

 

I usually play games at lower points between 600 and 1000. I therefore do not deploy any “ueber” units like Calgar and stuff but a Space Marine Captain. I recently got a package of 4 Chaptermasters (those 4 metal models) which look pretty cool.

 

But when It comes to point costs and options I cant spot much of a difference between Chaptermasters and a Captain. The Chaptermaster is 25pts more and can therefore order an orbital bombardement. The options on wargear are mainly equal.

 

Are there any advantages which the Chaptermaster has over the Captain and are they effective in low point games?

[Chengar Qordath]

The other big difference you missed between Captain and Chapter Master is that the Captain can take a command squad, while the Chapter Master can take an Honor Guard. Honor Guard tends to be heavily cc-focused, while the command squad is a lot more flexible in how it is used.

[amberclad87]

In a lower point game the orbital bombardment has a bigger impact because you have the potential to take out a lot of stuff with it and in a smaller point game thats very valuable. Although I find the command squad to be more versatile than an honor guard unit. But if your going to take a command squad you have to take a captain then thats like 200 ish points. You may get more bang for your buck with the chaptermaster.

[Velkairiwyth]

Unless you are going for special character chapter masters - I would opt for no.

 

The reasons?

 

Orbital Bombardment for 25 points - it is damn good - especially as a game opener when you have first turn to try to take out that key unit at the start of the game - e.g Tyranid Warrior Brood who will walk all over your army will die on a 2+ if the template hits (Thats a big IF since the BS isnt taking into consideration.)

 

Other than that the two units are the same, so it comes down to what else they provide the army with:

 

A captain on a bike makes biker marines (5+ in a unit) troops and scoring. This is fantastic if your army is based around bikers or you want to have a fast moving scoring unit that can do more than contest on that last round.

 

Command squad v's Honor guard.

 

Neither unit gets an invulnerable save - so 3+ and feel no pain is in my opinion much more reliable (especially since this applies to any ICs in the unit)

(Advantage: Command squad.)

 

Honour Guard are geared for CC regardless of how you wish to use them, whereas the Command Squad can be geared how you see fit (Advantage: Command squad)

 

Honour Guard have no ablative wounds - all members of the unit have power weapons which means any losses will be substantial to the units effectiveness (Advantage: Command Squad.)

 

You can however take up to 10 Honour Guard whilst Command squads are a fixed 5-man unit - so if you want to field a durable unit whos only weakness is AP2 / power weaponry then they do kick butt.

 

LD 10 on Honour Guard v 9 on Command squad (Not a big deal as youll likely run the unit with an IC)

 

Chapter Champion comes as standard in the honour guard squad and has some funky abilities (IC hunting)

 

 

This is just my analysis of the two units and characters, it all really comes down to how you want to play. I have tried a command squad once in 4th edition and found them to do absolutely awesome (Lost one model and that was to a difficult terrain test.)

 

I have tried honour guard once along with Calgar and the unit was wiped out in melee by Nids before I even got to strike... Thats a good 400 point death star that went Smoosh by being outclassed by a unit that it had no strengths over (weak shooting.)

 

I would love to field Honour Guard with either Khan in it or a Chaplain (Furious Charge or Rerolling Misses) - I think it would do very well against anything that doesnt ignore armour.. Unfortunately to get their points worth they are likely only going to benefit by getting into combat with the more expensive units in the opponents army... which is more than likely going to have a power weapon of sorts meaning casualties are inevitable. For now I shall stick to Khan in a Command squad toting some melta guns for any anti-armour requirements and a fist to add to the S5 power sword and S7 Relic Blade on charge. (At I5 on all but fist it means that Im almost always at least attacking at the same time, if not - Im in a good position to wipe the unit on the charge - As witnessed in a battle V IG - I took out the HQ unit on the charge, then absorbed lasgun fire from a unit of 15 troopers with 0 casualties, then charged them and killed all of them aswell. Very yummy.)

 

Im rambling and going off topic, but you can see here my preference lies and why :lol:

[Giga]

Captains are better because they're cheaper then chapter masters and they get access to command squads (which are pretty darn great if you kit them with 4 flamers or 4 plasmaguns). You can also put him on a bike and get bikes as troops, which is awesome.

 

Honor guard aren't worth it (assault terminators are way better) and orbital bombardment is too hit and miss to be worth the 25 points difference. If it was simply a HEAVY1 weapon then having a terminator armor chapter master would actually be a great idea, but as it is, not really.

[Velkairiwyth]

I miss the last version of the marine codex on one point: Terminator HQ.

 

Think about it... terminator assault HQ for an assaulty captain *drool*

 

2+ save with an invul (5+ or even 3+ with THSS) and costs about the same as an honour guard - plus an apothecary for feel no pain...

[Captain Idaho]

It depends on whether you like Honour Guard really. I love the unit personally, as they perform well against a variety of targets and are reasonably tough to kill.

 

Assault Terminators aren't for everyone and not everyone wants to pay 250pts out on a transport for them (though what is not to love about our Landraiders!). Rather than argue about the virtues of Honour Guard over Assault Terminators (which is a whole different topic), trust that some people prefer HG.

 

Anway, Chapter Master's grant the capacity to take HG, which is good. A home grown Master can have a Storm Shield and Relic Blade and clock in at 170pts. This, inside a unit of HG with Chapter Banner, grants 5 S6 attacks on the charge hitting on 3+ at a higher initiative than most models. The Honour Guard themselves have so many attacks and if you give the Champion a Relic Blade you get another 5 attacks hitting on 3+ at Initiative 4, hidden in the unit. That is awesome.

 

So that is 10 S6 attacks hitting on 3+ on the charge, and the other 4 models get 20 power weapon attacks at Initiative 4. That ain't too shabby.

 

The 3+ invulnerable save helps protect the Master and the unit. Having good survivability means you get to put the Master in base contact that could hurt the HG in assault (hidden power weapons etc) or put AP2 shooting attacks on him.

 

That is just a few things I like about a generic Master with HG combo.

 

If you aren't taking HG I would probably save on the 25pts and go for a Captain.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I thought Honorguard came with artifacer armor standard, and artifacer armor > 3+ and feal no pain, as there are less things that will ignore them (such as the ever popular krak missile). Comand squads are some of my favorite things in the dex, but they do not make a good CC unit (by the time you kit them for CC they cost WAY to much), if you want CC, honor guard are better.

 

As for 25 points for orbital bombardment, when it hits, it is worth its points many, many, many times over, when it misses, wel, it misses. In average it is more than worth its points but its not reliable. If you dont want the comand squad or the biker troops then I would say its worth the investment, but for me, I want the comand squad (4 special weapons, dirt cheap).

[ImperialReaper]

Orbital Bombardment for 25 points - it is damn good - especially as a game opener when you have first turn to try to take out that key unit at the start of the game - e.g Tyranid Warrior Brood who will walk all over your army will die on a 2+ if the template hits (Thats a big IF since the BS isnt taking into consideration.)

 

Why does the rule to subtract the bf from your roll not apply here? I cant find it in the rulebook....

[Captain Idaho]

It's in the profile of the weapon in the Chapter Master entry in the Codex.

 

I've had some pathetic misses with the Orbital Bombardment, killing a couple Termagants or missing completely. I have stunned a Landraider with it too, which was a disappointment.

 

However I have also wiped out an entire Sternguard squad / Tactical squad in a single hit (well a single surviver in each in both games but we won't quibble with details!), a destroyed Devil Fish etc.

 

Hit or miss, it will either be a great sucker punch seemingly from nothing or do little.

 

I do think it is worth while, I just like to save the points. However, if you have points spare, use it!

[mowglie]

First, the CM has to be stationary to use it. You don't want your assault IC standing still taking potshots. You want him getting stuck in.

 

Second, it misses far more often than not. 1/3 chance of hitting, 2/3 chance of scattering with no reduction for BS.

 

It's definitely devastating when it hits (mmm... S10 AP1 ordinance!), but it's a huge gamble and imo not worth the points.

[Voltaire]

Honor guard are geared for hard hitting fire support, not CC. Equip them with Astartes grenade launchers and pump S6 AP4 shots into enemy elites. The chapter master should be geared in a simialer manner.

[mowglie]

Honor guard are geared for hard hitting fire support, not CC. Equip them with Astartes grenade launchers and pump S6 AP4 shots into enemy elites. The chapter master should be geared in a simialer manner.

 

Interesting idea, but at over 50 points per model, wouldn't you say you get more firepower, cheaper, and more resilient elsewhere in the codex?

[Captain Idaho]

Actually, holding back an assault unit for a turn is perfectly acceptable and often a good idea, particularly if you get the chance to take out an opposing heavy target. I often hang back with for the 1st turn and fire upon my opponents with my heavy weapons from Rhino top hatches and other heavy weaponary (like the Landraider or Dreads or Landspeeders), if the Master adds to this fuselage then all the better.

 

Remember also that a large model like a Landraider will still be hit if you on a minor scatter.

 

Plus if you aren't too bothered about what your target is, just pick something where the scatter will still hit something. Anything dead for just 25pts is pretty good.

 

Honor guard are geared for hard hitting fire support, not CC. Equip them with Astartes grenade launchers and pump S6 AP4 shots into enemy elites. The chapter master should be geared in a simialer manner

 

Agree, interesting but very expensive. Have you tried it?

[mowglie]

Actually, holding back an assault unit for a turn is perfectly acceptable and often a good idea, particularly if you get the chance to take out an opposing heavy target.

 

Ignoring our previous argument about the wisdom of expensive units in (relatively) fragile transports for now (as I said in the other thread :P):-

 

Does the orbital bombardment need a fire point? If so you'll need to be in a rhino, rather than a RB/LR. Not sure how RAW stands on that, don't have the book in front of me. I suspect that while he doesn't need LoS, he still consumes a fire point because he's still making a shooting attack.

[Velkairiwyth]

You make a good point. I always assumed the CM would just get on the radio, and BAM, Orbital barrage - but looking at the description - its used like a shooting attack - Ergo - I think it would need a line of sight, cover saves would apply and yes - he would need a firing slot :s

 

Dang :P

 

Hope Im wrong, but thats my interpretation!

 

Edit:: Its Ordnance Barrage - so would not need a LOS - but cover saves would apply.

[mowglie]

Edit:: Its Ordnance Barrage - so would not need a LOS - but cover saves would apply.

 

He definitely doesn't need LoS, cover saves definitely apply, and he definitely doesn't subtract his BS from the scatter, but does he still need a fire point? (i.e. can he do it out of a razorback?) What's the wording under shooting from vehicles in the rulebook?

[Chengar Qordath]

He definitely doesn't need LoS, cover saves definitely apply, and he definitely doesn't subtract his BS from the scatter, but does he still need a fire point? (i.e. can he do it out of a razorback?) What's the wording under shooting from vehicles in the rulebook?

The rules specifically say that passengers can only use shooting attacks out of a firing point, and the entry in the codex states that a bombardment counts as firing a ranged weapon, so I would lean towards a fire point being required.

 

Also, while cover saves do apply, keep in mind that barrage weapons measure cover from the center of the blast template rather than the shooter, so getting a cover save is fairly rare unless the unit is in area terrain.

[mowglie]

The rules specifically say that passengers can only use shooting attacks out of a firing point, and the entry in the codex states that a bombardment counts as firing a ranged weapon, so I would lean towards a fire point being required.

 

That's what I thought. So he'll need a rhino. Shame; he's underpowered as it is!

[Velkairiwyth]

Well, could start completely out of line of sight in cover or soemthing then move into the transport when you want to get moving?

 

And oooh - forgot aboutt he cover v barrage rule being calculated from the centre point. Yey :P I was a bit worried that landing the template on a unit would mean they all get cover saves, which they wont unless in area terrain - although any other units caught in the template would get cover from the targeted unit (all assuming it hits of course ^.^)

[Frosty the Pyro]

The rules specifically say that passengers can only use shooting attacks out of a firing point, and the entry in the codex states that a bombardment counts as firing a ranged weapon, so I would lean towards a fire point being required.

 

That's what I thought. So he'll need a rhino. Shame; he's underpowered as it is!

Not realy, if you assume it only hits on a direct hit (which is false as it can scater into things), then the break even point would be 75 points (75*1/3=25), thats 3 sternguard, or two attack bikes. I mean if you cant choose 75 points worth of models with a large blast you need to work on your target priorities.

 

Actualy that might be a fun experiment, have folks who use the chapter master keep a Orbital Bombardment Jurnal, traking its kills (and point values) as well as misses and averaging it out.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't get why the Break even point is 75pts? Little unclear from your post?

 

Besides, if it takes off that Battle cannon or what ever, it has technically not earnt it's points back direcly, but then it has achieved something worthwhile.

 

Ignoring our previous argument about the wisdom of expensive units in (relatively) fragile transports for now (as I said in the other thread

 

Indeed :cry:

 

But that was just an example. It depends on your opponent and the exact need in game. It works the other way too (end of game etc).

 

Anyway, because of the size of a Master/Marine model, turing a Transport appropriately to the side enables the Master to be out of LOS so we can fire it without getting shot in return. And with a 3+ Invulnerable from a Storm Shield any of the limited long range shots of an opponent directed at him are potentially wasted when they could be targetting your transports (the real game winning models).

[templargdt]

He is saying the break even point is 75 points because the OB will only hit 1/3 of the time, so you need to kill 75 points when you get that hit to make the OB worthwhile over three games. As was mentioned that's not totally accurate since you will also scatter into things.

 

Personally, I love the Chapter Master, and he gets better at higher point levels where the odds of scattering on to something grow. At large games (2000 points for example) against some armies you are almost certainly going to kill something; drop the template dead center of a Nid or Guard army. When he's packing 100+ models and 10 tanks or MCs on the board, you'll do some damage to someone.

 

I think Honor Guard are OK. They're great against some things but over priced compared to Assault Terminators. You can save on the land raider but then you don't have the assault ramp (and I personally love Land Raiders just as general combat machines.) The assault ramp is probably not a deal breaker; YMMV.

 

I think I will start a journal listing out how my Chapter Master does. I'm also thinking about running Kantor plus a generic Chapter Master in my large games. Two orbital bombardments turn 1 could really ruin someone's day.

[Voltaire]

Honor guard are geared for hard hitting fire support, not CC. Equip them with Astartes grenade launchers and pump S6 AP4 shots into enemy elites. The chapter master should be geared in a simialer manner

 

Agree, interesting but very expensive. Have you tried it?

 

 

I have on two seperate occasions, but my fugly conversians of IG 'nade launchers and overall the massive point sink to my 1500pt armies caused me to forget them.

They're excellent transport, and light-elite infantry killers. They also annoy the hell out of eldar tanks, though that can prove dangerous at rapid fire range.

 

 

I actually managed to kill a dreadnought once by rapidfiring it to death with A.G.L.'s due to sheer quantity of roles.

[mowglie]

Anyway, because of the size of a Master/Marine model, turing a Transport appropriately to the side enables the Master to be out of LOS so we can fire it without getting shot in return. And with a 3+ Invulnerable from a Storm Shield any of the limited long range shots of an opponent directed at him are potentially wasted when they could be targetting your transports (the real game winning models).

 

You mean start him outside the transport? Yeah, that works too, and it's only very slightly risky. In fact, I think you'd prefer to do that anyway since e.g. he wouldn't be able to shoot out of a rhino if your opponent stunned it on his turn 1.

 

They also annoy the hell out of eldar tanks, though that can prove dangerous at rapid fire range.

 

I actually managed to kill a dreadnought once by rapidfiring it to death with A.G.L.'s due to sheer quantity of roles.

 

See, now I think you're getting confused. The Auxiliary grenade launcher that the Honour Guard get (bringing their points cost to over 50 points per model) is Assault 1. The Astartes grenade launcher that Scout Bikers get is rapidfire.