Jump packs or Rhinos?

[Lord_Reven]

Hey, I am relatively new to space marines (usually play Necrons) and so I am not 100% sure what i should do with the assault squads (For Blood Angels). If they are 5-6 putting them in a Razorback would be better then the rhino, since for 5 pts more you get a heavy bolter, but what about 7-10 man squads, should they keep their jump packs, or should they be put in a rhino? Are some things better VS. certian types of armies?

[Jackelope King]

To start, don't think in terms of "this way is better against this army".

 

A good all-comers list will have bad match-ups, sure, but it'll be good against most match-ups.

 

As for Rhinos vs. Jump Packs, with Blood Angels, you have your choice. Blood Angels can make a really nice fast mech army, or they can make the best jump pack armies of all Space Marines chapters. But do one or the other, as they're entirely different army types. A Jump Pack army, for instance, requires Sanguinary Priests for their Feel No Pain bubble, or else you're in trouble. A mech Blood Angels army doesn't need Priests, so you have more flexibility in your Elites and HQ choices.

 

Mech is more typical for Marines in general, and you're usually in position to be in the enemy's face by turn 2. You're more likely going to be coming in waves, as you have a chance of your transports being destroyed, immobilized, or stunned while cruising across midfield. Most of your force will probably arrive just fine, and you'll have more Marines in-tact.

 

Jump Packs are a signature of Blood Angels. They're usually going to arrive with some attrition, but just when you want them to get there. Descent of Angels also gives you a lot of really interesting options if you choose to go that way.

[Koremu]

Bah to "all-comers". No real army goes into battle with no clue as to their enemy and its disposition. It's just one more reason that tournament all-comers is the least fun type of battle environment to play in!

 

Against Necrons, all vehicles are currently quite weak because 'crons auto-glance anything (even a Raider) on a 6. So even Warriors can pop your Rhino with ease.

[JamesI]

I'm going to disagree with Koremu here. I like all comers style (basically since every week when I get to my store I have no idea what I'm going to play).

 

I'm biased towards jump packs for assault squads. Get some of the great BA tanks (preds, baals, vindicators, razorbacks for smaller squads) and use those to block LOS while the assault marines move in for the kill.

[Koremu]

So despite our disagreements on game type, we all agree that Jump Packs are the way forward?

[JamesI]

Yep.

[Lord_Reven]

Sweet guys! So basically Razorbacks for 5 man squads, but 10 man squads with a sang priest (with jump packs ofc.. or the squad needs to etleast be within the "6" bubble) would be preferable if im going all out assault.

 

BTW, what do i arm the sarge with? A power weapon with furious charge would be epic vs most MEQ armies, but should i go with the power fist instead?

[JamesI]

I generally go powerfist on the sergeant, power weapon on the sanguinary priest.

[Jackelope King]

Sweet guys! So basically Razorbacks for 5 man squads, but 10 man squads with a sang priest (with jump packs ofc.. or the squad needs to etleast be within the "6" bubble) would be preferable if im going all out assault.

No no. You really need to do one or the other with any single army list. If you're going to build a Razorback list for Blood Angels, you need to go all-in for Razorbacks (you need a lot fewer than you do for a really solid Codex: Space Marine Razorback Spam list, however). Four or so with Twin-Linked Assault Cannons (fast Razorbacks get shots on side armor like pros... my poor slow Razorbacks don't, so they get Las/Plas in Codex: Space Marines). You have the best Razorbacks of all Space Marines for Assault Cannons. Four or so supported by Baal Predators will probably do a nice job.

 

If you want to do a list with Rhinos, you can do that too. Drive the fast rhinos up and park. Watch the enemy shoot and suffer minimal attrition, then on turn 2 climb out and kick face in.

 

If you want to do a jump pack army, then you take large 10-man squads with a heavy hitter or two like Vanguard Vets or Honor Guard or Sanguinary Guard, and plenty of Sanguinary Priests.

 

These are three different types of armies. Treat them as such.

 

Note, however, than at least Blood Angels can usually afford to take a small Assault Squad or two with jump packs and melta weaponry to threaten tanks thanks to Descent of Angels.

 

(And no, don't fear Necrons when you play Mech. Glancing hits don't kill tanks, and with the exception of Destroyers, Necrons do not have ranged shots that matter. The current Necron Codex is weak sauce.)

[Lord_Reven]

I dislike upgrading the priest as he is a IC with 1 wound. Being the one who provides all my guys with FnP and furious charge i want him at the back of the unit where i can manouver him to stay out of CC, so he can't get hit.

 

Edit: Thanks for pointing it out Jackelope :rolleyes:

 

P.S. I never asked for help vs necrons guys, i simply stated i played them :lol: I am quite aware of how gimped they became with 5th ed rules, wich is why i dont leave home without A: The Nightbringer B: 2 Liths. I might phase out, but im sure as hell going to be cheesy about it!

[Wildfire]

So despite our disagreements on game type, we all agree that Jump Packs are the way forward?

 

No, not really. I think it's personal play style. I like a mix better, although if I was going all one way or the other I'd prefer vehicles.

[thade]

I do both. 1-2 assault squads in Rhinos, 1-2 assaults squads flying, and 1-2 tac squads for fire support. I usually field 2-3 Sanguinary Priests, and the only upgrades they ever get would be either jump packs (because it's nice to have a super-mobile priest) or a storm bolter (because they cost next-to-nothing and are kind of nice).

 

I leave the priests in their transports (if they can ride in one their ability is ranged at 6" from the hull instead of them) and 9-man squads here or there so they can fit with them. Some assault teams have double melta-gun, some have double-flamer, the others have one of each (or only one melta if it's a 9-man). The vehicles give assault troops something to hide behind if I have nothing else for them to do. I might DS them to double-flamer a unit later or keep them in reserve for that 18" off-my-table-edge threat range.

 

Really you're going to want to try both to see what suits you the best. A marine horde with all jump packs can be loads of fun to play for you. Mech is also very very fun. I enjoy both and so I've come to doing mixes as I've described.

 

I don't disagree with Koremu or JamesI at all; just wanted to add my perspective. <3

[Koremu]

See, I have a fully modelled and painted Infantry Assault Squad, and I've used them... once. The volume of attacks is kinda nice, but for Land Raider based ops I'd always prefer a Vanguard Squad (better equipment options and more attacks), while Rhinos cramp the Assault Squad too much because the space prevents using a Charlie, and an Assault Squad sans Charlie isn't worth it IMO.

 

Now, if you're BA (or have nice opponents who don't mind giving you the 35 point discount from a Land Raider), maybe Infantry Assault Squad would be worth it.

[Lord_Reven]

IMO van vets for BA are really not worth it. No upgades they are 115 pts, but they arent worth squat foot slogging, so A: Jump packs are needed or B: A transport is needed. At the cheapest this would be a drop pod for 35 pts. Now you have a decent assault squad for 150 pts. BUT for BA, under the elite slot, you have Sanguinary guard. For 50 more points you get: Artificer armour, 4 more power weps (all master cafted), jump packs, and a storm bolter per model.

[thade]

Sanguinary Guard is meh. Their cost is huge for no invuln, T4, and a 12" range. Not to mention how much their fluff makes them out to be uber and their WS is a whopping 4. And there's only five of them. One volley of rapid fire and even with those 2+ saves you are losing expensive, should-be epic guys.

 

Foot-slogging Vanguard in a Land Raider shouldn't be under-estimated (though it frequently is). The Vanguard can go to 10 models which the Sanguinary Guard cannot do, which gives you something the SG do not have: ablative wound marines. Also, Lightning Claws are WAY better than master-crafted power weapons. Rerolling one to-hit with Str 4 to wound pales in comparison to rerolling to wound on Str 4 (which is statistically better than a power fist vs infantry). There's something else ten models can do that five cannot: launch multiple assaults that tie up three or more units.

 

My typical vanguard is 2-3 marines with single lightning claws each, 2-3 vanilla marines, and 1-2 marines with storm shields. And I give them a Sanguinary Priest which hides in the LRC they ride in. That LRC should also not be under-estimated, especially with it's 35 point discount. It's the equivalent fire power of a tactical squad and it's AV14 and can fire everything on the move. And it's got a Sanguinary Priest in it, so 6" around it's hull = FNP. Out come the Vanguard. <3

 

EDIT: Let me add that the Sanguinary Guard models look *amazing*. Well worth converting into BA assault sergeants. :P

[mowglie]

There's something terrifying about a scoring 5-man assault squad with a meltagun in a razorback for 130 points.

 

I desperately wish C:SM had something equivalent.

 

And that's before you start handing out FNP left-right-and-centre.

[JamesI]

IMO van vets for BA are really not worth it. No upgades they are 115 pts, but they arent worth squat foot slogging, so A: Jump packs are needed or B: A transport is needed. At the cheapest this would be a drop pod for 35 pts. Now you have a decent assault squad for 150 pts. BUT for BA, under the elite slot, you have Sanguinary guard. For 50 more points you get: Artificer armour, 4 more power weps (all master cafted), jump packs, and a storm bolter per model.

I have to completely disagree. Vanguard have one huge advantage over Sanguinary Guard or Honor Guard. The ability to be larger than 5 models. My Vanguard is always my best unit. 8 guys, thunder hammer, power fist, power weapon. Add a reclusiarch and a sanguinary priest nearby and they will rip through anything.

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

Rhinos. You've got Turbo Engines on those monsters, make use of them. Besides, PA die from lasguns, Rhinos don't. Get some Baal Preds to support your squads and you've got a wall of vehicles storming foward. Beware of the tank-jealous Guard though.

 

Oh, and did I mention that? Rhinos protect you from Chaos Lash spam :P

[Muctar]

In my area there is a player who uses three 9-man assault squads in Rhinos, each with an attached Sanguinary Priest. Each squad has a meltagun, power fist, and each SP is packing either a combi-melta or infernus pistol. He also runs one 10-man assault squad with jump packs and an attached librarian (with jump pack), and the squad as 2 meltaguns and a power fist.

 

This is the base for most of his lists and it is very hard to crack. SP gives anyone within 6" of the rhinos FNP, so the JP assault squad always has at least 1 model within 6" of at least 1 rhino, but more often more of the rhinos. This means that his whole army effectively has FNP all the time, very fast, and very durable since you have to crack the rhinos first to get to the squads inside. Popping the transports is no small feat either since the librarian uses Shield of Sanguinus each turn so they all have 5+ cover saves, or 4+ if they pop smoke instead.

 

As for the rest of the army to support this core, Preds & Vindis for Heavy Support, and 3 Baals for Fast Attack work well.

 

Overall, I personally like going with more mech than jump pack, so I do think that think his setup is very good, since he's got lots of troops that are hard to kill running along with a fast moving jump squad. A lot of mech with a little of the jump infantry world tossed in. I'd personally recommend trying something similar to this just to give it a whirl. Never know, you may like it.

[Sir Caverstein]

I dislike upgrading the priest as he is a IC with 1 wound. Being the one who provides all my guys with FnP and furious charge i want him at the back of the unit where i can manouver him to stay out of CC, so he can't get hit.

 

Edit: Thanks for pointing it out Jackelope B)

 

P.S. I never asked for help vs necrons guys, i simply stated i played them :) I am quite aware of how gimped they became with 5th ed rules, wich is why i dont leave home without A: The Nightbringer B: 2 Liths. I might phase out, but im sure as hell going to be cheesy about it!

Wot necrons are as though as nails.

Last time I checked we were playing a tournie and necrons got 1st and 2nd place.

Don't understimate the poor line infantry and the destroyers

And yep monoliths are nice not to say a game breaker

[Wildfire]

Rerolling one to-hit with Str 4 to wound pales in comparison to rerolling to wound on Str 4 (which is statistically better than a power fist vs infantry).

 

Incorrect, unless you're talking about T3 infantry. And most T3 infantry (Aspect Warriors aside) has a poor enough save that special weapons aren't really needed against them, IMO. I'm assuming that you're talking about single lightning claw vs. single power fist here, since you specifically mention that's how you build your typical vanguard build.

 

That LRC should also not be under-estimated, especially with it's 35 point discount.

 

I'm 98% sure vanguard don't get that 35 point discount. I don't have my book on me at present, though, so I can't give a page reference.

[Lord_Reven]

I'm 98% sure vanguard don't get that 35 point discount. I don't have my book on me at present, though, so I can't give a page reference.

 

Yeah, only the RAS get the discount.