Striking fear into the hearts of Walkers everywhere

[Sarapham]

What happens when you blast their I down, do they strike at the same time as the TH in the next round then?

 

Yes they strike at Initiative 1 and therefore at the same time.

[Vlk]

I don't know about how you interpret Space Wolves fluff, but that's a pretty poor justification for the OP's claim.

 

...what on Terra does this have to do with anyone's fluff?

 

But fair enough:

 

Once upon a time, there was a young Rune Priest called Hjolldyr Necklacemaker. He was chosen by a Wolf Priest (whose name is unknown today; though there are rumours that it was Ulrik the Slayer himself) after being gravely wounded in a frantic night battle during which his village had been destroyed.

 

The origin of Hjolldyr's nickname is far from mysterious - he indeed used to make beautiful necklaces and trade them with other tribes. His products were kind of special, however. When he was about twelve, he found a seriously wounded armoured figure laying in snow next to a slain Thunderwolf. Little did he know that this stranger, who he somehow managed to wake up before calling for help of the other villagers, was an old Space Wolf Rune Priest from Logan Grimnar's Great Company who went for a hunt for an especially vicious and cunning beast. The Rune Priest knew that had it not been for the whelp with clever hands, he would have probably been succumbed to the Red Dream and be eaten by some of the many deadly Fenrisian predators. After the village's most skilled warriors, all grizzled veterans who had suffered many injuries themselves, patched the worst wounds with their crude instruments, the Rune Priest decided to give the boy a little honorary token of gratitude. It was a rune carved into a piece of wood with the slain Thunderwolf's fang.

 

Six years later, Hjolldyr tried to carve the rune - which, quite simply, seemed to look really nice on his bone jewellry - into every single wolf tooth of his new necklace which was supposed to be a gift for a respected leader of another tribe. When it was finished, he put it on to see the result. He was actually quite unsatisfied and decided to make another one but that never had a chance to happen. At that very moment, the village was brutally and unexpectedly attacked by the rivals of his tribe, the Longoars. Although Hjolldyr was not the best warrior of his tribe, he WAS a Fenrisian man so he picked up axe and ran to help with defence against the hated enemies. When he charged the nearest Longoar, the necklace began to glow. Suddenly, Hjolldyr saw every weakness in his enemy's stance, he could predict his every move and easily landed a terrible blow on his neck.

 

Noone could stand against Hjolldyr that day. His necklace kept glowing and the mysterious energy of hand-carved runes turned the young Fenrisian into a god of war. It almost seemed that he would save the day single-handedly but unfortunately, there were several archers among the enemies. The necklace could not warn him soon enough to deflect a pair of arrows that pierced his chest. That was before the Sky Warriors of Fenris came for him.

 

 

 

Even after he became a Space Wolf - and, with his psychic potential, also a well-known Rune Priest - a big part of him remained an artist and a craftsman. His Runic weapons became legendary (he even assisted with the reforging of Logan Grimnar's axe) and his talismans became famous among all the Wolves, but what he truly excelled at were his blessed necklaces. In the yellowed bones and teeth of Fenrisian wolves, he carved runes of such power that even his original piece seemed like a child's toy. To get a Wolf Teeth Necklace from Hjolldyr Necklacemaker, one had to get him several kegs of the finest ale that the Fang's countless breweries could make, which was only reserved for the private use of Wolf Lords and their retinues on celebratory occasions. Still, there were many who paid the price - and they paid it gladly, for with the magic of Hjolldyr's beautiful masterpieces, even such excellent warriors like the Wolf Lords themselves became deadlier. Absolutely no enemy, not even the mightiest Eldar farseers, daemonic Chaos Defilers (who suddenly became much easier to hit with Melta Bombs) nor the most terrible Tyranid monsters, was safe from Hjolldyr's subtle runes.

 

 

 

 

 

Alright, that's some fluff for ya. It's not codex-quality, but I'm not even English and it's almost 3AM here so it should do.

 

 

 

EDIT: I added the Melta Bomb bracketed sentence so that Marmande can enjoy the story a little more.

[Marmande]

I didn't read anything about Melta Bombs in that post. :jaw:

[Vlk]

I didn't read anything about Melta Bombs in that post. :jaw:

 

And I still don't know what does the fluff have to do with anything we're trying to figure out here. Life sucks .)

[Marmande]

My point was: Both of those abilities (OBEL and Bjorn's 5+ save)are heavily cemented in the fluff; using WTN to attach melta bombs more easily is most certainly not. Now, if GW answers my call and says that the enchanted necklace allows the wearer to spot openings in the walker's defense and place the bomb more easily, then fine. But what happened in the last thread smacked of ruleslawyering.

[Vlk]

My point was: Both of those abilities (OBEL and Bjorn's 5+ save)are heavily cemented in the fluff; using WTN to attach melta bombs more easily is most certainly not. Now, if GW answers my call and says that the enchanted necklace allows the wearer to spot openings in the walker's defense and place the bomb more easily, then fine. But what happened in the last thread smacked of ruleslawyering.

 

Well, the fluff problem is solved now. Maybe later I will write down a short story about how the Wolf Standards temporarily strengthen our power armour, that's a fluff-grey area too :jaw:

[Azatoth]

Dumb question, I do not have my rulebook handy:

 

Do Meltabombs even count as grenades? :jaw:

[winternight]

Have you read the fluff for a WTN Marmande?

 

"One who has triumphed in one of the contests of might held at the Fang may be awarded a wolftooth necklace in recognition of his martial excellence and athletic prowess."

 

Nothing in there about enchanted necklaces, just a recognition that the wearer is awesome. There is your fluff justification of the WTN allowing the wearer to hit walkers on a 3+; they are awesome.

 

I don't even see how this is a question, the rules as written are clear.

[Marmande]

Who said anything about grey areas in the fluff? :jaw:

 

 

Have you read the fluff for a WTN Marmande?

 

"One who has triumphed in one of the contests of might held at the Fang may be awarded a wolftooth necklace in recognition of his martial excellence and athletic prowess."

 

Nothing in there about enchanted necklaces, just a recognition that the wearer is awesome. There is your fluff justification of the WTN allowing the wielder to hit walkers on a 3+; they are awesome.

 

I don't even see how this is a question, the rules as written are clear.

 

That doesn't contribute anything meaningful to the argument at all, though?

 

EDIT:

 

 

Dumb question, I do not have my rulebook handy:

 

Do Meltabombs even count as grenades? :)

 

Yep, p. 63

[Vlk]

Who said anything about grey areas in the fluff? :jaw:

 

Me, in reaction to this:

 

"Both of those abilities (OBEL and Bjorn's 5+ save)are heavily cemented in the fluff; using WTN to attach melta bombs more easily is most certainly not." Thought that would be easy to spot.

 

Have you read the fluff for a WTN Marmande?

 

"One who has triumphed in one of the contests of might held at the Fang may be awarded a wolftooth necklace in recognition of his martial excellence and athletic prowess."

 

Nothing in there about enchanted necklaces, just a recognition that the wearer is awesome. There is your fluff justification of the WTN allowing the wearer to hit walkers on a 3+; they are awesome.

 

I don't even see how this is a question, the rules as written are clear.

 

...or that .)

[winternight]

I think this thread should be locked.

 

Yes the combination of WTN, Beastslayer and Meltabombs is very nasty for Walkers.

 

RAW.

 

Marmande is not adding anything to the discussion, he is simply being pig headed and confusing.

[Marmande]

Well, yes, because you brought it up:

 

First, does anybody else in the game have OBEL scouts? Does anybody else have a dread with saves like our Bjorn? Does anyone else put their Terminator squads in Drop Pods like we do? The argument "nobody else can do it, so you can't do it either" is worthless. Every Codex is in some way unique.

 

Basically you made a really poor analogy to something like attaching Melta Bombs using WTN.

 

EDIT:

 

 

I think this thread should be locked.

 

Yes the combination of WTN, Beastslayer and Meltabombs is very nasty for Walkers.

 

RAW.

 

Marmande is not adding anything to the discussion, he is simply being pig headed and confusing.

 

 

Excuse me? I'm at least playing devil's advocate here, whether you guys like it or not; all you've contributed is insults. I'm not trying to cheat you guys out of something, I just honestly believe the errata just refers to non-standard attacks like those made with anything from a CCW to a Thunder Hammer, but grenades always need a 6 (unless stunned or immob'd).

 

If you want to argue RAW, that only makes it easier for me.

[Vlk]

Well, yes, because you brought it up:

 

First, does anybody else in the game have OBEL scouts? Does anybody else have a dread with saves like our Bjorn? Does anyone else put their Terminator squads in Drop Pods like we do? The argument "nobody else can do it, so you can't do it either" is worthless. Every Codex is in some way unique.

 

Basically you made a really poor analogy to something like attaching Melta Bombs using WTN.

 

It was just to illustrate how lame it is to say: "We can't do it so you can't do it". We have an item nobody else has. It does something unique because it says so in the Codex/Errata. You do not have an item like that. You have other items that do something else because it says so in your Codex/Errata. That's pretty much it. It does not matter whether anyone else can do it or not as long as it's written in the Codex/Errata. It does not matter how well fluff-justified is what is written in the Codex/Errata - the very point of codices is that each has some unique stuff not available to the others.

 

I don't know how to put it any simplier .)

[Marmande]

If it was in the codex itself, I'd be arguing differently Vlk, but this honestly strikes me as an error in the FAQ. I don't think many of us forget that hilarious period where Counter Attack and Furious Charge stacked and contradicted a bunch of earlier rulings, eh?

[Blarmb]

If it was in the codex itself, I'd be arguing differently Vlk, but this honestly strikes me as an error in the FAQ. I don't think many of us forget that hilarious period where Counter Attack and Furious Charge stacked and contradicted a bunch of earlier rulings, eh?

 

Except it's not in the FAQ it's in the Errata. FAQ is soft content, Errata is intended to be as definitive as the codex. If you don't like it house rule it in your group. There is nothing wrong that, the rule book even suggestions doing so with rules that don't suit the players. The point of the game is to have fun so do whatever you need to have that happen. However, the fact is the rules as currently written make for a very clear interaction between the Wolf Tooth Necklace and Grenades vs Walkers. It's not "Rules Lawyering" it's just what the rules say. They're fine to change if you don't like them, but that doesn't somehow make the default rules "Wrong" in any sense.

[Marmande]

But that's what I mean. Using only exactly what the rules say can lead to stuff like:

 

-Exorcist tanks cannot fire except at targets directly above them because you draw line of sight from the barrel

-Tanks with a turret-mounted template weapon cannot fire it because the template would touch a friendly model (the tank firing it)

-Wraithguard/lords cannot fire their guns because you draw line of sight to their eyes

-Wolf Lords with a Thunder Hammer riding a Thunderwolf mount only counts as Strength 9 because the neither the FAQ nor the codex explicitly confirm that the Strength bonus is added, just the Toughness

-Etc.

 

I think using WTN to affect grenades, a non-standard attack, is ruleslawyering because it's not intended, and the previous FAQ ruled against it. To me, it obviously only accounts for making normal attacks.

[Aeddon]

...If you want to argue RAW, that only makes it easier for me.

How exactly? I get that the BRB says (page 73) that

"A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on the roll of 6."

 

but the Space Wolves Codex says (page 62) that

"...a model with a wolftooth necklace always hits on a role of 3+ regardless of comparative Weapon Skills."

 

than in the Space Wolves FAQ: Errata (page 1) it says

"Page 62, Wolftooth Necklace, replace the last sentence with: Against models with a WS value, a model with a wolftooth necklace always hits in close combat

on the roll of a 3+."

 

Now I'm not sure if your gaming group does things differently but everyone I know who plays has agreed that Codex trumps BRB and Errata trumps Codex. You might see this as an omission by GW but the current RAW clearly states that a model with a Wolftooth Necklace does in fact hit a Walker with Meltabombs on a 3+. I'm not sure how this can be explained any clearer.

 

 

...I think using WTN to affect grenades, a non-standard attack, is ruleslawyering because it's not intended, and the previous FAQ ruled against it. To me, it obviously only accounts for making normal attacks.

Whether or not it is intended is your personal opinion. Trying to claim it as anything more without any specific proof is at best, obnoxious.

[Marmande]

Have you been reading my arguments? I know exactly what the FAQ states, but I don't think you guys are abusing the use of the word 'always' to apply to grenades as well. That's it.

[Grey Mage]

I don't know about how you interpret Space Wolves fluff, but that's a pretty poor justification for the OP's claim.

Its not a fluff claim, its straightforward.

 

If the enemy has a WS, a Character with a WTN hits on a 3+, always.

If theyre attacking a grenade, this doesnt just magically dissapear... they still hit on a 3+ -codex rules overriding BRB rules.

 

There is no abuse, its very straightforward. That you have a preconceived idea of how it should work has nothing to do with how it does in fact work.

 

Its also no different than how its worked since 5th edition started for that matter, as this was also in the previous rules+FAQ.

[Marmande]

Does anyone still have access to the old FAQ ever since it was taken down?

[Aeddon]

Have you been reading my arguments? I know exactly what the FAQ states, but I don't think you guys are abusing the use of the word 'always' to apply to grenades as well. That's it.

Yup, read the whole thing. Chalk full of opinions which you seem to think overrides RAW. Pardon me for not taking your word over published material from GW.

 

And now you're looking for outdated FAQs to back your claim? Give me a break...

[Marmande]

Yup, read the whole thing. Chalk full of opinions which you seem to think overrides RAW. Pardon me for not taking your word over published material from GW.

 

And pardon me for not immediately agreeing with the hive mind, yeesh.

 

And now you're looking for outdated FAQs to back your claim? Give me a break...

 

Well, for the sake of argument, if the 3rd Edition FAQ said that grenades didn't work with WTN and now the 5th Edition FAQ only uses more generalized language, which is more likely:

 

1) GW decides that Space Wolves are suddenly much better at placing Melta Bombs, an act that has little to do with the martial prowess with which WTN are bestowed for

 

2) A use of unclear language in the errata, since grenades aren't mentioned at all.

 

Precedent has a lot of power in all legal arguments.

[Blarmb]

But that's what I mean. Using only exactly what the rules say can lead to stuff like:

 

-Exorcist tanks cannot fire except at targets directly above them because you draw line of sight from the barrel

-Tanks with a turret-mounted template weapon cannot fire it because the template would touch a friendly model (the tank firing it)

-Wraithguard/lords cannot fire their guns because you draw line of sight to their eyes

-Wolf Lords with a Thunder Hammer riding a Thunderwolf mount only counts as Strength 9 because the neither the FAQ nor the codex explicitly confirm that the Strength bonus is added, just the Toughness

-Etc.

 

I think using WTN to affect grenades, a non-standard attack, is ruleslawyering because it's not intended, and the previous FAQ ruled against it. To me, it obviously only accounts for making normal attacks.

 

The rules are what they are, and they aren't perfect. Certainly they contain some very silly things that make the game nigh-unplayable without some "patching". They also have room for interpenetration in some cases. This means that in some cases the game can't function with what are effectively house rules, other times the game just functions better with them (even if it would be playable without them). None of those things change what the rules are.

 

In the case of the WTN/Grenades issue, the rules are pretty clear cut and don't render the game unplayable. If it was a rule that somehow caused the engine to totally collapse despite being RAW then certainly somebody would be quite silly for trying to play it that way. However, that isn't what we're dealing with, we're just dealing with a rule that goes against what some individuals might find the most intuitive way for it to play out. In that case it doesn't demand a house rule in the way something that makes the game unplayable does. If you think your game will be improved by changing the rule, please do so.I'm sure you'll enjoy the game more for it and you won't be do anything wrong. It's your play style and it's just fine. There isn't any need to claim that people who play it by the rule are doing anything negative.

 

 

As a side note "Intent" in this case (and many others) is just plain unknowable. You can wager a guess, but you could be wrong. I'd wager a guess that Saga of the Hunter was intended to allow ICs to attach and outflank (and probably OBEL) with scout squads. I may be right I may be wrong, who knows. All I have to go by is either the standard rules which say "No" or me and my group could decide to house rule it and say "Yes". Either way is a perfectly fine way of playing it, and neither changes what the rules in the book actually say.

[Marmande]

The rules are what they are, and they aren't perfect. Certainly they contain some very silly things that make the game nigh-unplayable withing some "patching". They also have room for interpenetration in some cases. This means that in some cases the game can't function with what are effectively house rules, other times they just function better. None of these things change what the rules are.

 

In the case of the WTN/Grenades issue, the rules are pretty clear cut and don't render the game unplayable. If it was a rule that somehow caused the engine to totally collapse despite being RAW then certainly somebody would be quite silly for trying to play it that way. However that isn't what we're dealing with, we're just dealing with a rule that goes against what some individuals might find the most intuitive way for it to play out. In that case it doesn't demand a house rule in the way something that makes the game unplayable does. If you think your game will be improved by changing the rule, please do so.I'm sure you'll enjoy the game more for it and you won't be do anything wrong. It's your play style and it's just fine. However there isn't any need to claim that people who play it by the rule are doing anything negative.

 

As a side note "Intent" in this case (and many others) is just plain unknowable. You can wager a guess, but you could be wrong. I'd wager a guess that Saga of the Hunter was intended to allow ICs to attach and outflank (and probably OBEL) with scout squads. I may be right I may be wrong, who knows. All I have to go by is either the standard rules which say "No" or me and my group could decide to house rule it and say "Yes". Either way is a perfectly fine way of playing it, and neither changes what the rules in the book actually say.

 

And I will say that while I still respectfully disagree, this has been the most respectful response I've gotten yet, for which I am thankful. :cry: And, in all honesty, this rules conflict probably won't arise too often as I'm sure most people would prefer to deal with Dreadnoughts via shooting or Chainfists.

 

Also for the record I found a copy of the 3rd Edition FAQ, and all it mentions about WTN is that it only works against vehicles with a Weapon Skill; so, neither I nor Grey Mage were right.

[Beef]

When the hell did this Forum suddenly become all about the Rules vs Fluff discussions. I have seen enough of those over the last month to last me a life time. We get it their are fluffy rules and some not so fluffy rules. Who cares. Everybody just get over it.

Lets get back to doing what we do best. Let try rememebr why we are in this forum

 

a) This is a forum to discuss how awsome we are

<_< to show off our lovely painted and converted mini's

c) to make fun of certain dress wearing marines

d) drink ale and fight (but not argue like women over rules vs fluff)

 

So those who think its fluffy to be able to attach melta bombs on walkers on a 3+, hey thats cool because we SW are that awsome.

Those who think its un fluffy or broken please feel free not to do it. No point trying to justify these points to each other because we SW are almost as stubborn as we are AWESOME