Honour Guard

[LardO'Blood]

Im a bit confused about how I should use honor guard, run them on from reserve in the later game? Drop pod? Land raider? With chapter master?

Please help!

[norngahl]

Im a bit confused about how I should use honor guard

 

Use them to fill your bookshelf. They have no other use. They are too expensive, have no ablative wounds and no invul save. They totally suck, but if you really want to try them you should go with relic blades in a land raider, chapter master with RB+AA+SS. That would be my personal choice if I had to take them. But at usual games beside from fun games, leave them at home.

[mowglie]

For me it's not that they're too expensive, it's that the targets that they're efficient against (i.e. large or multi-wound units with good saves and no power weapons) aren't units we have a problem dealing with without the Honour Guard.

 

Basically, they're overkill against anything that isn't an assault specialist, and their lack of an invuln save combined with a very low model count (point-for-point) makes them pretty poor vs assault specialists (who will typically have power weapons).

 

If you really want to use them, I agree with the above poster. LR + Relic Blade(s)

[KhorneHunter57x]

I think that you need to come up with what you want your Honor Guard to do before you determine your method of delivery. With what you want them to do for you in mind, then it will be easier for you and us to determine how you want to get the job you have selected for them done.

 

I have used HG as a footslogger fire magnet to distract from the real "meat" of my Ultramarine army (the Tac Squads in Rhinos and my Dreadnoughts) as most of the opposing Lascannon, Melta, Plasma, and Lance fire will be directed toward the Honor Guard instead of my vehicles.

 

However, as I do not think that this is the use you are looking for, I would take a look at Captain Idaho's Using Uber Units Librarium Article here:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...showarticle=416

 

It has proven to be an invaluable set of tips for me, and it is an article I would suggest to anyone who doesn't know how their uber units fit with the rest of their army.

[Giga]

Honor Guard are a "fun" unit, really. They specialize at killing heavy infantry, such as MEQ, but are otherwise quite weak. The fact they require a chapter master only makes it worse. Their price also means you're pretty much forced to take a land raider, or they'll end up footslogging and getting owned by volume of fire and all the AP1/2 stuff around.

 

Overall, you're much better off taking assault terminators (or even regular terminators) instead.

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

If your Elites end up more expensive than Hammernators in a Raider, then go for the Termies in the Raider.

[Giga]

If your Elites end up more expensive than Hammernators in a Raider, then go for the Termies in the Raider.

Honor guard pretty much require a land raider to be able to reach combat. Hammernators can at least footslog their way over the table due to their 3++ save, but poor honor guard would be doomed as soon as they lost their transport. Just think of all that plasma, melta, and AP1-2 blasts being thrown at them.

 

Hence, almost invariably, the honor guard is going to end up being more expensive then assault terminators, at which point they just stop being worth it and one is better off getting assault termies or something else entirely.

[Voltaire]

Honor guard are actually more suited to a shooting role than close combat as you can equip the entire squad with AGLs, which makes them excellent ranged elite killers. They're also effecitve transport slayers, and MC killers.

Honestly they are far to expensive to use in CC, dont buy RBs because your forcing yourself into CC where HG die very quickly from PW's.

 

 

Stick with a razorback, or rhino to tote around a shooty HGuard squad. Thats how you use them.

[Captain Idaho]

I disagree. A Rhino or Razorback are perfectly reasonable. Rarely it will get taken down first turn, especially if you simply place your another Rhino in front in deployment. A single turn's movement garners 12", which can be combined for a second turn move if the Rhino isn't immobile and you need to, or disembark turn 2, move and then assault. That is a total 26" movement with a single turn inside a transport.

 

I'm going to write a tactica on utilising Honour Guard, just as soon as I have the spare time. For now, here is how I make use of them:

 

Load Out:

 

Firstly the use of a Chapter Master accompanying Honour Guard makes the unit alot more resilient. A Chapter Master has a decent save and 3 wounds so you can afford (and it is reccommended) to put any AP2 hits from shooting onto him, and I would put bolter wounds onto him also as bad luck and torrents of fire can reduce the size of the squad. This is a risky tactic of course, but one all Space Marines players should consider for all their units.

 

Now, I personally use a Relic Blade and Storm Shield on my Master so his survivability is that little bit consistant. I have been known to put melta and lascannon hits onto him to protect the unit, and most of the time it pays off. Actually, it's the bolter shots that cause all the damage! (seriously, how can I failed 2 out of 4 2+ saves every game?!)

 

The real protection of a Master with the HG comes from his combat prowas and initiative value. A Relic Blade plus the attack bonus from a Chapter Banner and a charge grants 5 attacks at S6, hitting before most opposing models on a 3+. This reduces the amount return attacks at initiative 4 on your Honour Guard and kills models that might strike back later on (or in the next turn before you in the case of Eldar etc). Most importantly, putting the Master in base to base contact with a unit's hidden powerfist or weapon means the rest of the squad is not going to have it's 2+ save taken away, whilst the 3+ invulnverable save protects the Master. Remember Space Marine Sergeants only get 2 attacks hitting on a 4+ with a powerfist so the odds of the Master actually dying are quite low.

 

Secondly, as a Independent Character, any attacks directed at him aren't directed at the squad thereby increasing the survivability of the unit.

 

The squad should be kept to just power weapons in my view, as adding Relic Blades get's very expensive. The exception to this is the Chapter Champion who should have either a Relic Blade or Thunder Hammer. I went with the Relic Blade as he still gets to hit at initiative and wounds most things on a 2+, as well as keeping the power weapon and bolt pistol option if I am striking T3 troops. The other exception is always take a Chapter Banner!

 

This is where the unit becomes very powerful. The Chapter Banner acts as a multiplier, with each HG having 5 attacks on the charge. The Champion and Master both hit the majority of targets on a 3+ and wound on a 2+ at initiative 4 and 5 respectively. Together they get 10 attacks, with a further 20 attacks from 4 more HG.

 

The cost of said unit is 225pts, very affordable I think you will find. The Master is 170pts, which is cheaper than the Vulkan option most people who run Thunder Hammer Terminators always seem to bring to the table.

 

Using them on the Table Top

 

Whilst some people think Space Marines excel at killing swathes of infantry and therefore HG aren't required in a Space Marine list, to me this depends on your play style, army build and requirements. I find Space Marines generally excel at taking out choice hard targets with their shooting instead, just like the fluff really!

 

If the HG are storming into opposing infantry you don't have to worry about killing them. Opponents often back away from HG or heisitate since the infantry in an army are genuinely important to winning the game (including non-Troops choices).

 

They are also more than capable of charging into an enemy assault unit and killing it off, or making it combat inefficient even if the HG die.

 

Basically they are best used against any target in the opposing army except Harelquins, Genestealers, Howling Banshees, Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrants, Trygons, 5+ strong Rending Tyranid Warriors or equivilent, Keeper's of Secrets, Bloodthirsters, Bloodcrushers and Bloodletters, Fiends and Daemonettes of Slaanesh, AV12 Walkers and Terminators with nothing but Lightning Claws. Anything else is fair game, though some tough targets don't get taken like massed Chosen with Power weapons or Possessed with power weapons but are a no go for HG.

 

You might notice out of the units I mentioned above (off the top of my head) only the MCs are definitely a choice target for TH Terminators. The sheer amount of attacks of Genestealers, Howling Banshees, Harelquins etc will take down at least a couple Terminators before they strike, severley limiting the units ability to take out their target.

 

And HG have the capacity to hug cover and fire their bolters, and strike first against all those bad-ass targets except Howling Banshee and Harlequins. Then things do go the HG's way.

 

I concentrate against my opponents infantry, things like Tactical Marines, Ork Boys, Sternguard etc. These are often units that you cannot remove quickly, or in the case of Orks, there is another unit standing next to them! Use the HG as a Bully unit and concentrate your armies firepower on choice targets. This gives you the ability to take on the opponents army with HG, either chompng through an objective holder or launching a spear head, for relatively cheap points. For 395pts + transport (Razorback for 40pts) you can take down an flank or objective holding force, or blunt an opposing assault. If using a Landraider you can turn it's guns to supporting the rest of the army.

 

In a Space Marines army this is important as you can maximise the rest of your force to concentrating on perform another task.

 

To get them into assault, the best way is a transport. In a Landraider you can pick and choose your target as per any other assault unit. In a Razorback or Rhino you just need to be a little clever with deployment; put it behind another Rhino and voila, blocked LOS. Even if he can draw a bead on the HG transport, you get a 4+ save and the forgiving damage table.

 

This is a little brief, I will get cracking on a more in depth guide and post it up (am working on a Celestial Lions project right now but I will get on it).

[Hazard]

Just a thought: when(if ever!) new DA codex comes round, and if they actualy get honor guard, Azrael led HG will be deadly! With chapter banner you can get like 5 power weapon attacks on the charge 2 + 1(bolt pistol) + 1(Banner) + 1(Charge) and have 4++ save!

[TyrionTheImp]

Just a thought: when(if ever!) new DA codex comes round, and if they actualy get honor guard, Azrael led HG will be deadly! With chapter banner you can get like 5 power weapon attacks on the charge 2 + 1(bolt pistol) + 1(Banner) + 1(Charge) and have 4++ save!

 

That's assuming Azrael keeps his current rules set. The current DA Dex lets you take Normal company vets with all power weaps, or a command squad with a banner, apothecary, and 2 power weapons, and if for some reason you bring a company master, a company champ. Of course, most of the rest of the codex sucks, but there are options like that. If the new dex had an honor guard for Azrael then yes, it would be pretty awesome.

 

As for the current C:SM Honor Guard, I personally don't like them just because they're expensive and don't fit my play style.

[Captain Idaho]

No more expensive than Terminators and with the added benefit you can use cheaper transport if you have to.

[mowglie]

I disagree. A Rhino or Razorback are perfectly reasonable.

 

I really quite strongly disagree, but we've been over that before. I'll discuss in more detail when you post your tactica, I guess, so as not to derail this particular topic.

[ShinyRhino]

I like the idea of them, but I'd only run them cheap. They all come with power weaons, which is nice. I'd buy each one an AGL, and keep the bolters. Combined with a Chapter Master, they'd make for a brutal Rhino Drive By unit (AGLS are assault weapons), or an objective-defending hardpoint unit.

[mowglie]

As I said in the Chapter Master thread, with an AGL (I keep getting mixed up with the ones Scout Bikers get!) they're over 50 points a pop. Hardly cheap. Slot issues notwithstanding, there are other units in the codex that hit a lot harder for a lot less.

[Captain Idaho]

You have to have a Chapter Banner, regardless of how cheap you want them. A Champion is so good that you also should consider giving him a better weapon too. The rest of the squad should be happy with power weapons.

[Voltaire]

Agreed in upgrading the champion. I also give him digital weapons because 10pts could decide whether or not you kill that Daemon or Tyrant.

 

 

Otherwise they can keep their p-swords, as they're only anti-infantry units, nothing else.

[LardO'Blood]

Based on this advice my idea:

Chapter master with thunderhammer

Honor guard, relic blade on champion, chapter standard

CC?

[Voltaire]

No invulnerable, means greater risk of losing a 45 - 75pt model out of an already miniscule squad.

 

 

True a C-master with a hammer is impressive, but I would rather give him a relic blade instead so that he can strike at I5, and buy the TH for the CC because it's half the price of a regular hammer.

 

 

Still a chapter banner is a must if your expecting to enter close combat --whether your HG are shooty or not-- as an extra scored wound is invaluable.

[ShinyRhino]

Based on this advice my idea:

Chapter master with thunderhammer

Honor guard, relic blade on champion, chapter standard

CC?

 

Don't put the hammer on the Master. You're wasting his second-best stat...Initiative. Relic blade indtead. S6 at I5.

[Captain Idaho]

Relic Blade all the way!

 

Remember, with the Champion's Relic Blade as well, you get 10 such attacks on the charge. Ouch.

[greatcrusade08]

Relic Blade all the way!

 

Remember, with the Champion's Relic Blade as well, you get 10 such attacks on the charge. Ouch.

 

against MEQ thats 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound, no saves.. the extra WS on the champion means hes the obvious choice for the relic blade (its the same cost as putting it on someone else)

[thade]

Don't put the hammer on the Master. You're wasting his second-best stat...Initiative. Relic blade indtead. S6 at I5.

 

^This. Init 5 is great and Relic Blades were made for it. (How I miss relic blades.)

[Velkairiwyth]

Ah, Relic Blades :)

 

The only army(ies) I think a fist would be better for using against is Nids and other marines. Nids cos your going last anyway, and Marines for the IK factor (Although its a diceoff cos youll be getting hit at the same init by other fists)

 

Against Eldar though, S6 = instakilly :)

 

One thing I would consider doing if investing in an honour guard, is to have my second HQ slot be used for Khan... Furious Charge means you get extra initiative and strength on the charge. Those guards are now I5, S5 and the Relic blade(s) are S7 - plus Khans insta kill ability has worked wonders for me many times... This lil combo is awesome against MCs as they tend to have a lower Init (e.g Trygon = 4 - with 4 Power Weapon wielding guard hitting with 5 attacks at s5 on the charge, a champion hitting at S7 and Khan hitting at S7 and instakilling on a 6 - with no save possible for said Trygon = all the nummyness!)

 

Then again - I would hit the Trygon with a Command Squad to reasonable effect... But with lower S weaponry it is much more likely that MC will survive and strike back, and if it does - the one thing the command squad has over the HG is Feel No Pain which is wasted.

 

Im rambling again...

 

I want to try out Honour Guard again after all this theorycrafting ^.^

[LardO'Blood]

My revised idea, Chapter master with relic blade and SS

honor guard with chapter banner, relic blade on champion

Question: Does the banner replace a weapon? or is it just harder to model?

Question: Would adding a bare chaplain be worth it? Or is that to points heavy?