Spearhead, Transports and Grey Knights

[Gentlemanloser]

Wildfire bought up something very interesting over in the Space Wolf Forum;

 

I find this quote very interesting: "When selected as part of a spearhead, dedicated transports count as Heavy Support units instead, and therefore are selected without a transported unit." Do I correctly interpret this as meaning that they do not count as dedicated transports any more? This would be veeeery interesting if so, as one could now take units whose lack of a transport has until now hindered them. Such as using the Crusher Spearhead to get a single rhino a Iron Priest squad.

 

So could we select Rhinos for our PAGK and Chimeras for our GKT, as long as we're selecting them for a Spearhead?

 

And does 'selected as part of a Spearhead' actually mean selected as part of a formation? Or is this just a generic rule every time you play a Spearhead game?

[Justicar Valius]

Part of a spearhead formation. For example GK Land raider and 2 rhinos in an outrider spearhead, all can carry GK.

 

Also, this seems quite good on the RAW side of things although I am not sure if it was done on purpose so you may get a few people going

"Oh stop being a rules lawyer, it's not rules as intended!"

 

Just remember you can say you envision spearhead as grab all the tanks and all the troops and charge in a rushed plan. You can do it, it's wether your opponent agrees to it or not that is the question (seeing as there are no tournaments with spearhead in as far as i know).

[Gentlemanloser]

Transport and mobility is one of the largest weaknesses of the current Grey Knights.

 

I'm open to any 'official' way to abate that.

 

I might look at the formations in more detail now (as long as you can afford the points, you can take mroe than 1 can't you?), to see how I can get some non LR transports.

 

Does Spearhead change the FoC slots at all? I can this being problematic, by sucking up all our Heavy Slots, which I think I'd like to use Dreadnoughts in formations on.

 

:/

[Justicar Valius]

Any unit in a spearhead doesnt count towards FOC is the way i read it. Also Everything is 0-whatever including troops and HQ.

 

Also you can only take one of each spearhead at maximum even if you have the points for more. However that means you can take a maximum of 12 spearheads.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nice! :)

 

So as many infiltrating Dreads as I can afford, plus Rhinos/Chimera transports for my troops.

 

I'm liking the sound of Spearhead now, other than it just being "more power to the Guard". :P

[Justicar Valius]

Meh, the guard deserve some times when the game suits them. They have to have one over the astarates at some point.

 

Your job may be thankless, but if you're willing to give it your all, you might just buy enough time for the astarates to take all the credit.

 

I'll be playing spearhead in a few hours, my list is in the armies of the imperium section, I'll say how it goes on there.

[Gentlemanloser]

Seen! ;)

 

Interesitng! Let us know how it went! :P

 

Not wanting to make another thread, or to really post aobut an army list, I've had a little look at the formations, and am thinking aobut something like this for a 2K game;

 

Mechanised Assault Spearhead

Chimera - GKBC (PH/HH), 5 x GKT

Rhino - Justicar (Frags), 9 x PAGK

Rhino - Justicar (Frags), 9 x PAGK

 

Ambush Spearhead

GK Dread, MM, Incinerator, EA, Blessed

GK Dread, MM, Incinerator, EA, Blessed

GK Dread, MM, Incinerator, EA, Blessed

 

Inquisitor (Psycannon), 2 x Mystics, Gun Servitor (P Cannon)

 

Justicar, 4 x PAGK (2 x Psycannon)

 

 

The idea is to have Infiltrated Dreads with MM's 18" away with 3+ Cover Saves, who are able to move, run and shoot thier MM. Supported by the home objective holders of a mini purgations squad and Mystic Inquisitor (for anti DP shenanigans).

 

With 2 full PAGK and a 6 man GKT squad coming on fully mech, turn 1, by outflank.

 

:)

 

Thoughts?

[Inquisitor =D=]

The idea is to have Infiltrated Dreads with MM's 18" away with 3+ Cover Saves, who are able to move, run and shoot thier MM. Supported by the home objective holders of a mini purgations squad and Mystic Inquisitor (for anti DP shenanigans).

 

With 2 full PAGK and a 6 man GKT squad coming on fully mech, turn 1, by outflank.

 

:P

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Thoughts? Thoughts?.....

 

Freakin' Awesome!

 

Yep... thats bout all I got. Now to work with me! :)

 

=]D[=

[Gentlemanloser]

Heh, I might even forgo (depending the Spearhead FoC) the two scoring units, and drop the PAGK and Rhinos for two more Chimeras and GKT. ;)

 

And just aim to wipe out my opponents lines from a pincer of outflanking chimeras carrying 18 GKT, and 3 GK Dreads. ;)

[Inquisitor Fox]

One problem with that list is the following rule, from the DLable PDF on the GW site with the spearhead formations:

 

Page 1, paragraph 5:

 

"Unless stated otherwise, all of the units in a spearhead must be chosen from the same entry in the army list, though they may take different options and upgrades."

 

Ergo as I read it, that mechanised assault formation isn't valid as the Rhinos and Chimeras are different entries. It seems that we must use one to three of the same unit type (all rhinos, all chimeras) unless the Spearhead allows different types (like the Outrider Spearhead).

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't Rhino's and Chimeras come form the same entry? Dedicated Transports? ;)

[Inquisitor Fox]

By that argument we'd say all "Heavy Supports" are the same 'entry' ... which to me just seems silly by extension. I always consider the Dedicated Transports section to be made up of multiple entries, Land Raider, Chimera and Rhino. The same entry with multiple selections would be closer to say, Orbital Bombardment ;)

 

If your group lets you get away with it, more power to ya *chuckles* Just the way I read the rule it seems to not work.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thing is (assuming this is the way they invisnged the shift from Dedicated to Heavy) for dedicated Transports, there's usually an option to take multiple version of them, in a single entry.

 

Like you could have three seperate Elite Inquisitor units, two who have taken Chimeras as Dedicated Transports, and one with a LR. But all three would be seperated from thier (Elite slot) units, and made Heavy Slots.

 

But they all came from the same unit type, and the same units options.

 

;)

 

Personally, I just don't tihnk they worded that section well enough. Especially witht he multiple editions of codexes we still have, all with varying subtle differences.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I agree, the section is definately poorly worded and could have benefited from a few examples ;)

 

By the main rule book though, the dedicated transport is considered a seperate unit from the unit that purchases it.. so what we have there is actually two unit types (Inquisitor and Retinue, Transport) in one Force Org Entry (Elites). This concept is reinforced by wording of a paragraph on page 36 of the White Dwarf: "Multiple Unit Choices Note that occasionally a Codex will allow a player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (such as dedicated transports). Apart from counting as a single choice when selected, these units operate and count as seperate units in all other respects."

 

With your example of two Chimeras and one Land Raider, all of which are transporting Inquisitors with Retinue, there are actually six units there, from three unit selections (Inquisitor and Retinues, Chimeras, Land Raider), that occupy three force organisation slots (Elites).

 

What they're saying about units options is say, how you equip your Chimeras or War Walkers/Sentinels/Falcons/Leman Russ variants/etc. It's much clearer in how they've printed the more modern books, where even the Dedicated Transports section is quite clearly broken up into seperate entries. Take a look at the Space Marine Codex for what I mean.

 

Personally I'd say that that qualifies for the Outrider Spearhead, but not the Mechanized Assault Spearhead. Now you CAN do a Spearhead with just two units though as opposed to three (technically you can do it for just 1 unit, but then it can never be within 4" of another unit from the same Spearhead).

[Gentlemanloser]

That is going to need some additional clarification methinks. :rolleyes:

 

Come on GW, I've not even read the WD yet, and we've just been hashing out some stuff we just theorising on, and yet we already spotted an issue with the 4" Spearhead rule. :)

 

Time for new play testers? :P

 

(Besides, the more I think about Mechanised Assault, the more I like the idea of 2-3 Chimeras all loaded with GKT. ;) )

[Judanas]

I'm interested in trying an Ambush Spearhead with Penitent Engines

 

Hi, I have ⑨ Penitent Engines within possible charge distance of your lines first turn. They may be fragile but damn, they will most likely wreck some tanks before they fall.

[glsn]

A problem with the list posted above. You have to have units that can take the transports normally in the main list. I would just keep the same tanks but give them a different spearhead.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'll have to reread the formation, but from what I remember, it implied you just ned to buy any unti to go insdie them. Which makes sense, as the tanks are heavy lost, non dedicated now.

[Inquisitor Fox]

The rules don't say that it must be a unit that can take the transport normally. They say "For each vehicle taken, you must take one unit of any type, from one or more entries in the army list, that can { be } transported in the vehicle."

 

Ergo, you take the unit of transports. You take three units of whatever that can ride in said transports (no termie armor in rhinos, etc) and stick them in it. Call it good. :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Hey guys, why don't we just through caution and points to the wind, and go for maximum overkill;

 

HQ:

 

Grandmaster w/nemesis force weapon+chainfist

(175 points)

Terminator w/incinerator, 3 x Terminators

(199 points)

 

Brother-Captain Stern

(141 points)

Terminator w/incinerator, 3 x Terminators

(199 points)

 

Troops:

 

(3) 2 x IST's w/meltaguns, 3 x IST's

(70 points each)

 

Armoured Assault Spearhead

 

3 x Rhino w/extra armour+smokes

(232 points)

 

Mechanised Assault Spearhead

 

2 x Landraider Crusader w/smokes

(516 points)

 

Total: 1,750 points

 

Plan is to run the IST's onto objectives, and to kill enemy armour where they find it. Meanwhile, Terminators Outflank in the Landraiders and eat anything they find.