JoTWW vs Enhance

[BladeEncarmine]

Hello all, quick and possibly very stupid question:

 

Does the initative boost from a Eldar Warlock's Enhance passive power apply when I'm making a "run from the hungry planet" roll from JoTWW?

 

This popped up on me last night when my runes failed me against Njal and he tried to eat my seer council.

 

We diced it off and I lost (not that JoTWW is especially effective against Eldar), but it bugged me a bit and I like having answers :RTBBB: .

 

Thanks in advance.

[stinkenheim]

i would say no for the same reason that power fists, furious charge etc do not alter the models I when it comes to characteristic tests.

[Grey Mage]

I would say yes- its not a peice of wargear that changes when you attack, but an actual increase in the stat itself.

[stinkenheim]

i ws under the impression enhance was a psychic power that boosted your stats. or is it one of the pesky warlock powers?

 

showing my lack of knowledge on eldar here, been years since i looked at their dex.

 

if it requires it to be cast then i would still say no, if its a permanent boost then its iffy but i would likely let it go and give them the benefit of the doubt...

[Morticon]

Im with GM on this. Seems to boost your natural stats.

[Grey Mage]

i ws under the impression enhance was a psychic power that boosted your stats. or is it one of the pesky warlock powers?

 

showing my lack of knowledge on eldar here, been years since i looked at their dex.

 

if it requires it to be cast then i would still say no, if its a permanent boost then its iffy but i would likely let it go and give them the benefit of the doubt...

Its a permanent effect on the entire squad.

[nurglez]

I was under the opinion eldar were generally initiative 5, if it does boost them to 6, does it actually matter as a 6 will fail anyway?

 

If im wrong let me know, dont know much about eldar to be honest.

[Grey Mage]

I was under the opinion eldar were generally initiative 5, if it does boost them to 6, does it actually matter as a 6 will fail anyway?

 

If im wrong let me know, dont know much about eldar to be honest.

Warlocks, like gaurdians, are normally I 4. Aspect Warriors are I5, 6 on the Exarchs... the difference between civilians and trained warriors.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You always use the natural stat for initiative/characteristic tests. Enhance modifies the stat, it's not a permanent change. For example an eldar player could simply choose not to use Enhance for whatever reason. There are some abilities that permanently change a stat but Enhance is not one of them.

 

0b

[Grey Mage]

You always use the natural stat for initiative/characteristic tests. Enhance modifies the stat, it's not a permanent change. For example an eldar player could simply choose not to use Enhance for whatever reason. There are some abilities that permanently change a stat but Enhance is not one of them.

 

0b

Sorry, I cant seem to find the page on that one... iniative tests *pg. 8* and modifiers *pg. 7* say nothing about that. Can you provide this?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A model/unit's characteritics are listed under it's entry. These are all basic and do not count any modifiers unless the codex specifically says so. For example a Space Marine is S4. If you equip him with a power fist it doubles his basic strength. To further support this and it is explicitly stated in the rules if the same Marine charges and benefits from Furious Charge then his strength is S9 (2*S4 + 1), it's not S10 (2*S5). The previous Tyranid codex had some options that permanently modified a characteristic which is not the case for Enhance since as I pointed out an eldar player can always choose not to use it, or might forget... Otherwise you could run into cases of rules bending such as hitting a high initiative model with a thunderhammer then JotWW it the next turn and claiming said model must test on I1.

 

0b

[Grey Mage]

A model/unit's characteritics are listed under it's entry. These are all basic and do not count any modifiers unless the codex specifically says so. For example a Space Marine is S4. If you equip him with a power fist it doubles his basic strength. To further support this and it is explicitly stated in the rules if the same Marine charges and benefits from Furious Charge then his strength is S9 (2*S4 + 1), it's not S10 (2*S5). The previous Tyranid codex had some options that permanently modified a characteristic which is not the case for Enhance since as I pointed out an eldar player can always choose not to use it, or might forget... Otherwise you could run into cases of rules bending such as hitting a high initiative model with a thunderhammer then JotWW it the next turn and claiming said model must test on I1.

 

0b

Actually... I have seen that done, and not just with JotWW either- also hit and run for instance.

 

So again... page numbers?

[Hellios]

As an Eldar player I agree with GM :P but I would also like the page and rules for what you state BO if you can give them, because it never hurts to improve your game :huh:

[Albion de Heaven]

Well... even if it is new to me I have checked my manual and while for example for Sweeping Advance the rulebook clearly states that the base unmodified profile statistic is used (so i suppose that Enhance will NOT work for Sweeping Advance) the descriptions for the Jaws just refers to the stat, so we have to use the current stat... if u have a PF you have 1, if you have been hit by a TH you have 1, if you have Ehnance you have +1.

 

The same is, for example if you have hit and run and furious charge... if you make an hit and run test in the turn you charged you have the +1 bonus to initiative.

[Albion de Heaven]

Well... even if it is new to me I have checked my manual and while for example for Sweeping Advance the rulebook clearly states that the base unmodified profile statistic is used (so i suppose that Enhance will NOT work for Sweeping Advance) the descriptions for the Jaws just refers to the stat, so we have to use the current stat... if u have a PF you have 1, if you have been hit by a TH you have 1, if you have Ehnance you have +1.

 

The same is, for example if you have hit and run and furious charge... if you make an hit and run test in the turn you charged you have the +1 bonus to initiative.

 

 

i quote myself and correct myself. If you have a powerfist your initiative is not modified to 1, it just says that your close combact attacks are blown at initiative 1

[Legatus]

I think the Bonus from "Enhance" counts. Leadership tests are basically just a special variation of a Characteristics test, and bonuses and maluses are taken into account for them all the time. To pass a Characteristics test, the model has to "roll lower with a D6 than the characteristic involved". Eldar that are enhanced by a Warlock's presence "add +1 to their Initiative". I am not seeing a reason why that should not work.

 

It is difficult to fined compareable situations, since there are barely any Characteristics tests done in the game, if we do not count Leadership tests.

 

 

while for example for Sweeping Advance the rulebook clearly states that the base unmodified profile statistic is used

However, sweeping advance tests are not Characteristics tests. A Characteristics test is a D6 roll under the Characteristics value in question. For a sweeping advance both sides roll a D6 and add their Stat to see who scored higher.

 

 

if u have a PF you have 1, if you have been hit by a TH you have 1

Power fists and thunder hammers do not reduce the user's Initiative to 1. Merely the attacks with these weapons are delivered at Initiative 1. Their initiative is not affected in any other way. Models wounded by a thunder hammer on the other hand indeed get their Initiative value reduced to 1 for a short time, so that would count for all tests made involving the model's Initiative.

Edit: I was still writing this when the post it was in reply to was adressed again by the poster.

 

 

The same is, for example if you have hit and run and furious charge... if you make an hit and run test in the turn you charged you have the +1 bonus to initiative.

Models assaulting with furious charge do not get a general +1 to their Initiative. They only specifically get +1 to Initiative when attacking in close combat that turn.

 

 

These are all basic and do not count any modifiers unless the codex specifically says so. For example a Space Marine is S4. If you equip him with a power fist it doubles his basic strength.

Powerfists are not automatically and permanently in effect. For example, a model with a powersword and a power fist could chose to either use the power fist or the power sword. If it uses the sword, it will not also still get the doubled strength value from the power fist. So a power fist will basically only change the strength the model attacks with, not the model's strength for any other purpose.

 

 

Otherwise you could run into cases of rules bending such as hitting a high initiative model with a thunderhammer then JotWW it the next turn and claiming said model must test on I1.

That is exactly what happens. Models wounded by a thunder hammer do not "attack at an initiative of 1" untill the end of the next player's turn. They have their "Initiative reduced to a value of 1".

[Albion de Heaven]

That is exactly what happens. Models wounded by a thunder hammer do not "attack at an initiative of 1" untill the end of the next player's turn. They have their "Initiative reduced to a value of 1".

 

 

well... it depends from thunder hammer codex B)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Legatus sounds like you are applying it only when you want it.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Legatus sounds like you are applying it only when you want it.

No he is playing it by the book. You are missreading things to support your argument. Powerfists do not modify your characters initive, they modify your attacks. You marine is still I4.

 

 

Edit: on a side note, JOTWW is a shooting attack and as such I do not beleive it is legal for it to effect models locked in CC, thus for thunderhammers to make an impact the targets would have to have disengaged from CC imidiatly after being hit. Of course that may only apply to the initial target of JOTWW, however precident of other multi target weapons (template and blast) require that they not contact any models in CC (well before scatter anyway), so if forced to make a judgement call thats how I would rule it, after all wolves arnt that likely to shoot a teamate in the back.

[thade]

That gave me pause for a moment as well, but I see it now.

 

When a model gets wounded by a Thunderhammer, the BRB tells us that his attacks resolve at I1 in the next Assault Phase. They do not say that the model's Initiative is reduced to 1 for the following Turn. So the model would still get a save on 4+ from JotWW...though logistically I'm not sure how this would happen as the model is *in* an Assault and the TH is resolving on I1 (the last initiative pass). Sure you can imagine a way this can happen, but that's a pocket case. ;)

[Albion de Heaven]

That gave me pause for a moment as well, but I see it now.

 

When a model gets wounded by a Thunderhammer, the BRB tells us that his attacks resolve at I1 in the next Assault Phase. They do not say that the model's Initiative is reduced to 1 for the following Turn. So the model would still get a save on 4+ from JotWW...though logistically I'm not sure how this would happen as the model is *in* an Assault and the TH is resolving on I1 (the last initiative pass). Sure you can imagine a way this can happen, but that's a pocket case. ;)

 

 

something like lysander/calgar or a random eternal warrior hitting at I1 vs a thunder hammer marine

they both hit and wound but the marine of course die. ;)

 

 

the real big question is: if i target with the jaws an enemy, unengaged model and the line passes over a close combact what happens? is it legal? is it not? every person has his own version i guess...

[Legatus]

When a model gets wounded by a Thunderhammer, the BRB tells us that his attacks resolve at I1 in the next Assault Phase. They do not say that the model's Initiative is reduced to 1 for the following Turn.

You may have accidentally looked in the 4th Edition BBB, where that was indeed how the thunder hammer was described. However, in 5th Edition it is indeed flat out the wounded model's Initiative value that is reduced to 1 untill the end of the next player's turn. It is not "attacking at Initiative 1". Even if the model disengages after the combat and is his by JOTWW next turn, it will have Initative 1.

[Frosty the Pyro]

That gave me pause for a moment as well, but I see it now.

 

When a model gets wounded by a Thunderhammer, the BRB tells us that his attacks resolve at I1 in the next Assault Phase. They do not say that the model's Initiative is reduced to 1 for the following Turn. So the model would still get a save on 4+ from JotWW...though logistically I'm not sure how this would happen as the model is *in* an Assault and the TH is resolving on I1 (the last initiative pass). Sure you can imagine a way this can happen, but that's a pocket case. :lol:

Actualy the BrB says someone hit "is knocked realing, reducing their initive to a value of one untill the end of the next players turn." Of course as mentioned in my previous post i dont think you can use jaws on someone locked in CC which makes the circumstances needed for using HammerJaws a bit narrow.

[thade]

So it is! In which case, if that model was removed from combat after the TH hit and still on the table, it's init 1 and pretty screwed by JotWW. @_@

 

Still 4th Ed vets at my club are infecting me with their old rules. :rolleyes:

[stinkenheim]

actually you can hit someone in combat with Jaws, you just can't target them mking it an extremely unlikely occurance. the FAQ for jws states that you need LOS to the first model it affects. the line is then drwn through that point until it finishes 24" away from the RP ignoring terrain. if the combat is under that line then it will affect models fighting.