Was Astelan Right?

[Walter Payton]

Title says it all folks! Opinions and justifications!

 

Is Astelan telling the truth?

 

My personal believe is that he is not lying, as lying implies he knows the information he gives is wrong, but is telling what he believes to be the truth.

[TyrionTheImp]

I assume you're talking about Angels of Darkness, in which case, he believes he isn't lying, however I for one believe that what he believes is truth to be a lie.

 

One can't say for certain, but I just disliked the books portrayal of Dark Angels in general, and there are several faults lore wise throughout the book that reinforce my distaste.

[Wayward]

Title says it all folks! Opinions and justifications!

 

Is Astelan telling the truth?

 

My personal believe is that he is not lying, as lying implies he knows the information he gives is wrong, but is telling what he believes to be the truth.

 

That doesnt necessarily makes him right.

I believe everything we read told from a null point of view (the storyteller so to say) is an absolute thruth, so, if you grab your codex and there it reads that the DA that stayed on caliban are traitors, traitors they are.

[breng77]

That doesnt necessarily makes him right.

I believe everything we read told from a null point of view (the storyteller so to say) is an absolute thruth, so, if you grab your codex and there it reads that the DA that stayed on caliban are traitors, traitors they are.

 

However, being a traitor does not make him "wrong" either. Just because someone is a traitor does not make them evil or wrong, it is a point of view thing.

[Interrogator Stobz]

War is not about who is right, but who is left.

When we finally kill the last fallen we will decide what is right uncontested.

 

heh heh heh :rolleyes:

Stobz

[Wayward]

That doesnt necessarily makes him right.

I believe everything we read told from a null point of view (the storyteller so to say) is an absolute thruth, so, if you grab your codex and there it reads that the DA that stayed on caliban are traitors, traitors they are.

 

However, being a traitor does not make him "wrong" either, just ask Americans about the American Revolution. Just because someone is a traitor does not make them evil or wrong, it is a point of view thing.

 

I was referring to the texts in the DA codex, the ones telling the story of Caliban, the Lion, the arriving of the Emperor, etc. Those texts are told by an omnipresent narrator, and are not subject to any point of view, for the narrator isnt a character, is an entity telling the story. So what this narrator tell us isnt subject to interpretation, except in obvious cases. English not being my native tounge, I hope I explained myself well :)

[Justicar Valius]

War is not about who is right, but who is left.

When we finally kill the last fallen we will decide what is right uncontested.

 

heh heh heh :wub:

Stobz

QFT

[Bringer of Redemption]

War is not about who is right, but who is left.

When we finally kill the last fallen we will decide what is right uncontested.

 

heh heh heh :wub:

Stobz

QFT

 

History is written by the victors. Personally, until I see something more definite in the official fluff (that is, the codex) I will reserve judgment, though I do think Astelan made a compelling argument in Angels of Darkness for his side of the story, as do the "loyalists" (the inner circle).

 

--BoR

[BlackSpike]

I was referring to the texts in the DA codex, the ones telling the story of Caliban, the Lion, the arriving of the Emperor, etc. Those texts are told by an omnipresent narrator, and are not subject to any point of view, for the narrator isnt a character, is an entity telling the story. So what this narrator tell us isnt subject to interpretation, except in obvious cases. English not being my native tounge, I hope I explained myself well :wub:

 

The 'narrator' tells us what the author wants us to read.

This does not make it true, nor false.

 

The texts in the DA Codex are written for the benefit of the Dark Angel Players, and will not be saying "the entire Inner Circle are traitorous liars", they will have "loyal, heroic, but shamed" spin. Sells more Codexes that way :wub:

 

I'm sure the story of Caliban is more complex than anything we have read yet, and may never be told to the satisfaction of everyone ... :P

[breng77]

The 'narrator' tells us what the author wants us to read.

This does not make it true, nor false.

 

The texts in the DA Codex are written for the benefit of the Dark Angel Players, and will not be saying "the entire Inner Circle are traitorous liars", they will have "loyal, heroic, but shamed" spin. Sells more Codexes that way smile.gif

 

I'm sure the story of Caliban is more complex than anything we have read yet, and may never be told to the satisfaction of everyone ... smile.gif

 

This is pretty much what I was going for. Each codex is written from the point of view of that army (for the most part). The chapter is going to be portrayed as being betrayed in its own codex, because it has been. Those who betrayed may have thought what the chapter was doing was wrong...

[pueriexdeus]

Truth is only relevant to the teller. Regardless of right or wrong the teller believes what he is saying then it is the truth weather you believe it or not. Keep in mind there are two sides to every coin.

[Gillyfish]

You'll see that this topic regularly pops up on the forum. After following a number of these threads, the general consensus seems to be as follows:

 

Astellan absolutely believes that his version of events is true. However, he was isolated on Caliban and didn't get to see what the Lion was doing - much of his conclusions are the result of adding two and two and getting five. We know from some of the Heresy books/stories that the Lion was loyal, if self interested, and that Astellan is sent back to Caliban and isolated from events going on elsewhere. By that point point he already had a grudge against the Lion and this festered, eventually leading him to fire on the Dark Angel fleet first.

 

It seems to me that Astellan cannot bear to entertain the notion that his version of events is wrong - otherwise that makes him a traitor when he believes that he actually stayed loyal. Angels of Darkness is great because it gives the viewpoint of a Fallen, a Fallen who allowed his selfish motives and jealousy to blind him to what actually happened. ODM has written an excellent post on this, pointing out that the fault of the Dark Angels (both Fallen and loyal) is that they have pursued their own ends at the expense of serving the wider interests of the Imperium. Whereas the loyal DA do fight for the Imperium, they will leave without notice if it gives them a shot at what they see as redemption. The Fallen fell for a number of reasons - some were swayed by Luther, others felt more loyalty to him than to the Lion. Others were jealous of their brothers who were allowed to continue the Crusade. What's interesting is that the loyal Dark Angels in the book eventually do not follow this pattern - choosing to save the inhabitants of Piscina IV at their own expense and at the expense of failing to capture a Fallen - something that the rest of the Chapter may not have done. Arguably, these Dark Angels redeem themselves through their actions, although there is no-one to acknowledge this.

[Arioch]

Yes Astelan was rigth....

 

...but the book is not, its WRONG!

[Raven Angel]

You'll see that this topic regularly pops up on the forum. After following a number of these threads, the general consensus seems to be as follows:

 

Astellan absolutely believes that his version of events is true. However, he was isolated on Caliban and didn't get to see what the Lion was doing - much of his conclusions are the result of adding two and two and getting five. We know from some of the Heresy books/stories that the Lion was loyal, if self interested, and that Astellan is sent back to Caliban and isolated from events going on elsewhere. By that point point he already had a grudge against the Lion and this festered, eventually leading him to fire on the Dark Angel fleet first.

 

It seems to me that Astellan cannot bear to entertain the notion that his version of events is wrong - otherwise that makes him a traitor when he believes that he actually stayed loyal. Angels of Darkness is great because it gives the viewpoint of a Fallen, a Fallen who allowed his selfish motives and jealousy to blind him to what actually happened. ODM has written an excellent post on this, pointing out that the fault of the Dark Angels (both Fallen and loyal) is that they have pursued their own ends at the expense of serving the wider interests of the Imperium. Whereas the loyal DA do fight for the Imperium, they will leave without notice if it gives them a shot at what they see as redemption. The Fallen fell for a number of reasons - some were swayed by Luther, others felt more loyalty to him than to the Lion. Others were jealous of their brothers who were allowed to continue the Crusade. What's interesting is that the loyal Dark Angels in the book eventually do not follow this pattern - choosing to save the inhabitants of Piscina IV at their own expense and at the expense of failing to capture a Fallen - something that the rest of the Chapter may not have done. Arguably, these Dark Angels redeem themselves through their actions, although there is no-one to acknowledge this.

 

What he said.

[Grand Master Neo]

i don't think it is a case of whether astelan is right or wrong

 

astelan got played like a cheap pawn from both sides and took it upon himself to do what he believed was morally the right thing to do. looking back at it as a serving soldier in the british army i would have to say that faced with the same situation i probably would have done the same thing but i would also like to think that i wouldn't get treated like a chump

 

that's my two cents anyways

[onezerozero]

I like Astellans stories...primarily because he's a complete outsider to the squabblings of both Lion & Luther...imagine if you will:

 

He see's that Lion arrives back at caliban and see's what Luther has become, not wanting to get bumped off by Luther, keeps his own counsel on what has transpired in the absence of Lion.

Lion, previously hacked Astellan right off by stationing him alongside Luther, so when Lion throws a hissy fit at what Luther is doing on Caliban, Astellan comes across as the kinda guy who would want to walk away, leaving two idiots to fight each other, whilst he thinks about carrying on the Emps work.

 

I think the notion of him actually being a heretic is pretty slim, he's terran born and as a result i'm a firm believer he's not a traitor. I simply feel that the DA's have become far too 'introvert'...like a bad case of low self-esteem in a teenager, looking too much inward, whilst the outward passes them by with fellow chapters looking on in disgust and/or puzzlement.

 

I like Astellans stories...primarily because he's a complete outsider to the squabblings of both Lion & Luther...imagine if you will:

 

He see's that Lion arrives back at caliban and see's what Luther has become, not wanting to get bumped off by Luther, keeps his own counsel on what has transpired in the absence of Lion.

Lion, previously hacked Astellan right off by stationing him alongside Luther, so when Lion throws a hissy fit at what Luther is doing on Caliban, Astellan comes across as the kinda guy who would want to walk away, leaving two idiots to fight each other, whilst he thinks about carrying on the Emps work.

 

I think the notion of him actually being a heretic is pretty slim, he's terran born and as a result i'm a firm believer he's not a traitor. I simply feel that the DA's have become far too 'introvert'...like a bad case of low self-esteem in a teenager, looking too much inward, whilst the outward passes them by with fellow chapters looking on in disgust and/or puzzlement.

 

I like Astellans stories...primarily because he's a complete outsider to the squabblings of both Lion & Luther...imagine if you will:

 

He see's that Lion arrives back at caliban and see's what Luther has become, not wanting to get bumped off by Luther, keeps his own counsel on what has transpired in the absence of Lion.

Lion, previously hacked Astellan right off by stationing him alongside Luther, so when Lion throws a hissy fit at what Luther is doing on Caliban, Astellan comes across as the kinda guy who would want to walk away, leaving two idiots to fight each other, whilst he thinks about carrying on the Emps work.

 

I think the notion of him actually being a heretic is pretty slim, he's terran born and as a result i'm a firm believer he's not a traitor. I simply feel that the DA's have become far too 'introvert'...like a bad case of low self-esteem in a teenager, looking too much inward, whilst the outward passes them by with fellow chapters looking on in disgust and/or puzzlement.

[Arioch]

What I think most people dont get about the Dark Angels is that the legion was exposed to far more chaos-influence and misfortune than any other loyalist chapter. There homeworld was a chaosinfested deathworld, containing an extremely powerfull chaos-entity. The entire planet was tainted, yet the people prevailed. What we have seen in the heresy so far have been a lot of exellent planning from the Dark Angels side, but all their plans are made nothing because of the betrayal of their fellow astartes (Ironwarriors) or by the betrayal of their own. But dispite all this they prevailed, they held out and survived.

 

But because of all their previous experience their ways may seem strange, even traitorous at times. But the fact is that they are mostly forced to act the way they do, for the survival of their chapter or by the nature of their traditions.

 

So what am I saying with this? Castellan does not understand the ways of the Unforgiven. He is a terran, and he has not experienced the hardship that the rest of the chapter went through, exept the battle of Caliban, that he didnt understand either. He didnt even know that Luther was tainted by chaos! He didnt even know what chaos is, so he could never understand how the Imperium turned out the way it is.

 

And im a little uncertain if Gav took any of this into consideration when he wrote the book, because the way he makes Boreas act afterwards does not make any sence.