Scouts in a Land Raider

[TyrionTheImp]

Has anyone thought of putting a unit of CC Scouts into a Godhammer Land Raider to use as a home-side objective holder?

 

The Godhammer Land Raider is a good semi-mobile firebase support that also happens to be an AV14 Transport, with scouts inside it can count as scoring (A very LARGE scorer). At the same time it's also an assault vehicle, so scouts can be unloaded to deal with Deep strikers and outflankers that may pose a threat to your backfield or the Land Raider itself.

 

I figure scouts are cheaper than Tacticals, but still maintain scoring capability and can pump out twice as many attacks in CC with bolt pistol/CCW. Since the Land Raider also doesn't have fire points, the Tactical's superior BS is being wasted, where as Scouts aren't nearly as good at shooting, yet their assault potential is increased because they can't be shot up inside an AV14 bunker. Obviously this wouldn't be as cost-effective with the assault type land Raiders as they are meant to charge forward, Godhammers on the other hand can stay in the backfield and still maintain their full firepower potential.

 

I've never used it myself, but it sounds like a fairly solid idea. I'm curious to hear other people's opinions, as well as any experience someone may have had with such an idea.

[Xeonic]

A 5 man barebones squad purely to make a land raider scoring? Not my style, but effective.

A 10 man squad geared up fully for CC to actually kill something? Not likely. Scouts are not CC specialists and shouldn't be expected to do more than tie down anything good at CC for a few turns. Think of them as 4+ sv assault marines that are slow and scoring, and WS3 at that point. There would be good matchups and bad ones but if you want to go after any deep strikers you won't really want to be picky about your targets.

 

CC scouts are good infiltrated or in a storm because you get to pick your targets, generally things you can dispatch pretty easily, a dedicated countercharge unit doesn't have that luxury.

Think on this, 10 CC scouts with a fist is 165 pts. For a mere 200 you can put 5 terminators in the same land raider.

[Justicar Valius]

CC scouts can do very well, go ask GC08...

[chapter master 454]

got nothing better to put in the land raider and your scouts are just fillers, go ahead. A scoring land raider is not something to laugh at (unless your laughing as your opponent vainly trys to remove your parked scoring land raider from his objective!)

[Grey Mage]

27 regular attacks on the assault... 3 powerfist attacks... and perhaps add 4 PW attacks and make them all rerolling for 100pts of chaplain action?

 

Its a nice squad.

[Xeonic]

My point was that they're no better, and a bit worse in CC than a squad of assault marines.

If you're using scouts to make a land raider scoring, fine, but if they leave the raider and get killed because you charged them into say, a deepstriking warrior squad, or BA assault marines(feel no pain to boot), or chaos termicide(they stumble dazed from the wreckage of the raider and maybe kill 100 pts of terminators...woo). If they're in a land raider to make it scoring then don't bother kitting them up to be uber killy in CC.

They're not khorne berserkers. They're not terminators, they're not vanguard or honor guard. They are respectable in CC, but as with the tactical squad, the vast majority of the squad's CC power is from the sergeant. Remember, CC scouts will hit MEQ on a 4+, where they take hits on a 3+, and where you have a 4+ sv, they have a 3+. Of course putting a chaplain with them would make them better but then they'd be more than just a neat way to make a land raider scoring points wise.

I've no doubts as the the effectiveness of assault scouts, mind, properly used they are surely a force to be reckoned with.

 

However, putting assault scouts in a land raider ignores the majority of the bonuses that make them actually good on the table, IMO. Your mileage may vary of course.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I agree with Xeonic. If you're going to go this route, give the Scouts bolters or (heaven forbid) shotguns. Most Deep Striking elements are assault elements, so throwing Assault Scouts into that kind of a unit is bound to end badly for the Scouts. I'd rather rely on massed shooting in that instance rather than watch my Scouts melt away on the blades of an assault squad.

[Grey Mage]

However, they ARE dirt cheap. Just like any assault based squad you have to pick and choose your battles....

 

So sure, theyll have a hard time against a 10 strong plague marine squad, but theyre also half the price.

[thade]

I've seen assault-kitted scout squads with a chaplain poor out of a land raider and ruin somebody's day. They hit a lot harder than you'd expect, and it's twice as embarrassing...as whatever unit they crush just got crushed by scouts. @_@

[Grey Mage]

Well yeah, in this situation theyre no different than assault marines, just 5 pts cheaper.

 

Now, whent he enemy hits back thats a whole different story.

[Wildfire]

My point was that they're no better, and a bit worse in CC than a squad of assault marines.

If you're using scouts to make a land raider scoring, fine, but if they leave the raider and get killed because you charged them into say, a deepstriking warrior squad, or BA assault marines(feel no pain to boot), or chaos termicide

 

If you do that, you're losing because you don't understand how to play. Scouts are perfectly good assualters, provided you don't try to kill assualt specialists with them. Telling people something won't work in impossible situations is not help, it's misinforming them.

[greatcrusade08]

theres some interesting opinions on this thread.

Generally a few assault scouts arent that great, but ten on the charge shouldnt be disregarded, at 140 points barebones its alot cheaper than anything else in the SM arsenal.

Against MEQ etc youd have to upgrade them by taking a PW/PF and perhaps combi-weapon (flamer works great) but maxed out its still only 175 points.

Now Grey mage pretty much got it square on, they hit hard but die easier when the enemy hits back, another way to look at that is if you get hit by a powerfist your only losing a scout instead of a terminator/honour guard etc.. so in that regard they are better.

 

Generally assault scouts are great company for a force multiplier HQ choice LINKY, id be using Khan for the furious charge, which means I4 opponents wont be hitting back in force..

a chaplain gives re-rolls which at 4+ to hit makes them just as effective as assault marines on the charge (and at about the same cost as a pimped out squad).

 

if i were playing an elite army id use both chappy and khan for uber hitting power. I used this unit as an outflanker for a while and took out whole ork mobs on the charge, thier lack of mobility is somewhat limiting, but if, as we are pretending here they ride in a raider, thats covered.

 

10 ccw scouts are good on thier own, but cant stand toe to toe with dedicated assault specialists.. however in the raider youd be using them to chop the shooty stuff, whilst your shooty stuff took out thier choppy stuff :huh:

[Velkairiwyth]

Hmm...

 

Cheap scoring unit in a very expensive transport...

 

Whilst the Land Raider is a decent weapons platform, it is not exactly great bang for buck. I would be more inclined to pop the scouts in a Landspeeder Storm with sniper rifles and keep them out the way until I want to hold that objective. They can shoot/assault out of the storm, and the storm can have a decent weapon strapped to its chassis. Your talking <150 points for a mobile sniper platform that can then hop onto either objective at the end of the game (moving fast = 6's to melee, and 4+ cover save so your fairly resilient.

 

I have no doubt the landraider would be a git to shift from that objective, but it has MUCH better uses, and the points of whatever is inside are essentially wasted as the only use for them is to make the unit scoring.

 

Just my 2c - apologies if its stated already, I have not read the other responses yet!

[Grey Mage]

Umm... they can shoot if you only want the storm to move 6" and they fire their bolt pistols... not really an effective way to run the unit Im afraid.

[mowglie]

I'm not sure I agree with all the "X isn't an assault unit" going round.

 

Axiom 1: Scouts are good in assault against everything that's worse than them in assault

Axiom 2: There are a lot of things which you might want to assault which are worse in assault than scouts

 

Proper assault specialists are overkill against the vast majority of "normal" targets. Five scouts + PF can win combat reliably against a surprising range of targets.

 

That said...

 

I've done interesting things with a 10-man scout squad, 5x CC + PF, 4x Sniper Rifle, Missile Launcher. My list at the time also contained a LSS and a LRC Very flexible. In objective games, if the snipers didn't have a target in my opponent's list (frequently!) I would kick out whatever unit was using the LRC into their own dedicated transport and just pop them in instead.

 

Some of our most difficult matchups can really struggle to take out a raider (e.g. Orks).

 

Trouble is, it's too nasty for a friendly list, and it's imho not quite good enough for a no-holds-barred competitive list. Your opponent will either answer it with his eyes closed, or be completely incapable of doing anything about it. That doesn't really win many friends!

[Xeonic]

If you do that, you're losing because you don't understand how to play. Scouts are perfectly good assualters, provided you don't try to kill assualt specialists with them. Telling people something won't work in impossible situations is not help, it's misinforming them.

Part of which is basically the point I was getting at. Assault scouts are not assault specialists in my opinion, any more than assault marines are. They are merely a CC focused generalist troops choice. IMO they won't work very well as a deep strike deterrent because the range of targets they won't be able to engage on equal footing is longer than the list of targets they do engage well.

 

I gave a few examples of deep strikers in your backfield they -wouldn't- be good at engaging, but what would they be good at?

They can make a transport scoring(great!)

CC scouts can dispatch most ranged oriented specialists and most troops(ofc barring MEQ assault oriented troops). With a fist they have a chance against walkers, vehicles and MCs.

They can be kitted to fulfill a variety of roles and have a really nice set of special rules(most of which are totally useless if they're stuffed in a land raider).

If boosted by a chaplain, they are really quite nice, but so are any other assault troops. It's worth noting a chaplain really makes up for low WS.

I boosted by Khan they are +1 I and S, which also would make them better in assault.

(Both of the above options would makes a 10 man squad of them them cost more than 5 terminators.)

If sent in with a very killy SC such as calgar, they are reduced to cheap wounds.

 

Where exactly was I posting misinformation? I said if used properly CC scouts were good, I gave examples where they weren't effective. I never said they were terrible. I never said they were bad in all situations, but if I were to take an assault unit purely to assault things that deep strike into my backfield, scouts wouldn't make the list, because of the limited spectrum of targets they can take on unassisted. Anything deep striking next to your land raider will likely be able to kill it if not in shooting then in assault next turn... and many things that can dispatch a land raider will happily munch your scouts, or just be cheap enough to not care about dying.

 

Funny, when I end a post with your mileage may vary, I'm also leaving the thread open to others opinions and deferring to their experience. I'll admit to having never tried using raider borne unsupported scouts in a counter charge role, not because I don't think it would be fun or manageable, but because I don't think it would be effective(something I've tried to make clear is my opinion). If you're gearing a unit up for a specific role, it needs to be able to fulfill that role.

Again, this is just my opinion. Scouts are great troops and anyone who underestimates them is in for a shock.

[Grey Mage]

Thing is... the chaplain doesnt make up for low WS against most opponents- who will be WS 4 unless your in a gaurd or nid heavy enviroment. WS 3 hits just as hard as WS 4 against WS 4-6 opponents.

 

They just get hit alot harder in return. Trust me, bloodclaws are an assault unit, and they hit very nicely... and die in droves.

[LardO'Blood]

I personally find LR's dont do well without backup of over 5 guys. The LR just dies to easily to meltabombs/multi meltas/power fists to leave without a decent guard. Try putting a squad of scoring sternguard (with pedro) or a tactical squad in.

[Justicar Valius]

Or just take 2 land raiders with extra armour and use smoke launchers to good effect? Seriosuly it works wonder in 1500 for my pure DH army.

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

That, my friend, is what we call "Raider Spam"...

[Giga]

Tactical marines in a LR could do the same job, only better.

 

- with a combiflamer and flamer, they can have some serious rapid fire punch

- they get a free heavy weapon so they can combat squad to use it

- they've got overall better stats

- they can take a razorback and thus add to the army firepower

- they cost only 30 more points then the scouts

 

Why would you want to use your troops for counter-assault purposes anyway?

[Voltaire]

If you do that, you're losing because you don't understand how to play. Scouts are perfectly good assualters, provided you don't try to kill assualt specialists with them. Telling people something won't work in impossible situations is not help, it's misinforming them.

Part of which is basically the point I was getting at. Assault scouts are not assault specialists in my opinion, any more than assault marines are. They are merely a CC focused generalist troops choice. IMO they won't work very well as a deep strike deterrent because the range of targets they won't be able to engage on equal footing is longer than the list of targets they do engage well.

 

I gave a few examples of deep strikers in your backfield they -wouldn't- be good at engaging, but what would they be good at?

They can make a transport scoring(great!)

CC scouts can dispatch most ranged oriented specialists and most troops(ofc barring MEQ assault oriented troops). With a fist they have a chance against walkers, vehicles and MCs.

They can be kitted to fulfill a variety of roles and have a really nice set of special rules(most of which are totally useless if they're stuffed in a land raider).

If boosted by a chaplain, they are really quite nice, but so are any other assault troops. It's worth noting a chaplain really makes up for low WS.

I boosted by Khan they are +1 I and S, which also would make them better in assault.

(Both of the above options would makes a 10 man squad of them them cost more than 5 terminators.)

If sent in with a very killy SC such as calgar, they are reduced to cheap wounds.

 

Where exactly was I posting misinformation? I said if used properly CC scouts were good, I gave examples where they weren't effective. I never said they were terrible. I never said they were bad in all situations, but if I were to take an assault unit purely to assault things that deep strike into my backfield, scouts wouldn't make the list, because of the limited spectrum of targets they can take on unassisted. Anything deep striking next to your land raider will likely be able to kill it if not in shooting then in assault next turn... and many things that can dispatch a land raider will happily munch your scouts, or just be cheap enough to not care about dying.

 

Funny, when I end a post with your mileage may vary, I'm also leaving the thread open to others opinions and deferring to their experience. I'll admit to having never tried using raider borne unsupported scouts in a counter charge role, not because I don't think it would be fun or manageable, but because I don't think it would be effective(something I've tried to make clear is my opinion). If you're gearing a unit up for a specific role, it needs to be able to fulfill that role.

Again, this is just my opinion. Scouts are great troops and anyone who underestimates them is in for a shock.

 

I feel that you miss the point.

Scouts are cheap scoring units. Landraiders are AV14 bunkers.

You combine those and sit on an objective you've achieved the entire units purpose. They don't need to be geared for anything other than light-troop/elite harassment, because not only are you spending points you probably wont use, your preparing to send them into assault which will take them away from their objective.

 

This is great for the purpose of a Godhammer because they really are just bigger predators. Sure they're technically assault vehicles, but thats not how you use two twin-linked Las-cannons.

Or maybe your just trying to get in 12'' range of the enemy so that your absolutely certain that your in range. Because y'know 48 inches isn't close enough...

 

Why waste the power armor in a shooty-raider? Terminators want to get into assault so put them in assault-raiders. Make it hard on the enemy. Make them walk through hell to get to your av14 LR as it pumps beams of light into their tanks and monsters. They're just as curteos in positioning their army, so return the favor.

 

 

Whats that? Your meltas and monsters aren't close enough to eat my super-tank? Lighten up. Well do more with this objective than you ever could.

[mowglie]

I like having the scouts-in-raider play available to me, if it fits the rest of my list. Most of my lists include a 100-pt scout squad with a PF. In an objective game against an opponent who'll struggle to handle the raider, putting those scouts in and parking it can be a safe play.

 

However, only 1/3 of games are 2-objective games, and even then I have several ways of claiming my home objective, and at least two ways of winning without scoring my home objective at all - particularly if my home objective might not have commanding lanes of fire for the LR to try to make its points back.

 

In all those cases, I want my scouts out doing something more productive.

 

The question is, I suppose, all things told, between games where you can park and games where you're better doing something else, does the raider justify its points cost? 325 points for a reasonably safe way to hold your home objective?

 

In competitive play, I'd say "no". If it's important for him to prevent you scoring that objective, there's plenty of ways that a competitive player can do so. If it's not important for him to prevent you scoring that objective, you've just wasted 325 points on two twin-linked lascannons.

 

Additionally, I'd say it's not appropriate play for friendlies.

 

So, if you've got a HS slot spare, put the raider in it instead of buying it as a dedicated transport for your terminators and keep the play in mind (even if you're not playing Scouts, putting a combat squad in there to score is still sometimes appropriate), but I'd probably say don't build your list around it.

 

Unless ofc you're just spamming raiders for laughs, in which case more power to you. Busting out a list like:-

 

100 - Librarian (Force Dome, Null-zone)

75 - Scouts (5 models)

75 - Scouts (5 models)

250 - LR

250 - LR

250 - LR

 

- for a thousand-point exhibition match ought to get a few giggles.

[DerekLee688]

I personaly like the combination. If your meta game allows you to run that combo with impunity then have at it. Against tau/guard/necron, that's a wonderful thing to have. It's a nice way to screw over a tac squad on an objective. If you don't need a Liby's hood for psy defence then I'd definaltly run it with a chappy. Even if they can't take a decicated CC unit on their own, we rarely get to use one unit to eleminate one unit anyway. Just blast it with any heavy firepower or tac squad and let the scouts finish it off. Tac's can rarely handle anything serious on their own either.

 

As far as C:SM is conserned they are as close to a scoring CC unit as you can get, minimizes the LR+anything as a point stink, and with a chappy are better CC than Tac squads. Their WS 3 is the only sub par thing about them, and that is made up by a chappy. A 4+ armor save is alot better than what orks or most nids get. The uses of the unit make up for the short commings it scores, is a great cleaner, and can take on CC weak units on their own with minimum ponts invested.

[greatcrusade08]

i can thelp but think some people are missing the point..

 

ccw scouts arent as really classified as a dedicated assault unit, they cant do the kind of damage that honour guard or terminators can do, however taken with the force multiplier HQs they DO become a cc threat and are as good.