Are we broken?

[wolf363839]

So far with the new 'dex I have 17 wins, 3 draws (which equal wins when using VPs), and 2 losses; all against a wide variety of opponents and don't use any special characters (I have not played mechanized IG yet with this list). So my question is: are mechanized wolves broken???

 

Here's my 2K list:

 

Wolf Lord

Frost Blade

Storm Shield

Runic Armor

Thunderwolf Mount

Meltabombs

Wolf Tooth Necklace

2 x Fenrisian Wolves

Saga of the Bear

 

Rune Priest (riding in a GH rhino)

Living Lightning

Tempests Wrath

Chooser of the Slain

Wolf Tail Talisman

 

5 x Wolf Guard (all assigned to GH's)

5 x Power Fist

5 x Combi-Melta

 

5 x Wolf Scouts

Meltagun

 

10 x Grey Hunters

Wolf Standard

Mark of the Wulfen

Power Weapon

Flamer, Meltagun

Redeemer w/ MM and EA

 

8 x Grey Hunters

Wolf Standard

Mark of the Wulfen

Power Weapon

Meltagun

Rhino w/ EA

 

9 x Grey Hunters

Wolf Standard

Mark of the Wulfen

Power Weapon

Meltagun

Rhino w/ EA

 

5 x Grey Hunters

Meltagun

Razorback w/ TwinL Las

 

2 x

Vindicator w/ Dozer

[JamesI]

The wolves codex is good, but its not broken.

[Aeddon]

How have your games been? Would you say that you won those games or that your opponents lost them?

[wolf363839]

Tactically no one is perfect. In every game I can think of one or two minor things I should have done differently, like move a unit left instead of right, etc. My opponents have ranged from novice to veteran, and have made similar errors. I guess the biggest errors I've seen in my opponents has been their army build. For my own build, I always use an all-comers list, same no matter who I may fight. My losses have both been to experienced players. However, many of my victories have been very one-sided.

 

Do you guys think my list is chessy in any way? I tried to keep it in keeping with the Fang, with well-equipped GH's and a Wolf Lord riding a mechanical Thunderwolf steed so as to keep up with the armor (I showed a pic of my thunderlord in other posts).

[Decoy]

Nah, looks fairly decent to me, mate. It's not a brutal list, but it's not an easy one, either. Sounds like your opponents just don't know how to handle it in it's TAC glory.

[wolf363839]

I guess its possible that these folks don't see many fully mechanized lists, but I doubt it. I've even played several other SM players who seem geared up for anti-mech, i.e. lots and lots of melta, but nothing they've tried works. The one recent loss I have was to a SM list, but my dice were so terrible in that game that even the on-lookers were shocked, so it wasn't like I made terrible tactical decisions. Normally I'd be jumping for joy, but it is just a game after all, and winning shouldn't be so one-sided in an evenly matched game...oh well, guess I'll just keep on clawing!

[Branek Icefang]

Short Answer: No Space Wolves are not broken.

 

Long Answer:

 

Space Wolves are an extremely unique adaption of the standard marines. Where normal marines have some of the most flexible units available (example, SM tacticals, a heavy weapon gives them a fair amount of firepower) Space Wolves are less flexible. We have one rule to playing Space Wolves. Get stuck in. Wolves excel at close quarters, where we are able to pound the enemy before either an assault or counter-assault. Due to the marvel that is 5th ed, Mechanised lists are all the rage, but most mechanised lists lack the type of troop we do. Grey Hunters are either close assault fire support units, or can be made into assault units.

 

Conversly, Space Wolves deliver some obscenely powerful long ranged units, Long Fangs are a deadly unit if used correctly, augmented by the fact that a WG with a cyclone and frost blade/power fist can join them, they become resolute defenders of any terrain.

 

Space Wolves aren't able to operate efficiently in the same capacity as Codex Marines. But no matter how many times you say "Space Wolves" people will hear "Space Marines"

[wolf363839]

they become resolute defenders of any terrain

 

Funny you say that, because I just played a battle mission where I was defending the middle of the board and its four objectives from a drop podding Raven Guard army...and yeah Wolves are bred for the counter attack role and I slaughtered him.

 

And I hear you: SM do not equal SW. SM are generally a shooty list that can morph into some ok assault/counter attack lists with TH/SS termies, special characters, etc.

 

But I consider SW as probably the MOST flexible force in the game today because they have the ability to be very shooty, i.e. Long Fangs, normal SM vehicles, etc. And of course they also have the ability to be outstanding in the assault because of truly awesome troops as well as excellent HQ choices. If you add in the mech, they become a juggernaut.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

they become resolute defenders of any terrain

 

Funny you say that, because I just played a battle mission where I was defending the middle of the board and its four objectives from a drop podding Raven Guard army...and yeah Wolves are bred for the counter attack role and I slaughtered him.

 

And I hear you: SM do not equal SW. SM are generally a shooty list that can morph into some ok assault/counter attack lists with TH/SS termies, special characters, etc.

 

But I consider SW as probably the MOST flexible force in the game today because they have the ability to be very shooty, i.e. Long Fangs, normal SM vehicles, etc. And of course they also have the ability to be outstanding in the assault because of truly awesome troops as well as excellent HQ choices. If you add in the mech, they become a juggernaut.

And you are running a Thunderwolf Lord,which when used properly can against some opponents completely turn the tide of a battle all by himself.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The wolves codex is good, but its not broken.

 

I agree. Wolves are not broken. Mech is the best way to play and you are playing it. Special characters or even regular tooled out characters, do not offer great bang-for-buck. Sure they crack heads within their reach, but generally you will get more of everything from the same amount of grunts or Armour.

 

I am glad you have found an army that suits your style of play :cuss

 

*I have just started playing at a club and fairly belted the first two guys I have played. Some people are just not very good, for whatever reason, when you play them....

[wolf363839]

Thanks for all the input guys. Looking back at the replies, maybe it is the fact that the Thunderlord is such a MONSTER that truly makes my army great. He has been the MVP in almost every game. He's killed Mephiston and more than his fair share of units. In my recent game he killed a 5-man squad of lightning clawed Vanguards and their Captain Shrike in two assault phases. He is a wopping 285 points, but he is so damn FAST with fleet and a 12" charge range and at I 5. I could always field another rhino mounted GH pack, but he is way too deadly not to take.

[Branek Icefang]

they become resolute defenders of any terrain

 

Funny you say that, because I just played a battle mission where I was defending the middle of the board and its four objectives from a drop podding Raven Guard army...and yeah Wolves are bred for the counter attack role and I slaughtered him.

 

And I hear you: SM do not equal SW. SM are generally a shooty list that can morph into some ok assault/counter attack lists with TH/SS termies, special characters, etc.

 

But I consider SW as probably the MOST flexible force in the game today because they have the ability to be very shooty, i.e. Long Fangs, normal SM vehicles, etc. And of course they also have the ability to be outstanding in the assault because of truly awesome troops as well as excellent HQ choices. If you add in the mech, they become a juggernaut.

 

Space Wolves are bred for close quarters, not close combat. For some reason, people seem to think they are the exact same thing, idiots.

[wolf363839]

...and I'm sure you were not implying that any of us here are idiots, huh Branek...

 

No, I agree that close combat and close quarters are two different things, both of which the wolves excel at doing.

 

For my own games, I rarely end up rapid firing the bolters or have a need for a rapid firing plasma gun, but it is a winning option if that is what you choose to do. I like having the meltagun instead of plasma because I can shoot and have the option to assault, which rapid firing weapons prevent. It depends on your style of play. I like my juggernaut approach of moving my troops into position to assault and decide the battle in CC while the rest of the units provide supporting fire.

 

I also use my Thunderwolf Lord as a highly mobile strike unit that almost acts as a local reserve (in the more traditional military way). He can reposition and strike where the enemy is weakest or attack a high value target and is also strong enough to halt an enemy advance if I feel like sacrificing him to stall a unit of TH/SS termies led by Lysander, for example.

[KeithGatchalian]

Space Wolves are bred for close quarters, not close combat. For some reason, people seem to think they are the exact same thing, idiots.

 

It is a rock paper scissors thing in my opinion.

 

Space Wolves in HTH against tactical marines or their equivalent, the Grey Hunters win.

 

Grey Hunters against any dedicated assault unit ( genestealers, Khorne berzerkers, The Straken Mob, Nobz, Nobz Bikerz) and they get slammed.

 

Of course, that is one on one. Even with the charge, GH would lose. But so would most marines short of say, a vanguard vet squad, or an honor guard....

[Branek Icefang]

...and I'm sure you were not implying that any of us here are idiots, huh Branek...

 

No, I agree that close combat and close quarters are two different things, both of which the wolves excel at doing.

 

For my own games, I rarely end up rapid firing the bolters or have a need for a rapid firing plasma gun, but it is a winning option if that is what you choose to do. I like having the meltagun instead of plasma because I can shoot and have the option to assault, which rapid firing weapons prevent. It depends on your style of play. I like my juggernaut approach of moving my troops into position to assault and decide the battle in CC while the rest of the units provide supporting fire.

 

I also use my Thunderwolf Lord as a highly mobile strike unit that almost acts as a local reserve (in the more traditional military way). He can reposition and strike where the enemy is weakest or attack a high value target and is also strong enough to halt an enemy advance if I feel like sacrificing him to stall a unit of TH/SS termies led by Lysander, for example.

 

I am a Space Wolf, therefore any body who ranks beneath me is an Idiot who needs to learn to fight.

 

Anybody who ranks over me is an Idiot who needs to get back to fighting, none of this strategy garbage.

 

So basically, you are all idiots!

 

 

Space Wolves are bred for close quarters, not close combat. For some reason, people seem to think they are the exact same thing, idiots.

 

It is a rock paper scissors thing in my opinion.

 

Space Wolves in HTH against tactical marines or their equivalent, the Grey Hunters win.

 

Grey Hunters against any dedicated assault unit ( genestealers, Khorne berzerkers, The Straken Mob, Nobz, Nobz Bikerz) and they get slammed.

 

Of course, that is one on one. Even with the charge, GH would lose. But so would most marines short of say, a vanguard vet squad, or an honor guard....

 

Which is exactly true, but that is close combat, not close quarters fighting. Close Quarters fighting is me blasting the hell out of you for 2-3 turns before I either charge in, or counter-attack you, followed by a supporting unit charging in the next turn.

[saphius]

@ Branek - Yea but the last time I had more than 1, maybe 2 rounds, of shooting at a dedicated assault unit was... never. Against skilled players you are not going to get 3 or 4 rounds of shooting off at any assault unit that is deadly enough to clean 10 GH on the assault. And if you are, then well you never needed the Grey Hunters anyway because your opponent is either a) New :P Stupid c) Basically immobile for some reason.

 

Against a good opponent you will generally get 1 round of shooting off and have to take the assault. - Long Fangs may be the exception if you get the first turn.

 

Grey Hunters are great on the counter but you do have to have some powerhouses to hit with. Hence, the reason the Thunderwolf Lord is such an effective piece. Point for Point he's not worth more than 10 GH and a transport. BUT, without him your screwed against quite a few opponents.

[Skirax]

The thing is, we're not broken, we're just better than everyone else - but in a good way.

 

I heard someone once say, 'Wolves are the jack of all trades, and the masters of none.' This is true in so many ways, as, as far as I can see, we've just been updated from third edition. Long Fangs, correct me if I'm wrong?

 

I know someone who could still use Wolves in fourth edition and whip any enemy from here to high hell.

 

Also, since this edition is focussed more towards Close Combat, and our HQs are geared for combat (4 base attacks on a Lord? C'mon!), it makes them a deadly opponent to go against.

 

Back to my updated point; aside from Sagas and Thunderwolves, I don't think we've had too many wargear pieces added on - in fact, some have been lost, like Healing Balms (Or something similar). We've not gone to the OTT stage, like the new Blood Angels, or have been given a huge boost on our only asset, like 'Nids. So no, we're not broken.

[Branek Icefang]

@ Branek - Yea but the last time I had more than 1, maybe 2 rounds, of shooting at a dedicated assault unit was... never. Against skilled players you are not going to get 3 or 4 rounds of shooting off at any assault unit that is deadly enough to clean 10 GH on the assault. And if you are, then well you never needed the Grey Hunters anyway because your opponent is either a) New :D Stupid c) Basically immobile for some reason.

 

Against a good opponent you will generally get 1 round of shooting off and have to take the assault. - Long Fangs may be the exception if you get the first turn.

 

Grey Hunters are great on the counter but you do have to have some powerhouses to hit with. Hence, the reason the Thunderwolf Lord is such an effective piece. Point for Point he's not worth more than 10 GH and a transport. BUT, without him your screwed against quite a few opponents.

 

Ah but against a good opponent, that one round of shooting makes all the difference between it being close combat and close quarters.

 

A dedicated assault unit will wipe GH out if they are unsupported, but not before the Grey Hunters can shoot off at least one volley of bolter/melta/plasma fire at them, it isn't about destroying the enemy, it is about weakening them to the point where a relatively weak unit can finish them off through either weight of attacks or quality of attacks.

 

Close Quarters is where the wolves shine because they are able to bring a ludicrous amount of fire power to bear even in that one turn before they are either able to charge, be charged and counter-attack or counter-charge an enemy unit. 1 turn of shooting is all you need if you are using your packs in a synchronized assault wave.

[the jeske]

If it looked like this . I win 17 lose 2 , but the 17 I win I table people turn 2-3 or from turn 1 it looks like my opponent may at best hope for a draw[if he gets lucky on the rolls] , then yeah your SW army is broken . But if it just wins , this means you have a better army with a better codex and play it better then the people you play against [and considering you never played against IG it does tell us bit about your opponents].

 

as real gaming goes your army is not optimal , has over costed HQs , no mystics and god knows why vindicators.

[Thunderhawk3015]

as real gaming goes your army is not optimal , has over costed HQs , no mystics and god knows why vindicators.

 

Not everyone needs mystics to be able to combat deep strike(Guard don't need them either imo). HQ's are what makes Wolves so dangerous. Thunderwolf + that much armor is a good way to go from what I have seen. Vindicators are wonderful anti tank and infantry units with a instant kill on anything on the table and the ability to break most tanks as well. Add in the melta's and Grey Hunters abilities in close where the rhinos drop them off and the list is well balanced and set up to do what the player wants them to do while still making it fun to play against.

 

There is no such thing as a "real" gaming army. There are either balanced lists, themed lists, or tournament lists. Min max is wonderful if your one of those people who have to win at all costs but I doubt that this list is designed to be in that category.

 

On the subject of the list, I see no reason for it to be broken. Can wolves be incredibly powerful if used correctly, yes, are they broken, no. Any list can be defeated(even the "leafblower") if time and though is put into how you will run your army. If people are having trouble facing a list see if you can help them fine tune it a bit.

[wolf363839]

Thunderhawk, I totally agree. And Jeske, you are gravely mistaken young Skywalker (sorry movie quotes are my thing).

 

My Thunderlord rules the day on many an occasion. He provides me with another maneuver unit that can rapidly make assaults, all while not sacrificing a scoring unit. As for Vindicators, they provide redundant firepower and attract a hell of a lot of enemy firepower, which again supports my troops gaining the advantage, even without a shot fired of their own (but when they do work it is a thing to behold!). The army is also highly mobile, and is great fun to play, which I have to say is the MOST important thing.

 

Note: I just played a Mech IG list for the first time today. I was lucky that it ended in a draw at the 5th turn, 4 KPs each. (I can now see the value of using KPs instead of simple VPs.) I'll show his list below. My list remained same as first post. My biggest lesson learned from this game is that against a Mech IG list, it is best to use terrain to mask one flank, while hitting his juicy targets hard and fast. For example, I could have rushed his 6 Chimera's on one side of the table with my 2 Vindicators, Land Raider, and Thunderlord and then brought in my Rhino mounted GH's from reserve to mop up. Had my Scouts arrived in the right place and time, I may have actually won the game. Either way, it turns out that my list does indeed match up with Mech IG, even if it isn't the optimal choice.

 

Mech IG List:

 

Col Straken

Command Squad

Medic

Standard

2 Meltaguns

Chimera

 

5x

Veteran Squad

3 Meltaguns

Power Weapon

Chimera

 

3x

Vendettas

 

3x

Demolishers

no sponsons

Heavy Flamer

[Thunderhawk3015]

Mech guard wise that list isn't anywhere near as bad as some I have seen and looks tailored to handle armored lists. Either way congratulations on the draw. Your list is optimal for any opponent in my opinion. You have the anti armor firepower but by using the Vindicators you can drop the hammer on mob armies like Tyranids and Orcs as well.

[Grey Mage]

The thing is, we're not broken, we're just better than everyone else - but in a good way.

 

I heard someone once say, 'Wolves are the jack of all trades, and the masters of none.' This is true in so many ways, as, as far as I can see, we've just been updated from third edition. Long Fangs, correct me if I'm wrong?

 

I know someone who could still use Wolves in fourth edition and whip any enemy from here to high hell.

 

Also, since this edition is focussed more towards Close Combat, and our HQs are geared for combat (4 base attacks on a Lord? C'mon!), it makes them a deadly opponent to go against.

 

Back to my updated point; aside from Sagas and Thunderwolves, I don't think we've had too many wargear pieces added on - in fact, some have been lost, like Healing Balms (Or something similar). We've not gone to the OTT stage, like the new Blood Angels, or have been given a huge boost on our only asset, like 'Nids. So no, we're not broken.

4rth edition? Try 5th- Ive yet to place lower than third with the Wolves at my back youngin.

 

TWMs, Fenrisian Wolves... none of it can make up for the loss of Venerable Dreadnaught HQs- and the higher SCCW prices easily balance out the lower cost of my GHs.

 

We stepped sideways, because there was nowhere farther up to go and keep the wulfen under control.

[wolf363839]

Yeah, I tried to design a list that could literally win against any opponent in any situation. Playing a bunch of Battle Missions helped me to really solidify this list. If I can win and win consistently with these wolves in a dozen or more scenarios, then I think I've done my job. The over-arching theme is based around my Grey Hunters. They are the core of my army, capable of seizing and defending objectives as well as handling hard targets or Special Characters (Grey Hunter pack killed Commander Dante and his attendant assault squad in a single round of combat, go Wolf Standards and Power Fists!!!).

 

Like I've said since my first read-thru of our codex, we Wolves are the most flexible army in the game. I posted this question in the Ultramarines forum, and even they don't think we're broken, so I guess we're not. But damn fun to play!!!

[the jeske]

And Jeske, you are gravely mistaken young Skywalker (sorry movie quotes are my thing).

:tu: dude I dont know what your age is , but am many things but not young.

 

as your units go . A SW army doesnt need a TW mounted HQ . playing more RP or HQs in squads just works better.

 

vindicators are not a good anti tank unit . they have a one turn down time when shoting , low side armor and one weapon . I dont like tanks as hvy support[unless you play IG and using 6+ of them] but even a las pred with a blown up gun still can use 2 other , a vindicator turns in to a high cost LoS blocker[and considering he doesnt counter stuff on turn one , the chance that this will happen is not small].

 

 

The army is also highly mobile, and is great fun to play, which I have to say is the MOST important thing.

Ah so in your subconciousness you do know they are a lot worse , then say LF .

 

Mech IG List: *snip*

this is now how a 2k points IG mecha looks like.

 

We've not gone to the OTT stage, like the new Blood Angels, or have been given a huge boost on our only asset, like 'Nids.

yeah like nids...oh wait they didnt even dominate tournaments when their dex was fresh and new and in face something unheared before happened for them . Each and every basic or buffed unit/build could be countered by SW , a codex that hit the shops before nids 0_o ...

You have the anti armor firepower but by using the Vindicators you can drop the hammer on mob armies like Tyranids and Orcs as well.

vindicator. one shot one tanks , cover +4 everywhere against troops . 1 wound again MC.

5 RL in LFx3 . any MC dead. rhinos and tanks stuned or poped , even LR can be countered .

15 Frag blast does more to horde then 3 vindicator demo canones , because A LF will shot from turn one and vindi have a turn of doing nothing , B a stuned vindi does nothing and single LF with a RL still does something C it is easier to keep range with a LF unit then a vindi and it is easier to LoS block them with a rhino or razorback .