Are we broken?

[Grey Mage]

We've not gone to the OTT stage, like the new Blood Angels, or have been given a huge boost on our only asset, like 'Nids.

yeah like nids...oh wait they didnt even dominate tournaments when their dex was fresh and new and in face something unheared before happened for them . Each and every basic or buffed unit/build could be countered by SW , a codex that hit the shops before nids 0_o ...

Whats that I smell? Game balance?

 

Jeske, I could have sworn you didnt believe in it! Because frankly, Nidz have a counter for our units too, if theyre smart enough to use them.

[Thunderhawk3015]

Jeske, couple problems with your comments on vindicators. Your forgetting an important part of the overall army list, its designed to be mobile and up close, having vindicators helps with that as they can also tank shock through terrain(siege shield FTW), and players will be scared of them and thus focus firepower on them instead of the Grey Hunters Rhinos. Vindicators Drop pie plates that are instant death to everything not in cover which is quite useful when you draw someones units out, and with a mechanized force that is going to happen because the mech force has the mobility to do that between their movement and ability to close quickly to unload mass firepower.

 

Tactical thinking using all the tools at your disposal means that units can be used for unorthodox means. Case in point, when I roll in my raider's I ram and tank shock everything I can with them after I drop off the cargo of doom. The closer you are the more options you have. Add to that, everyone expects Long Fangs and Land Raiders, what they don't expect is Predators, Land Speeders, and Whirlwinds because they do not fit into most peoples "optimal" ideas, but when it comes down to it, you can still have an optimal list that uses those units by making up for what you still need in other areas.

[wolf363839]

hey Jeske, what exactly is your point here? Clearly you aren't a fan of Vindicators...so what? If you prefer Long Fangs, then take the Long Fangs. I enjoy having somewhat mobile firepower that attracts attention away from my troops. If you don't like that, then don't do it! Everybody has their own take on Wolves based on how they play them. The point of this discussion was to ask you all if my mech list seemed broken or min/maxed because I've been doing rather well with it. Don't belittle other folks opinions just because you think you have all the answers. This is supposed to be a friendly discussion of how we Wolves are kickin' butt.

[Roland Durendal]

I actually agree with Jeske with regards to LF vs. Vindis. Granted a S10 blast will be more effective (assuming no to minimal scatter) against AV 13-14, but agains the prevailing AV's we see out there (AV11-12), 5X ML armed LF (assuming a pack of 6) are much more effective for 2 reasons:

 

1). Assuming you don't split fire, you have a higher chance of getting multiple damage results on that AV11-12 vehicle

2). SPLIT FIRE! Why take out just 1 vehicle, when you can possibly take out 2?

 

And as I wrote in another thread here some time ago, and as I wrote in my article on "3++ Is the New Black", shooting to kill the enemy is a 4th Ed mind set. We're in the age of Mech. You don't have to kill his vehicles or transports to be effective...all you need to do is "Shoot to Stun". What that menas is achieving "Stunned", "Immobilzed", "Wrecked" and "Destroyed" results all favor you for they limit/deny (or outright take away) your opponents ability to manuever and shoot. 5XML achieve this result with much more efficiency than 1 Vindicator (as the 2 points above mention).

 

Now I do disagree with Jeske on the point of Thunderlords. Pound for pound a Thunderlord is one of the MOST effective HQ's in the game. Expensive? Mine runs about as much as the new Meph, and can roll through MEQs with ease, and STILL take on MC's and such with little trouble. He's only weak against vehicles, but I have other troops to do that (LF's, TWC with MBs or TH, GH's with Melta, etc)

 

Wolf Lord Tyr has eaten through an entire Death Co squad singlehandedly. Truly there is nothing that can survive an attack by a TWM Lord.

 

And if you're wondering, Tyr has the following:

TWM; WC; SS; WTT; WTN; Saga of the Warrior Born: 245points, which he more than makes up every game.

[Stormshrug]

Meh, I still manage to lose plenty. Our army is undoubtably strong and extremely flexible, but not so strong that it can make up for bad dice rolls. Are we 'better' than most other armies? Probably, considering that 5th Ed. armies have been VERY strong, and most armies are still 4th or 3rd. Are we drastically better than comparable 5th ed armies? No.

 

-Stormshrug

[Wispy]

the op had to go ask this question in the ultramarine forum. The ignorance and arrogance of some of the responses actually made me mad and I was likea little kid and couldn't hold back and responded. Bad Elite and Fast Attack slots? Bad psychic tools? Seriously, are we talking about the same Space Wolves? :rolleyes:

 

Come on, at least give credit where credit is due.

[Walter Payton]

I'm going to give the same concise and simple answer I gave in the thread you poster in the Ultramarines forum on this same subject: No.

[Grey Mage]

I'm going to give the same concise and simple answer I gave in the thread you poster in the Ultramarines forum on this same subject: No.

Well, atleast this time it has a bit more context.

[Paladus]

The space wolves are not broken (although living lightning is quite brutal.) No more so than blood angels or imperial guard were "broken" when they were released it's just that it takes some time to work out where you stand with them but thats true of most new armies. Guard seemed broken when they were released but they aren't they just seemed hard to deal with now they are back to shooting stuff and being brutalized by pretty much anything that can lay it's hands on them. I think that the wolves codex can be broken if you try but then so can most.

[Niiai]

I guess its possible that these folks don't see many fully mechanized lists, but I doubt it. I've even played several other SM players who seem geared up for anti-mech, i.e. lots and lots of melta, but nothing they've tried works. The one recent loss I have was to a SM list, but my dice were so terrible in that game that even the on-lookers were shocked, so it wasn't like I made terrible tactical decisions. Normally I'd be jumping for joy, but it is just a game after all, and winning shouldn't be so one-sided in an evenly matched game...oh well, guess I'll just keep on clawing!

 

While melta are good melta is not very good against your list.

 

For the 2 vindicators you need long range stun/gun destroyed. And for the rhinos melta could work if you worked in pairs, but what they need is something that kills the units inside the rhino. Not the rhino. A dread in mellee with them would be cool. <_< Especialy a heavy melta dread (but of course you would have the drop on it by driving 12" deploy out and shoot him.)

[wolf363839]

Roland, your argument for LF's is completely valid. I don't use them, but I have in the past and just happen to prefer the vindy. Which ever you choose, they both can help your army.

 

I asked my primary question in the Ultra's forum just so that I could get an "outsider's" opinion. They came up with similar responses, although they were a little disparaging towards us Wolves. You can really tell the difference in personality between long time Wolf players and long time Ultra's. At least after we're done punching each other in the face we'll still have a beer together!

[DV8]

The Space Wolves are a completely balanced Codex with almost little to no poor choices. Everything is valid, and in the proper list, everything has its uses.

 

That is why, I think, most people consider Space Wolves to so decidely "broken" or "over the top", because they're used to encountering a new super codex, figuring out what the generic build is, and then building a counter for that into their army. The problem is that they can't do that with Space Wolves. The book is so well written, so absolutely versatile (that I'm tempted to simply call it Codex: Astartes), that there is no one generic build. And so every Space Wolf list they encounter (and lose to) is different, thus further hampering their ability to "figure our Codex out".

 

In fact I dare say that the only truly effective counter to the Space Wolves is another balanced list, capable of taking on all comers.

 

And especially at that competitive level, certain Codices lend themselves to particular builds. For Imperial Guard, it's armored mech. For Orks, it's either the horde or a mounted mech army. For Tau, it's suit heavy. But when someone plays against Space Wolves, they can't say to themselves "oh, it'll be a mech army", "it'll be a drop pod assault force", or "it'll be a footslogging force", because with the Space Wolf book, it could be any one of them, and remain a potent force regardless of the list style. I myself field a very vanilla style of army, and for the first few weeks when I brought out my army, everybody was surprised by how I played them (and lets just say the local Games Workshop has sold many more Land Speeders since I unveiled my Wolves). Even today they find it difficult to counter my army.

 

As to the Long Fangs and Vindicator debate, again both have their uses, and you cannot simply measure it in simple "kill power". You fail to take into consideration the roles the units play in the broader scope of the specific army they were included in, and the psychological impact they can have on the game.

 

In terms of sheer versatile kill factor, Long Fangs are more effective, but they achieve it at a cost, being more expensive than the Vindicator (anything above Missile Launchers puts them exponentially higher). With split fire they can engage multiple targets and their range and the ability to take advantage of cover makes them a difficult target to engage because they will be turtling in the back lines while the wolves advance. Their strength, however, is mitigated by the fact that they are an immobile unit, and are heavily dependent on maintaining good lanes of fire. Bad terrain placement, other wrecks, or just a crafty opponent taking advantage of the terrain, could mitigate the firepower of the Long Fangs.

 

A Vindicator is very shock and awe. A pair of trio of them leading from the front of an armored assault will make any player quake in their boots, and that is something that cannot be underestimated. A Vindicator's strength lies in its mobility, using cover and armor to survive, and with the siege shield, potentially engaging from unexpected angles of attack. While the Vindicator must get up close to engage the enemy with its Demolisher cannon, it really comes into its own when you saturate the enemy with so many armored targets that he has to make a difficult choice: target the Vindicator and ignore the rest of the army, or target the rest of the army and ignore the Vindicator. It would be most unwise to attempt to engage both and dilute his firepower even further.

 

With all that said, Long Fangs are great on their own, and can be incorporated into any list. A Vindicator is very much a synergistic unit, and its strength increases if it is fielded with a purpose in mind, and supported towards that purpose.

 

 

DV8

[Requiem of the Wolf]

The Space Wolves are a completely balanced Codex with almost little to no poor choices. Everything is valid, and in the proper list, everything has its uses.

 

That is why, I think, most people consider Space Wolves to so decidely "broken" or "over the top", because they're used to encountering a new super codex, figuring out what the generic build is, and then building a counter for that into their army. The problem is that they can't do that with Space Wolves. The book is so well written, so absolutely versatile (that I'm tempted to simply call it Codex: Astartes), that there is no one generic build. And so every Space Wolf list they encounter (and lose to) is different, thus further hampering their ability to "figure our Codex out".

 

In fact I dare say that the only truly effective counter to the Space Wolves is another balanced list, capable of taking on all comers.

 

And especially at that competitive level, certain Codices lend themselves to particular builds. For Imperial Guard, it's armored mech. For Orks, it's either the horde or a mounted mech army. For Tau, it's suit heavy. But when someone plays against Space Wolves, they can't say to themselves "oh, it'll be a mech army", "it'll be a drop pod assault force", or "it'll be a footslogging force", because with the Space Wolf book, it could be any one of them, and remain a potent force regardless of the list style. I myself field a very vanilla style of army, and for the first few weeks when I brought out my army, everybody was surprised by how I played them (and lets just say the local Games Workshop has sold many more Land Speeders since I unveiled my Wolves). Even today they find it difficult to counter my army.

 

As to the Long Fangs and Vindicator debate, again both have their uses, and you cannot simply measure it in simple "kill power". You fail to take into consideration the roles the units play in the broader scope of the specific army they were included in, and the psychological impact they can have on the game.

 

In terms of sheer versatile kill factor, Long Fangs are more effective, but they achieve it at a cost, being more expensive than the Vindicator (anything above Missile Launchers puts them exponentially higher). With split fire they can engage multiple targets and their range and the ability to take advantage of cover makes them a difficult target to engage because they will be turtling in the back lines while the wolves advance. Their strength, however, is mitigated by the fact that they are an immobile unit, and are heavily dependent on maintaining good lanes of fire. Bad terrain placement, other wrecks, or just a crafty opponent taking advantage of the terrain, could mitigate the firepower of the Long Fangs.

 

A Vindicator is very shock and awe. A pair of trio of them leading from the front of an armored assault will make any player quake in their boots, and that is something that cannot be underestimated. A Vindicator's strength lies in its mobility, using cover and armor to survive, and with the siege shield, potentially engaging from unexpected angles of attack. While the Vindicator must get up close to engage the enemy with its Demolisher cannon, it really comes into its own when you saturate the enemy with so many armored targets that he has to make a difficult choice: target the Vindicator and ignore the rest of the army, or target the rest of the army and ignore the Vindicator. It would be most unwise to attempt to engage both and dilute his firepower even further.

 

With all that said, Long Fangs are great on their own, and can be incorporated into any list. A Vindicator is very much a synergistic unit, and its strength increases if it is fielded with a purpose in mind, and supported towards that purpose.

 

 

DV8

This...a thousand times this. Very well said Brother.

[Logan230]

I think that is the best description of the Wolves that I have ever heard or seen, DV8. Thank you, and get a keg of ale!

[wolf363839]

Nicely put DV8. We are not broken, we are unpredictable and therefore harder to plan against. As a player, that's why I've always enjoyed planning all-comers armies. No matter who you play, you're ready for anything.

[DV8]

Nicely put DV8. We are not broken, we are unpredictable and therefore harder to plan against. As a player, that's why I've always enjoyed planning all-comers armies. No matter who you play, you're ready for anything.

 

The problem is that the Space Wolves are not harder to plan against. It simply requires a different mindset, one less focused on the meta-game and more broadly encompassing of the army potentials that are available in 40k. The tricky part is that army builds like this are less reliant on the list itself, and relies more heavily on the player. And unfortunately so many people have come to expect that "point-and-click" style of play that they have lost touch with the concept that they might actually have to think and plan ahead in this game. And I have a sneaking suspicion that most of those who would complain that the Space Wolves of all codices to be broken have probably never played a game of Fantasy in their life, much less could possibly be players of any competence of the Fantasy system (to really understand that a broken, powerful codex does not a winning army make).

 

Neither are we "unpredictable" in the sense that our opponents cannot possibly know what we will do, or what we'll be good at. There is an irreconcilable difference between the methodology of an army and the core tenets that make the army "unique".

 

Going up against Space Wolves, without even knowing my opponent's list, I could tell you several things automatically:

 

1. Powerful characters. Whether it's the 250/260+ pt Thunder Lord, or the simple 110 pt Rune Priest, I can expect their characters to play a heavy hand in the army. They don't simply "buff" the army like say Imperial Guard Commanders, but they play a front-line role (much like an Ork Warboss)
   
2. Cheap infantry. With some of the most tactically flexible infantry for the best of price, means I can expect to face lots of toys and still see a sizable amount of marines.
   
3. Synergy. Like all Space Marines, Space Wolves must build their entire strategy on the support of other units. That is to say, Space Marines need their units to work in tandem to hammer the enemy into submission and wipe them off the field. Far from point and click.
   
4. Firepower. Being as familiar as I am with the Space Wolf book, Space Wolf firepower is divided into particular "sets". The close-to-mid range provided by the bulk of the units (Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard, Bikes, etc.), while some of the longer ranged firepower is either from Long Fangs or Cyclone Guard, or mounted on vehicles. Now this would seem like any other army, but for the main difference that unlike a generic Space Marine Tactical Squad that must choose to sit and shoot it's heavy weapon(s), or move up and lose out on that firepower to engage with their bolters/specials, Space Wolves don't have to make that choice. Grey Hunters will always be running and gunning in the front lines, Long Fangs will always be tucked away in the back. And in between will be the mobile firepower. What this tells me is that I cannot force the Space Wolves to divide their attention because their units are built for a purpose. They rely far more heavily on unit synergy, and their units are more particularly focused, but it also means that the army is VASTLY more efficient.
   
5. As all Space Marine armies, Space Wolves are the jack of all trades, masters of none. This was mentioned before, but I don't think the user really grasped what it truly means. This means that Space Marine armies on a whole can do everything, but they don't excel at everything. Other armies can shoot better, and other armies can fight better. But those that shoot cannot fight. Those that can fight cannot shoot. Well, at any rate, Space Marines are in the middle ground. So if I encounter a far shootier army than me with my Wolves, I fight it. If I come up against a far fightier army than mine, I shoot it. And you approach that same methodology when fighting a Space Wolf army. Because of how the units are geared, and the synergy required, a particularly shootier Space Wolf army takes more shooty units and forgoes some of the more popular/stronger combat units. This means that it will suffer in combat, and that is where you must engage it. Likewise, a Space Wolf army that takes the fight to you and engages you in mid/close range, will tend to have less long ranged firepower, and that is the weakness you must exploit.
   

 

Now while the I may not know what specific units are in the Space Wolf army in question, I know that regardless of the army it will incorporate the bulk of, if not all of the above, factors I must take into account when I plan my strategy.

 

And this kind of thinking can and should be applied to every army in Warhammer 40k. Understand your foe, become like him. Learn his strengths and weaknesses and you will understand how to defeat him.

 

 

DV8

[Grey Mage]

And I have a sneaking suspicion that most of those who would complain that the Space Wolves of all codices to be broken have probably never played a game of Fantasy in their life, much less could possibly be players of any competence of the Fantasy system.

I have always, always felt that being a fantasy player first gave me a step up in 40k tactics.

 

And this kind of thinking can and should be applied to every army in Warhammer 40k. Understand your foe, become like him. Learn his strengths and weaknesses and you will understand how to defeat him.

Darn straight.

[wolf363839]

I think DV8 has studied Sun Tzu, and I agree with each of his points.

 

There is a difference in the interpretation of the terminology that I used, but your expanded explanation is spot on.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

In addition to knowing your opponent's army,it helps to know your opponent just as well. If you watch how they deploy,how they play that first turn,you can get insights into their thinking. One turn won't tell you everything,but if you pay attention you can get a few ideas and that might help prepare you for any little surprises they have set up.

[Grimtooth]

wrong topic

[Pigeons]

man i'm loving the responses in this thread

 

 

 

you guys are playing the game right. i am SO tired of power gamers, that look at an army list and go "well you should take this this and this instead because they're more powerful than what you took"...ugh.

 

 

 

strategy always gets left completely out of the equation, which is ridiculously frustrating.

 

 

 

any army can win on any sunday with a good commander. period.

 

 

you don't have to play a two demon prince, 4 plague marine in rhinos list to win.

 

 

it's so good to know that some people still realize that.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

man i'm loving the responses in this thread

 

 

 

you guys are playing the game right. i am SO tired of power gamers, that look at an army list and go "well you should take this this and this instead because they're more powerful than what you took"...ugh.

 

 

 

strategy always gets left completely out of the equation, which is ridiculously frustrating.

 

 

 

any army can win on any sunday with a good commander. period.

 

 

you don't have to play a two demon prince, 4 plague marine in rhinos list to win.

 

 

it's so good to know that some people still realize that.

Well...You came to the forum of an army that is based around variety and creative thinking..it shouldn't be too much of a surprise *grins*

[Pigeons]

Well...You came to the forum of an army that is based around variety and creative thinking..it shouldn't be too much of a surprise *grins*

[\quote]

 

 

 

 

 

true. but for the record i play eldar and chaos. i just love every part of 40k, i eagerly devour every bit of possible fluff i can, i think it's all amazing :unsure:

[Requiem of the Wolf]

If there weren't Space Wolves I would probably play Eldar/Dark Eldar and Chaos..But these fit so much better. And yeah...the Space Wolf Fluff has allways been awesome. Though what i meant was,the Wolves are based around being versatile and unexpected,and that reflects in our methods and thinking most times.

[Pigeons]

If there weren't Space Wolves I would probably play Eldar/Dark Eldar and Chaos..But these fit so much better. And yeah...the Space Wolf Fluff has allways been awesome. Though what i meant was,the Wolves are based around being versatile and unexpected,and that reflects in our methods and thinking most times.

 

 

totally get your point, and if i had the money to start a third army, it'd be space wolves. sadly though, i don't :unsure:

 

 

 

i just play eldar because i feel they're one of the most tactically challenging armies to play, and i like a challenge. i don't want to just overwhelmingly win every game.

 

 

they're a great example of an army where every unit absolutely has to work in concert to win... i like that. ^.^