Are we broken?

[DV8]

I think DV8 has studied Sun Tzu, and I agree with each of his points.

 

I have, although a fair portion of Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" deals with the economics, politics, and logistics of war. And in point of fact the greatest maxim that Sun Tzu espoused was the ideal that the successful commander would not have to go to war; that a great leader would have won in the political or economic arena. That to go to war was already a failure on his part, and in doing so one should only go to war if already assured of success. To do so unprepared only invites further disaster.

 

But you should read it for yourself. It definitely opened my eyes and changed the way I played this wonderful game I like to call life.

 

 

DV8

[Whitefireinferno]

So the question is Is mech wolves Broken? and My answer to this is Full Mech Nope because BA can do it a tad better However since most people include TWM and claim them to be mech I would say nope aswell Twm fall to small arms fire the same as Dps and such at the same time I would not cry Broken about the BA dex sure if we take our UBER units the army tends to lack elsewhere so thats about it that being said all the PA codex have their strong points that we excell in and areas that we do not do too well.

[ChapniK]

In no way is the Space wolves codex broken. Like DV8 said SW units are well rounded and have a specific task at hand which they will not deviate from. In this way Space wolves units are much like the Aspect warriors of the Eldar, for example Grey hunters could easily be compared to a mix of Dire Avengers and Striking Scorpions. Whats this means is there will never be that moment, which Vanilla player have to deal with: Should my Tactical marines shoot that one missile launcher shoot or whittle down those ork.

 

@Whitefireinferno

I have to agree with you that BA are better in mech than SW as that was designed as the codex specialty with fast vehicles and all, whereas SW specialty lay in a mix of mech and cavalry. I do however disagree that TWC dies to small arms fire, the ability to maximized wound coverage means that a four man tWc will need to take five wounds before removing a model. That much more than what I Deamon prince can survive. Just to crank out some mathhammer here a full tactical squad rapid firing excluding the heavy weapon only inflict 1.2 wounds per turn.

[wolf363839]

re: DV8

 

Sun Tzu's Art of War is one of the greatest documents ever written. I've read it about 3 or 4 times over the years. Employed it in real life actually. Sounds like you may have as well. It is also interesting to see how many ways and how many venues you can use the Art of War.

 

 

 

After reading these few dozen posts, I can agree with the general assessment that we are not broken, regardless of army build. Just for the record, I wasn't a guy who ever said BA were broken or Tyranids were broken when they came out. It was only after playing and winning a lot with my Wolves did I become concerned to ask the question to the group.

 

I like Pigeon's comment about a tactically challenging army. It took me about 15 games to really dial in my army and the way I wanted it to look and play. (and continuing to learn) Knowing yourself...

[Wispy]

So the question is Is mech wolves Broken? TWM and claim them to be mech I would say nope aswell Twm fall to small arms fire

Sorry to say, but I think you really don't know what you're talking about. I've taken a bazillion lagun shots and only suffered two wounds and assaulted the squad the next turn (yum, IG). I've taken rapid fire from 20 tactical marines and only taken 3. T5 and 2 wounds mean the handle mass fire better then terminators.

 

If you're close enough to poor small arms fire at them, you're close enough to be assaulted, and you've lost your chance to shoot them twice. And if you're focusing small arms fire on them, well, you're not paying attention to my Grey Hunters.

[Decoy]

Kinda gotta agree with Wispy here (never thought I'd say that.) TWC/TWM are one of the few exceptions to small arms fire. At T5, the average Marine squad is estimated to cause, with Rapid Fire (AKA, charge range), only one wound with regular fire, and one (unsaveable) with a Lascannon/Plasmagun. Two wounds, one of which allows an armor save. If you're dedicating THAT much firepower to a TWC squad, that leaves for a lot of other stuff getting through. Might as well say that a Bloodthirster or a Nightbringer dies "Easily" to small arms fire.

[Whitefireinferno]

You may not agree But in my meta game anything out by itself In the way of TWM lords, Daemon princes, Greater Daemons,Mephy and C'tan all fail to massed small arms fire and even more if I decide to use their rides to pour Asscan shots at them. I also play Tau so I know how to decide what needs to die at the right times, Sure you can math hammer it all you like but it really does not factor in the Dice gods.

[Decoy]

Trust me, Inferno, if we were involving the Dice Gods, one squad of Thunder Cav or one Wolf Lord on a bike, under my command, could take on an entire army and win (And the Lord has done so, on numerous occasions. :) )

 

While I'm pretty much against Mathhammer in any capacity, the long and the short of it is that Thunderwolves have a far greater staying power than anything else worth their points in the game, on average. Asscannons (which, I presume, you're using Baals for, given your icon, so let's say two TL Asscannons shoot) will hit and wound with only 5 shots, and if we ignore one of those for Rending, only causes another 1.5 failed armor saves. So 2.5 successful wounds for two Twin Linked Asscannon shots, meaning (Let's round up) three wounds spread throughout the squad. Add that to the Tac squad's shooting, and you STILL haven't killed one Thunderwolf.

 

I'll concede that those of us blessed by the Dice Gods tend to throw such statistics to the wind, but as a general average to a general player, your advice is fairly poor. Thunderwolves are one of those niche units that simply don't fit into any standard archetype to kill them, other than "Throw S10 stuff at them." They don't die easily to small or medium arms, they die... very slowly to AP 2-3 weaponry, and by the time you've got that much firepower going into that one squad, you've pretty much already lost the game by allowing all the rest of the army to close. Essentially, a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario which you seem to have ignored. "What needs to die at the right times" seems lost on you in this regard; Thunderwolves, while potent, are not a game-breaking unit unless you let them be. Sure, let them charge and get into combat, kill everything. Now they're in MAJOR rapidfire range of plasma, Melta, et cetera, while the majority of your true antitank continues to fire downrange, slowing (or mowing) down the infantry in their masses. To categorize Thunderwolves as "small-arms fire"-fodder is folly in the extreme for the "general" gamer who doesn't have the Dice Gods upon his shoulders.

[Wispy]

Well, sure, you can still disagree, but you're still wrong. Disregarding math and the averages and disagreeing because of luck strikes me as being kind of near sighted. Even people who don't factor heavily into knowing the exact numbers know where the strengths of their army lie. Thunderwolf Cavalry are durable, and we like them for a reason (besides marines riding wolves being awesome, of course :RTBBB:!)!

 

I'm not big on math hammer, but I know what you're talking about is poor strategy, and you can tell why with just one quick glance: a squad of thunderwolf cavalry has way more wounds then any of those things you just listed.

 

Also in a squad of 5 you have to wound them 6 times to kill one.

 

Also, they can have storm shields.

 

Also, a Thunderlord would never be caught in the open by himself for you to focus fire off the table - embedded in cavalry, they're even more durable.

 

Also... Well, you get the picture.

 

kinda gotta agree with Wispy here (never thought I'd say that.)

Aw, I always suspected you hated me but now I know. :) but that's okay, I'm not here because I want to be liked - I'm here because Space Wolves are awesome and I like talking about them.

[Decoy]

Don't hate ya, Wispy, but I don't like ya either. Don't gotta like ya to agree with ya. :)

[Wispy]

Me and my Frost Axe still got your back, Decoy. :)

[Whitefireinferno]

To Decoy I do see your point, And yes some of my rending shots come from Baals but most come from Razorback spam and for some reason the Dice gods love me like getting at least half my asscan shots to rend People think I use weighted dice WHICH I DO NOT and I even offer to use their Dice and it still happens and on rare occasions I have offered to re-roll the lot with their Dice but they have to take that roll.

 

Also I have had a few games against Wolves as of late (roughly 10) and had 2 wins 7 draws 1 loss and a couple of those draws were REALLY close. Also I did not come here to start a fight I came to give my opinion on what the OP asked.

 

Also The op said Thunder lord not a unit so yeah I was really basing my judgement on a single guy with maybe a couple of fen wolves

[Decoy]

Oh, aye, my bad. I continually get those mixed up; When I hear Thunder Cav, I automatically think "with attached Thunder Lord", that's my common stupidity. :P

[Grey Mage]

You may not agree But in my meta game anything out by itself In the way of TWM lords, Daemon princes, Greater Daemons,Mephy and C'tan all fail to massed small arms fire and even more if I decide to use their rides to pour Asscan shots at them. I also play Tau so I know how to decide what needs to die at the right times, Sure you can math hammer it all you like but it really does not factor in the Dice gods.

Nah, I think your local meta-game has SW players taking to many toys and not enough boys.

 

Though to be honest, I see that in alot of places, so I shant be suprised.

[Branek Icefang]

Thats it though isnt it Grey?

 

Space Wolves are able to field a substantial amount fo boys, but when you start adding in the toys they get expensive, 63 points for a TH/SS termi.

[Grey Mage]

Wich is why I only take one of them, and then only in larger games- I have better things to spend my points on.

 

In fact, I tend to max out an FOC, save for two more GH packs, at 1850.

[Wispy]

I basically have my one expensive unit, and the rest of my lists saturated with Grey Hunters.

 

Whitefireinferno - I apologize, I thought you were talking about TWC in general. True, a lord on his own would suffer to small arms fire quite easily, though I have experienced both incredible luck and poor luck with one on his own before. the dice gods swing both ways.