Fists vs. Swords

[Isryion]

I realize that this discussion has been had many times before, and the conclusion is usually a majority view power fists as the better option. However, with our new codex, might this issue be worth revisiting?

 

The main reason I'm thinking it's at least worth discussing again is that our troops often have furious charge, which means your wounding more easily. I also realize that fists are better against vehicles, but assault troops often have easy access to melta type weapons. Overall I'm still thinking the fist is better (because it gets all of those things, too), but wanted to hear if there are some other thoughts on it.

[Lestat]

Although the powerfist has been the mainstay of many an Assault Squads Sergeant, for an extra 5 points, you can give him a power weapon and infernus pistol. Three infernus pistols in a 10 man squad equals much more tank killabilty in my book!

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Although the powerfist has been the mainstay of many an Assault Squads Sergeant, for an extra 5 points, you can give him a power weapon and infernus pistol. Three infernus pistols in a 10 man squad equals much more tank killabilty in my book!

I would say it would depend on what you are likely to be doing with that squad. If you are going to be using them as Anti-Infantry, then since you will be more then likely striking before MEQ's with your furious charge,being able to kill 2 or more enemies before they can hit you will be of great use.

 

If you are going to be fighting say,eldar...you will probably be striking second even with FC so might as well have the Powerfist. If you are going after vehicles,then Powerfist is a good choice.

[SamaNagol]

If you are fighting Eldar then a St5 Power Weapon is going to kill on 2s anyway.

 

The only thing I would say a solitary Hammer is absolutely necessary for is against Tryanid MCs or Chaos Daemon Princes. The stun is important. Any other armoured opponents you can either take down via our easy access to melta and cheap Razorbacks, or outmaneuvre them and send in the harder hitting units like Assault Terms and DC.

 

I am currently a big fan of a single Lightning Claw

[JamesI]

In most situations fists still win over power weapons, even with furious charge. In my armies, if a squad can only have one special ccw, it will almost always be a fist or a thunder hammer. If I can add a second, then I go to power weapons.

 

I used to run 2 assault squads with furious charge. One used a fist, the other a power axe. The fist one was always better so eventually I just used fist squads.

[Spassbueroler]

I am asking me the same question. Is a fist really necessary for our troops? With FC we have S5 an so the extra strength provided by the PF isn't always needed. Here is an example:

 

Attacks Hits Wounds

FC - DC vs MEQ

PW: 4 - 2,67 - 1,78

PF: 3 - 2 - 1,67

 

FC – Assault vs MEQ

PW: 4 - 2 - 1,33

PF: 3 - 1,5 - 1,25

 

FC – DC, Assault vs GEQ

PW: 4 - 2,67 - 2,22

PF: 3 - 2 - 1,67

 

The PW will get you more wounds everytime. Though the fist is nice for insta kills. I am thinking of swapping PF against PW on my Assault Squads. Anyone tried this?

 

Second Round of combat or if you get charged looks different of course. So I am not quiet sure what to choose.

 

Attacks Hits Wounds

DC vs MEQ

PW: 3 - 2 - 1

PF: 2 - 1,33 - 1,11

 

Assault vs MEQ

PW: 3 - 1,5 - 0,75

PF: 2 - 1 - 0,83

[fudal78]

It's not just about the ease of causing wounds with a Power Fist it's also to do with the fact that the Power Weapon is going to be striking at the same initiative as the majority of your squad's attacks. You may think this is a good thing but if you are causing a lot of non-power weapon wounds at the same initiative, your opponent is going to be able to allocate the majority, if not all, of the Power Weapon wounds onto one model rendering the lack of an armour save somewhat ineffective.

 

Because the Power Fist strikes last you resolve these hits and wounds separately to the rest of your squads attacks denying the opponent the option to stack these armour ignoring wounds onto one model. This is the true benefit of a Power Fist over a Power Weapon as well as being able to at least do something should the squad get charged by a Dreadnought or similar (your Inferno Pistols will not help you if the Dread is able to charge you).

[Redo]

It's not just about the ease of causing wounds with a Power Fist it's also to do with the fact that the Power Weapon is going to be striking at the same initiative as the majority of your squad's attacks. You may think this is a good thing but if you are causing a lot of non-power weapon wounds at the same initiative, your opponent is going to be able to allocate the majority, if not all, of the Power Weapon wounds onto one model rendering the lack of an armour save somewhat ineffective.

 

Because the Power Fist strikes last you resolve these hits and wounds separately to the rest of your squads attacks denying the opponent the option to stack these armour ignoring wounds onto one model. This is the true benefit of a Power Fist over a Power Weapon as well as being able to at least do something whould the squad get charged by a Dreadnought or similar (your Inferno Pistols will not help you if the Dread is able to charge you).

 

You sir have raised a very important point. Against many opponents this is crucial. Other people have mentioned the benefit of the stun. This can be also important, though it becomes rather costly to put a powerfist on every Sergeant that can have one. A bit of mix and match here.

 

Just to add fuel to the flames; How about Fist vs. Claw? I generally place a fist on all >5 man units, and my second choice is usually a claw if I can. I find the re-rolls to wound, even with S5 are priceless. Especially against monsterous creatures and even T4 troops...lately I seem to be rolling a lot of 2's.

[JamesI]

It's not just about the ease of causing wounds with a Power Fist it's also to do with the fact that the Power Weapon is going to be striking at the same initiative as the majority of your squad's attacks. You may think this is a good thing but if you are causing a lot of non-power weapon wounds at the same initiative, your opponent is going to be able to allocate the majority, if not all, of the Power Weapon wounds onto one model rendering the lack of an armour save somewhat ineffective.

 

Because the Power Fist strikes last you resolve these hits and wounds separately to the rest of your squads attacks denying the opponent the option to stack these armour ignoring wounds onto one model. This is the true benefit of a Power Fist over a Power Weapon as well as being able to at least do something whould the squad get charged by a Dreadnought or similar (your Inferno Pistols will not help you if the Dread is able to charge you).

well said. This is why I like ICs with Initiative 5 (go before the rest so you can't wound allocation away their power weapons) and fists for regular guys.

 

Also, the fist helps defend against monsterous creatures and dreadnoughts. Sure you can use a meltabomb against a dread, but hitting on 6 until its immobilzed stinks. And the meltabomb is no defense against MCs.

 

Plus strength 9 powerfists/thunder hammers is fun. I kill a lot of Land Raiders by charging them with thunder hammers and furious charge.

[Law]

Plus, a fist can make some opponents think twice about charging or counter-charging your unit, giving you a small psychological advantage a PW doesn't offer.

[Rob_Loken]

I find power weapons on the charge more enjoyable to use. If it weren't for my sarge with a PW I wouldn't have taken out Abaddon's bodyguard allowing Astorath to put the smack down on him. With furious charge the power weapons are great and the extra initiative means you have the chance to kill more troops before they can strike back. However if you are taking power weapons, you may want to invest in melta / plasma weaponry to take out armour. Or take melta bombs. For less than a power fist you could equip your sarg with a power weapon and melta bombs.

[daboarder]

The biggest reason people take PF over PW is because what do you do if that sqaud gets assualt by say...a wraithlord and it only has a PW?

[Droofus]

That and insta-killing T4 or less.

 

Think bout it: all those lovely multi-wound T4 tyranid creatures and all those ICs from other armies. It's still a power fist's world!

[Tokunator]

Exactly. ICs, 'Nid Warriors and Nob Bikers respect and fear the Fist and that's all the reasons I need to equip most Sergeants with Fists.

 

Nevertheless, I do run one of my 4 Assault Squads (2000-2500 points) with double flamer, Power Sword and Hand Flamer on the Sergeant to really give hordes something to worry about too.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

quick note to the people talking about what happens if your squad gets assaulted by a dereadnought or something similar...it's rather simple, pop those things before they get into range to charge you. that's part of being a general, seeing your opponents maneuvers, and countering them. (not necessarily shooting right off the bat, but if you see the moving that way, get in position to keep it from happening.)

[Brother Kovash]

The way I've drawn up my list, I have a PW, PF, and LC in each squad. The PF is in the melta squad, and I'm counting on them to go tank hunting. From playing with my Ultramarines (please no flames), that extra punch waiting at the end of the assault has helped me win combat or take out some armor when I really needed it.

[Firedrake28]

quick note to the people talking about what happens if your squad gets assaulted by a dereadnought or something similar...it's rather simple, pop those things before they get into range to charge you. that's part of being a general, seeing your opponents maneuvers, and countering them. (not necessarily shooting right off the bat, but if you see the moving that way, get in position to keep it from happening.)

 

That's nice in theory, but the reality of the matter is that at times you can't avoid enemy units, or your attempts to stop them in their tracks don't end up working out. It's in times like these that having a power fist is comforting as it gives you a chance of saving a unit that would otherwise be doomed (like in the Wraithlord or Dreadnought example).

 

As for the topic at hand, Furious Charge doesn't change that the power fist is the superior choice in a take all comers style list. Like before, the only time you really want power weapons is on Independent Characters to take advantage of their (usually) superior Initiative and Weapon Skill characteristics. Captains and Sanguinary Priests both benefit greatly from power weapons as they hit most enemies on a 3+ in close combat.

[daboarder]

just a note, while the powerfist is superior for a unit like RAS or Tac squads I agree with james. As soon as you have the option to take multiples you take more PW's, ie; 6 man VAS with PF and 2 PW's.

[SamaNagol]

I run my units for specific purposes. I feel if you load out jack of all trades units you end up being ineffective. For that purpose I have 1 6man unit with a Thunder Hammer and Melta, and another 2 6man units with 1 Lightning Claw and a Meltagun.

 

The reason I run the power weapons is because I want to reduce the numbers striking back against my 6 man units as much as possible.

 

If you have a big 10 man squad, then you are survivable enough to absorb those 2 or 3 extra attacking models so the Fist can swing and win the combat for you at the end.

 

Personally, I try my hardest to not get out of my Transport unless I know mathematically I have a 2/3 chance of winning the combat without taking many casualties. I think that is a hold over from playing a pure Grey Knight force.

[JamesI]

just a note, while the powerfist is superior for a unit like RAS or Tac squads I agree with james. As soon as you have the option to take multiples you take more PW's, ie; 6 man VAS with PF and 2 PW's.

I started my Vanguard with a power weapon, lightning claws and a fist. I've since dropped the claws for a thunder hammer. I needed more powerful stuff.

 

Of course, the reclusiarch and sanguinary priest add more power weapons, so it evens out.

[daboarder]

just a note, while the powerfist is superior for a unit like RAS or Tac squads I agree with james. As soon as you have the option to take multiples you take more PW's, ie; 6 man VAS with PF and 2 PW's.

I started my Vanguard with a power weapon, lightning claws and a fist. I've since dropped the claws for a thunder hammer. I needed more powerful stuff.

 

Of course, the reclusiarch and sanguinary priest add more power weapons, so it evens out.

 

thats not a bad idea, do you use them mostly for tank/MC hunting? I tend to use my VAS as heroic interventioning reserves and I tell you in 4 out of 6 games that looked like they would be a loss at the start of turn 3....welll the ability to drop nasty combat units right into the enemy is lovely.

[JamesI]

just a note, while the powerfist is superior for a unit like RAS or Tac squads I agree with james. As soon as you have the option to take multiples you take more PW's, ie; 6 man VAS with PF and 2 PW's.

I started my Vanguard with a power weapon, lightning claws and a fist. I've since dropped the claws for a thunder hammer. I needed more powerful stuff.

 

Of course, the reclusiarch and sanguinary priest add more power weapons, so it evens out.

 

thats not a bad idea, do you use them mostly for tank/MC hunting? I tend to use my VAS as heroic interventioning reserves and I tell you in 4 out of 6 games that looked like they would be a loss at the start of turn 3....welll the ability to drop nasty combat units right into the enemy is lovely.

I rarely use HI. Instead I attach my Reclusiarch and Sanguinary Priest. Send them at whatever I want to kill. Pretty much wipes it out.

[SamaNagol]

Anyone who allows that unit to reach them deserves to be wiped out.

[daboarder]

I'd highly recomend trying it. In the last 3 weeks I've played 6 games, one squad mishaped once and another squad scattered away from stuff once, the rest of the times my 2 HI'ing VAS have literaly comepletely turned the tide of the battle. And even those days where they didn't drop like I wanted they still punch bellow the belt.

[Isryion]

Anyone who allows that unit to reach them deserves to be wiped out.

 

Not to get to far off topic, but a good player will limit your options. People always make comments like this in a vacuum.