Saga of the Hunter

[commander alexander]

i am sure this has been asked before, but I cant find it. If a character has Saga of the Hunter, does his Outflank ability apply to a unit he is attached to? If so this could really be useful, what I have in mind is a Wolf Priest and a pack of Skyclaws. Being able to outflank would make them vicious <_< , or at least make them worth their points.

[Grey Mage]

No, it lets him go with a unit that can otherwise outflank... but outflank is a non-transferable USR.

 

Thankfully.

[commander alexander]

Oh, now that just ruined it <_<

[Grey Mage]

Sorry, but the implications for other armies are much harsher on us....

 

What really ruined it was the inability to take it on a TWM, or give it to FWs IMHO.

[Skirax]

Besides, I don't think SotH can be given to a Jump Pack Wolf Priest...

[Schertenleib]

No, it lets him go with a unit that can otherwise outflank... but outflank is a non-transferable USR.

 

Thankfully.

 

 

Actually I think the trouble with SotH is the fact that outflank is not a USR it is an ability granted by two USR's (Scout or Infiltrate). All the confusion with SotH would have been avoided if it just confered Scout or Infiltrate USR's.

[Stormshrug]

Besides, I don't think SotH can be given to a Jump Pack Wolf Priest...

 

It is "Infantry" only.

 

A WP with a JP is "Jump Infantry," an entirely different classification.

 

-Stormshrug

[Godhead]

I am probably beating a dead horse here, but how does saga of the hunter interact with wolf scouts? Saga of the hunter gives the IC the ability to outflank,

 

Scouts outflank like normal, but have a modified table as to which table edge they arrive on.

 

The rulebook specifies how IC's and units interact in regards to special rules, but outflank is an ability, not a special rule. With saga of the hunter the IC also has the same special ability. Although, if you attached an IC with saga of the hunter to it, would the scouts then lose infiltrate because the IC doesn't have it? Could they can still utilize their ability to outflank, or would they technically lose that too since outflank is granted by the infiltrate and scouts special rules for this unit?

 

If for some reason they still kept the outflank ability, why or why not would the IC be allowed to outflank via BEL rules?

 

This line of thought makes my head hurt. :) It's a complete paradox. It would be fun to put a wolf priest or wgbl with scouts. It would absolutely make for some interesting lists.

 

**EDIT**

 

Ah nevermind. It seems like outflank is a movement type, but on page 88, BEL is listed as a "Special Rule" so I don't think there is any way to talk your way into BEL with an IC. Oh well.

[Blarmb]

I am probably beating a dead horse here, but how does saga of the hunter interact with wolf scouts? Saga of the hunter gives the IC the ability to outflank,

 

You give an IC Saga of The Hunter and it grants him the ability to outflank.

You attach him to a pack of Wolf Scouts.

The Wolf Scouts now have an IC attached without the 'Scouts' USR.

The Wolf Scouts lose the 'Scouts' special rule.

The Wolf Scouts can no longer outflank because they can only do so by virtue of the 'Scouts' USR.

OBEL Doesn't enter the picture because it's a conditional effect that comes into play when they outflank, which they can no longer do.

[Grey Mage]

I am probably beating a dead horse here, but how does saga of the hunter interact with wolf scouts? Saga of the hunter gives the IC the ability to outflank,

 

You give an IC Saga of The Hunter and it grants him the ability to outflank.

You attach him to a pack of Wolf Scouts.

The Wolf Scouts now have an IC attached without the 'Scouts' USR.

The Wolf Scouts lose the 'Scouts' special rule.

The Wolf Scouts can no longer outflank because they can only do so by virtue of the 'Scouts' USR.

OBEL Doesn't enter the picture because it's a conditional effect that comes into play when they outflank, which they can no longer do.

Your wrong. Dead wrong.

 

For alot of reasons- not the least of wich is that Wolf Scouts AND the IC both outflank, wich is different than actually scouting.

 

But mostly: Read the GW FAQ before you hurt someones brain please.

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...eWolves_Jan2010

[WG Vrox]

Yes, a horribly written and implmented rule. I would love to hear Phil Kelly's original intention when he implemented it into our codex. My guess is it's a left over saga from when TWM and/or FW did have outflanking and was proven OP. He at that point thought it would work with scouts so left it in. Now all it does is make our HQs Lone wolf like.

 

Much like why our Scouts are not able to have shot guns, they were going to be allowed SB instead and but must have been proven OP, however they forgot to add back in the SG. Must have been a sticky note that fell off the wall.

 

Vrox

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Actually...you CAN have a outflanking Thunderwolf. If you look at the Wolf Guard Battle Leader, It shows Thunderwolf Mount as an option as we all know. It also lists Saga of the Hunter as an option and the asterisk says "May only be taken by a model in power armor that does not have a jump pack or Space marine bike"

 

Now by the way it is written that means they cant have runic armor unless im confused about something,But it does give them the option to outflank. I have been considering it as a option to deal with Tank's in the backfield for a while. I just haven't had the oppurtunity to make it happen yet.

[Grey Mage]

Then you read the actual description and see that it says "infantry only" and lose all hope of a TWM'd out flanker.

[Blarmb]

Your wrong. Dead wrong.

Okay....

 

For alot of reasons- not the least of wich is that Wolf Scouts AND the IC both outflank, wich is different than actually scouting.

 

Wolf Scouts cannot just outflank. They have the ability to outflank because of the "Scouts USR". Look at the scouts entry, nowhere do they have the ability to "Outflank". These are the rules Wolf Scouts have:

And They Shall Know No Fear

Acute Senses

Counter-Attack

Infiltrate

Move Through Cover

Scout

Behind Enemy Lines

 

Now obviously if they don't have the "Outflank Ability" they must be getting the capacity to do some from somewhere. Now check out the "Scouts" universal special rule in the main rulebook (Page 86 in the small one).

 

This Rule also confers a special outflank move to units of scouts that are kept in reserve (see page 94).

 

Scouts are being granted the ability to outflank by the "Scouts" rule. That is to say Wolf Scouts ability to outflank is a part of their "Scouts" rule. Therefore if they don't have the rule, they can't outflank because it's what providing it. Now, on USRs in general:

 

The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are

automatically lost by an independent character joining

a unit that does not have the same special rule.

These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an

independent character that does not have the same

special rule

 

None of the Space Wolves units that can take saga of the hunter also have the "Scouts" universal special rule. It does not grant them the "Scouts" universal special rule. When they attempt to join a unit of Wolf Scouts, the Scouts lose the "Scouts" special rule. With that rule stricken from their entry they can no longer outflank, since it is the "Scouts" universal special rule which allows them to do so.

 

 

But mostly: Read the GW FAQ before you hurt someones brain please.

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...eWolves_Jan2010

Content aside the FAQ is Soft Content, not RAW. It has as much relevance to RAW discussion as my own House Rules, which is to say: None. You can take it as evidence of intent (I tend to) but it isn't really relevant to asking how an ability "Really" works.

 

That being said the answer is technically correct.

 

A...)He can only join an outflanking

unit if he has the ability to outflank because of

the Saga of the Hunter.

 

He could certainly join a unit that was outflank with a unit there were any outflanking units he could join, since he has the ability to outflank himself. The problem aren't any outflanking units he can join. Once he joins a unit it becomes incapable of outflanking.

 

 

It's silly, I'll admit. But that's what the rules say. I'd suggest a house ruling it if it really bothers you. I know I intend to bring it up with my group when I start using Scouts.

[Grey Mage]

Yes, there are.

 

You pick up your handy dandy wolf scout unit and say "Im outflanking these."

 

Then, you pick up, say your Wolf Priest, with saga of the Hunter and say "Hell join them now."

 

Works pretty clear and straight forward. The scouts were outflanking- you then declaired that your IC who can also outflank would join them.

 

It works the other way around too- you declare that a unit of hammernators is being joined by shrike, and that your holding on to them for a moment so they can infiltrate, as an example.

 

In either case at the end of the deployment step everything is quite legal.

 

And does your group actually belong to the exclusive club of "doesnt us GW FAQs"?

[Schertenleib]

Now by the way it is written that means they cant have runic armor unless im confused about something

 

 

Runic armor is power armor. It's just very good power armor.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Then you read the actual description and see that it says "infantry only" and lose all hope of a TWM'd out flanker.

Where does it say Infantry only Grey? The Codex I am looking at doesn't say anything about Infantry only...is it in the FAQ somewhere?

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

Where does it say Infantry only Grey? The Codex I am looking at doesn't say anything about Infantry only...is it in the FAQ somewhere?

 

P64. First two words in the description of Saga of the Hunter

[Blarmb]

Yes, there are.

 

You pick up your handy dandy wolf scout unit and say "Im outflanking these."

 

Then, you pick up, say your Wolf Priest, with saga of the Hunter and say "Hell join them now."

 

Clever, but no. That isn't how outflank works. Please turn your attentions to the section on reserves and outflanking all on Page 94. of the smaller book. It outlines a distinct order in which "Preparing Reserves" takes place

 

First he must specify to the opponent if any of his

independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit,

in which case they will be rolled for and will arrive

together, or not in which case they will count as a

separate unit when rolling for reserves.

 

Since you have to declare any ICs that are a unit joining before moving on to other steps, by the time you can declare outflanking the Wold Scouts have already lost the ability to outflank because the don't have the "Scouts" universal special rule. If you don't declare the joining before outflank, the scouts can outflank but you'll be rolling for the IC and the Scouts separately. Maybe they'll come in together, maybe they won't... you could join them as they move onto the board if they do however.

 

 

It works the other way around too- you declare that a unit of hammernators is being joined by shrike, and that your holding on to them for a moment so they can infiltrate, as an example.

 

Shrike is different from and not the same and differently unlike Saga of the Hunter because his ability explicitly new capabilities to the unit he joins. It doesn't matter if they do or don't have a source for it in the first place, since he gives it to them by virtue of being a part of the unit.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Where does it say Infantry only Grey? The Codex I am looking at doesn't say anything about Infantry only...is it in the FAQ somewhere?

 

P64. First two words in the description of Saga of the Hunter

Ahhh...ok that makes more sense...Glad I checked it here before trying it in game.

[Grey Mage]

Yes, there are.

 

You pick up your handy dandy wolf scout unit and say "Im outflanking these."

 

Then, you pick up, say your Wolf Priest, with saga of the Hunter and say "Hell join them now."

 

Clever, but no. That isn't how outflank works. Please turn your attentions to the section on reserves and outflanking all on Page 94. of the smaller book. It outlines a distinct order in which "Preparing Reserves" takes place

 

First he must specify to the opponent if any of his

independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit,

in which case they will be rolled for and will arrive

together, or not in which case they will count as a

separate unit when rolling for reserves.

 

Since you have to declare any ICs that are a unit joining before moving on to other steps, by the time you can declare outflanking the Wold Scouts have already lost the ability to outflank because the don't have the "Scouts" universal special rule. If you don't declare the joining before outflank, the scouts can outflank but you'll be rolling for the IC and the Scouts separately. Maybe they'll come in together, maybe they won't... you could join them as they move onto the board if they do however.

 

 

It works the other way around too- you declare that a unit of hammernators is being joined by shrike, and that your holding on to them for a moment so they can infiltrate, as an example.

 

Shrike is different from and not the same and differently unlike Saga of the Hunter because his ability explicitly new capabilities to the unit he joins. It doesn't matter if they do or don't have a source for it in the first place, since he gives it to them by virtue of being a part of the unit.

No, because in order for him to join the unit, they must already be outflanking, since you declare that when you declare they are in reserves. Then, you declare that he is joining them in outflanking.

[Blarmb]

No, because in order for him to join the unit, they must already be outflanking, since you declare that when you declare they are in reserves. Then, you declare that he is joining them in outflanking.

 

While preparing reserves declaring if independent characters are joined or not is the first step, as outlined by the paragraph I quoted from rulebook. It's only after this step is complete that you move on to other steps of preparing reserves such as declaring deep strike, loading into transports or outflanking. The rules are very clear that

First he must specify to the opponent if any of his

independent characters left in reserve are joining a uni

 

What you're trying to do is akin to rolling out the wounds for an assault cannon, seeing how many rend and then deciding to shoot at a unit with a good armor save and high toughness or not. Yes they're all part of the process of shooting but they have clear order. You can't just rearrange the order whenever you feel like.

[Wispy]

FAQ says an HQ with Saga of the Hunter can outflank with an outflanking unit.

 

 

You are quite a piece of work if this is not good enough for you.

[Grey Mage]

No, because in order for him to join the unit, they must already be outflanking, since you declare that when you declare they are in reserves. Then, you declare that he is joining them in outflanking.

 

While preparing reserves declaring if independent characters are joined or not is the first step, as outlined by the paragraph I quoted from rulebook. It's only after this step is complete that you move on to other steps of preparing reserves such as declaring deep strike, loading into transports or outflanking. The rules are very clear that

First he must specify to the opponent if any of his

independent characters left in reserve are joining a uni

 

What you're trying to do is akin to rolling out the wounds for an assault cannon, seeing how many rend and then deciding to shoot at a unit with a good armor save and high toughness or not. Yes they're all part of the process of shooting but they have clear order. You can't just rearrange the order whenever you feel like.

That Blarmb is a difference in interpretation of the grammar- you are giving first the meaning of time, while in my reading of it Im giving it the order of example- youll note that neither of the other two paragraphs have numbers attached them, and no particular order is given.

 

In fact, the only order so given is two pages before that, where it states:

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their infiltrate special rule). Then they deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75), and finally they move units with the 'scouts' special rule.

 

Wich interestingly enough is the reason why following your course of action keeps shrike, for example, from working- you join ICs to units, not units to ICs- and since the unit doesnt have Infiltrate on its own they could join him becase:

1) a unit without infiltrate must be deployed or in reserves.

2) You cannot infiltrate shrike and then join the unit to him from some limbo youve been hiding them.

 

Now- back to outflank:

During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy. This means they are making a wide sweeping move to come at the foe from an unexpected direction. ....

 

Since you make the declaration during the deployment step, as there is no special "prepare reserves" step, you first declare the scouts, then declare the IC, then declare they are going as one unit.

[Quillen]

Ok the FAQ says,

 

Q. Can an Independent Character that has

joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about

if he has the Saga of the Hunter?

A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking

unit if he has the ability to outflank because of

the Saga of the Hunter.

 

Which when I read it says, No he cannot.

Unless he has Saga of the hunter. Then He can only join an outflanking

unit if he has the ability to outflank because of

the Saga of the Hunter.

 

Call me stupid but this says he can join them if he has Saga of the hunter. Which is what the faq says. Am I wrongÉ