Saga of the Hunter

[Stormshrug]

I am probably beating a dead horse here, but how does saga of the hunter interact with wolf scouts? Saga of the hunter gives the IC the ability to outflank,

 

Nobody knows. Seriously, you will get ten different answers from ten different people. The rules are simply unclear.

 

-Stormshrug

[stinkenheim]

He could certainly join a unit that was outflank with a unit there were any outflanking units he could join, since he has the ability to outflank himself. The problem aren't any outflanking units he can join. Once he joins a unit it becomes incapable of outflanking.

 

It's silly, I'll admit. But that's what the rules say. I'd suggest a house ruling it if it really bothers you. I know I intend to bring it up with my group when I start using Scouts.

 

so the way you play it, if a WP (for example) joined some outflanking scouts then neither unit could deploy.

why, you may ask. well once you have declared that the unit is being kept in reserve to outflank (in this example) you cannot then change that deployment method. Also once an IC has been attached to a unit the only way to detatch them is to finish your movement phase out of coherency, as they are off table that condition cannot be met, ever. so there you go, you have two units which are unable to enter play.

 

now its fairly obvious that GW do not intend that to be the case, hence the FAQ which advises people on particular issues which need addressing.

[Wispy]

I am probably beating a dead horse here, but how does saga of the hunter interact with wolf scouts? Saga of the hunter gives the IC the ability to outflank,

 

Nobody knows. Seriously, you will get ten different answers from ten different people. The rules are simply unclear.

 

-Stormshrug

I think this is pretty apt reasoning for how they work. People have tried to dispute it before, but I've always felt their reasoning was weak.

 

1 - Codex says Saga of the Hunter allows your character to outflank

2 - FAQ says a character with saga of the hunter can join another outflanking unit and outflank with them

 

Therefore, a HQ with Saga of the Hunter can outflank with a squad of Wolf Scouts when they outflank

 

3 - When a wolf scout unit outflanks, they use Behind Enemy lines which provides different results on the outflank roll. However they are still outflanking - this is not a new special rule, rather something that modifies something that happens everytime they use another special rule.

Therefore, when the character joins them, and they outflank together... Whoah, holy crap, the scouts are outflanking, so therefore, the Behind Enemy Lines Rule kicks in.

 

 

 

The logic being is they are both doing the same thing: outflanking. The scouts behind enemy lines rule modifies the results of the outflank rule, not grant a specialized outflank rule the character can't use. There is nothing to suggest that this modification can't happen.

[Grimtooth]

I am probably beating a dead horse here, but how does saga of the hunter interact with wolf scouts? Saga of the hunter gives the IC the ability to outflank,

 

Nobody knows. Seriously, you will get ten different answers from ten different people. The rules are simply unclear.

 

-Stormshrug

I think this is pretty apt reasoning for how they work. People have tried to dispute it before, but I've always felt their reasoning was weak.

 

1 - Codex says Saga of the Hunter allows your character to outflank

2 - FAQ says a character with saga of the hunter can join another outflanking unit and outflank with them

 

Therefore, a HQ with Saga of the Hunter can outflank with a squad of Wolf Scouts when they outflank

 

3 - When a wolf scout unit outflanks, they use Behind Enemy lines which provides different results on the outflank roll. However they are still outflanking - this is not a new special rule, rather something that happens when the scouts outflank.

 

Therefore, when the character joins them, and they outflank, they Behind Enemy Lines Rule is still used.

 

The logic being is they are both doing the same thing: outflanking. The scouts special rule modifies the results of the outflank. There is nothing to suggest that this modification can't happen, as by virtue of the FAQ, they can outflank together.

 

Nice points, but you could also just point to the OBEL rule in the codex where it says,

 

If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of it ability to outflank.....

 

When an IC joins the Wolf Scouts, he becomes part of that unit with the only exception being in close combat where he fights as a unit of his own.

[Grimtooth]

I am probably beating a dead horse here, but how does saga of the hunter interact with wolf scouts? Saga of the hunter gives the IC the ability to outflank,

 

You give an IC Saga of The Hunter and it grants him the ability to outflank.

You attach him to a pack of Wolf Scouts.

The Wolf Scouts now have an IC attached without the 'Scouts' USR.

The Wolf Scouts lose the 'Scouts' special rule.

The Wolf Scouts can no longer outflank because they can only do so by virtue of the 'Scouts' USR.

OBEL Doesn't enter the picture because it's a conditional effect that comes into play when they outflank, which they can no longer do.

 

The Wolf Scouts only lose the Scout move, not the outflank.

 

Infiltrate confers outflank as well. The example given in the Special Rules section of page 48 explains that the unit with the "infiltrate" special rule cannot infiltrate. It says nothing about losing the outflank as well.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

So with Saga of the Hunter the unit and independent character can outflank, but cannot infiltrate.

 

So that Wolf Guard Battle Leader (frost blade and storm shield) with two wolves (wargear) can join a ten man scout squad (meltagun and two power weapons) and Wolf Guard pack leader (power fist) and turn up right behind the enemy?

 

That's a serious chunk of mayhem to drop in your opponent's lap.

[Stormshrug]

So with Saga of the Hunter the unit and independent character can outflank, but cannot infiltrate.

 

So that Wolf Guard Battle Leader (frost blade and storm shield) with two wolves (wargear) can join a ten man scout squad (meltagun and two power weapons) and Wolf Guard pack leader (power fist) and turn up right behind the enemy?

 

That's a serious chunk of mayhem to drop in your opponent's lap.

 

Personally, I have him take Frost Blade and Plasma Pistol, since he can't get EW. With the PP, he'll average around an extra wound a turn, and it's nice for softening up tough targets.

 

-Stormshrug

[Wispy]

I am probably beating a dead horse here, but how does saga of the hunter interact with wolf scouts? Saga of the hunter gives the IC the ability to outflank,

 

Nobody knows. Seriously, you will get ten different answers from ten different people. The rules are simply unclear.

 

-Stormshrug

I think this is pretty apt reasoning for how they work. People have tried to dispute it before, but I've always felt their reasoning was weak.

 

1 - Codex says Saga of the Hunter allows your character to outflank

2 - FAQ says a character with saga of the hunter can join another outflanking unit and outflank with them

 

Therefore, a HQ with Saga of the Hunter can outflank with a squad of Wolf Scouts when they outflank

 

3 - When a wolf scout unit outflanks, they use Behind Enemy lines which provides different results on the outflank roll. However they are still outflanking - this is not a new special rule, rather something that happens when the scouts outflank.

 

Therefore, when the character joins them, and they outflank, they Behind Enemy Lines Rule is still used.

 

The logic being is they are both doing the same thing: outflanking. The scouts special rule modifies the results of the outflank. There is nothing to suggest that this modification can't happen, as by virtue of the FAQ, they can outflank together.

 

Nice points, but you could also just point to the OBEL rule in the codex where it says,

 

If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of it ability to outflank.....

 

When an IC joins the Wolf Scouts, he becomes part of that unit with the only exception being in close combat where he fights as a unit of his own.

 

Caching!

 

I knew I was missing something from the last time we all discussed this. Yes - the character is certainly joined the Wolf Scouts unit at this point, and thus they would still OBEL.

[Quillen]

So to sum up.

 

A Wolf Lord with Saga of the hunter hooks up with some Scouts and then they all can outflank, but not Infiltrate.

[Grimtooth]

So to sum up.

 

A Wolf Lord with Saga of the hunter hooks up with some Scouts and then they all can outflank, but not Infiltrate.

 

They also cannot make the free pre-game Scout move. But yes, they can outflank.

[TiguriusX]

I am probably beating a dead horse here, but how does saga of the hunter interact with wolf scouts? Saga of the hunter gives the IC the ability to outflank,

 

Nobody knows. Seriously, you will get ten different answers from ten different people. The rules are simply unclear.

 

-Stormshrug

I think this is pretty apt reasoning for how they work. People have tried to dispute it before, but I've always felt their reasoning was weak.

 

1 - Codex says Saga of the Hunter allows your character to outflank

2 - FAQ says a character with saga of the hunter can join another outflanking unit and outflank with them

 

Therefore, a HQ with Saga of the Hunter can outflank with a squad of Wolf Scouts when they outflank

 

3 - When a wolf scout unit outflanks, they use Behind Enemy lines which provides different results on the outflank roll. However they are still outflanking - this is not a new special rule, rather something that happens when the scouts outflank.

 

Therefore, when the character joins them, and they outflank, they Behind Enemy Lines Rule is still used.

 

The logic being is they are both doing the same thing: outflanking. The scouts special rule modifies the results of the outflank. There is nothing to suggest that this modification can't happen, as by virtue of the FAQ, they can outflank together.

 

Nice points, but you could also just point to the OBEL rule in the codex where it says,

 

If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of it ability to outflank.....

 

When an IC joins the Wolf Scouts, he becomes part of that unit with the only exception being in close combat where he fights as a unit of his own.

 

Caching!

 

I knew I was missing something from the last time we all discussed this. Yes - the character is certainly joined the Wolf Scouts unit at this point, and thus they would still OBEL.

 

I'm not sure that is enough to avoid the IC rules on p.48

Special Rules

When an independent character joins a unit, it might

have different special rules from those of the unit.

Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the ‘stubborn’

special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred

upon the character, and the character’s special rules

are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases

though, the independent character or the unit may

lose their special rules as a result of the character

joining the unit. For example, if an independent

character without the ‘infiltrate’ special rule joins a

unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit

cannot infiltrate (see the Universal Special Rules

section for more details).

OBEL is a scout unit special *rule*. RAW it goes POOF when the IC joins and they should revert to the default outflank rules

[WeWillBuryYou]

im curious why they didnt just make saga of the hunter confer OBEL as well to avoid confusion

[Stormshrug]

So to sum up.

 

A Wolf Lord with Saga of the hunter hooks up with some Scouts and then they all can outflank, but not Infiltrate.

 

 

Saga of the Hunter is limited to the WGBL and Wolf Priest, though, sadly.

 

-Stormshrug

[Grimtooth]

Tig, OBEL is not a USR. In the example given, they use a USR.

Besides that, both the Wolf Scouts and the IC would have the outflank rule. That is the only requirement for the Wolf Scout UNIT to use OBEL.

[TiguriusX]

Tig, OBEL is not a USR. In the example given, they use a USR.

Besides that, both the Wolf Scouts and the IC would have the outflank rule. That is the only requirement for the Wolf Scout UNIT to use OBEL.

 

 

The IC rule isn't limited to USR. It says "special" rules.

 

OBEL is listed as a "special" rule for scouts. Check p. 27 of SW codex

[Grimtooth]

Tig, OBEL is not a USR. In the example given, they use a USR.

Besides that, both the Wolf Scouts and the IC would have the outflank rule. That is the only requirement for the Wolf Scout UNIT to use OBEL.

 

 

The IC rule isn't limited to USR. It says "special" rules.

 

OBEL is listed as a "special" rule for scouts. Check p. 27 of SW codex

 

The IC rule isn't specific about what special rules it applies but uses a USR as its only example which is why I mentioned it.

 

The prereq for OBEL is outflank which a IC with SotH is able to do.

 

Now If you read the entry for OBEL it does not say when Wolf Scouts use outflank it says when the Wolf Scout unit.

 

So when an IC becomes part of the Wolf Scout unit and utilizes outflank, then OBEL kicks in.

 

In otherwords, the IC having outflank and becoming part of the Wolf Scout unit allows him to OBEL legally.

[TiguriusX]

Tig, OBEL is not a USR. In the example given, they use a USR.

Besides that, both the Wolf Scouts and the IC would have the outflank rule. That is the only requirement for the Wolf Scout UNIT to use OBEL.

 

 

The IC rule isn't limited to USR. It says "special" rules.

 

OBEL is listed as a "special" rule for scouts. Check p. 27 of SW codex

 

The IC rule isn't specific about what special rules it applies but uses a USR as its only example which is why I mentioned it.

 

The prereq for OBEL is outflank which a IC with SotH is able to do.

 

Now If you read the entry for OBEL it does not say when Wolf Scouts use outflank it says when the Wolf Scout unit.

 

So when an IC becomes part of the Wolf Scout unit and utilizes outflank, then OBEL kicks in.

 

In otherwords, the IC having outflank and becoming part of the Wolf Scout unit allows him to OBEL legally.

 

The IC rule isn't specific because it applies to all special rules. If it was limited to USRs it would say USRs. The only exemption in the IC rule is if the special rule itself says it gets conferred just like stubborn

 

This isn't a definition problem because OBEL is a "special rule" in the Scout profile.

 

Look at p.88 of the SW codex and explain to me how OBEL is not a "special rule"

[Schertenleib]

Tig, OBEL is not a USR. In the example given, they use a USR.

Besides that, both the Wolf Scouts and the IC would have the outflank rule. That is the only requirement for the Wolf Scout UNIT to use OBEL.

 

 

The IC rule isn't limited to USR. It says "special" rules.

 

OBEL is listed as a "special" rule for scouts. Check p. 27 of SW codex

 

The IC rule isn't specific about what special rules it applies but uses a USR as its only example which is why I mentioned it.

 

The prereq for OBEL is outflank which a IC with SotH is able to do.

 

Now If you read the entry for OBEL it does not say when Wolf Scouts use outflank it says when the Wolf Scout unit.

 

So when an IC becomes part of the Wolf Scout unit and utilizes outflank, then OBEL kicks in.

 

In otherwords, the IC having outflank and becoming part of the Wolf Scout unit allows him to OBEL legally.

 

The IC rule isn't specific because it applies to all special rules. If it was limited to USRs it would say USRs. The only exemption in the IC rule is if the special rule itself says it gets conferred just like stubborn

 

This isn't a definition problem because OBEL is a "special rule" in the Scout profile.

 

Look at p.88 of the SW codex and explain to me how OBEL is not a "special rule"

 

So to keep up with this line of thinking....

Long Fangs have the "special rule" that allows them to split their shots between two targets. So if an IC (say a Rune Priest) joins the Long Fangs they can no longer shoot at two separate targets?

 

We all know that that is not true. GW says so. So what other argument do you have?

[Grimtooth]

Tig, OBEL is not a USR. In the example given, they use a USR.

Besides that, both the Wolf Scouts and the IC would have the outflank rule. That is the only requirement for the Wolf Scout UNIT to use OBEL.

 

 

The IC rule isn't limited to USR. It says "special" rules.

 

OBEL is listed as a "special" rule for scouts. Check p. 27 of SW codex

 

The IC rule isn't specific about what special rules it applies but uses a USR as its only example which is why I mentioned it.

 

The prereq for OBEL is outflank which a IC with SotH is able to do.

 

Now If you read the entry for OBEL it does not say when Wolf Scouts use outflank it says when the Wolf Scout unit.

 

So when an IC becomes part of the Wolf Scout unit and utilizes outflank, then OBEL kicks in.

 

In otherwords, the IC having outflank and becoming part of the Wolf Scout unit allows him to OBEL legally.

 

The IC rule isn't specific because it applies to all special rules. If it was limited to USRs it would say USRs. The only exemption in the IC rule is if the special rule itself says it gets conferred just like stubborn

 

This isn't a definition problem because OBEL is a "special rule" in the Scout profile.

 

Look at p.88 of the SW codex and explain to me how OBEL is not a "special rule"

 

The Scout USR confers outflank, which the Wolf Scout unit does via OBEL.

 

Again, the IC joins the Wolf Scout unit. The unit outflanks via OBEL because the IC and the unit both have outflank. That is the qualifier for the UNIT to be able to OBEL.

 

A Wolf Scout unit's OBEL ability is only allowed by them being confered the ability to outflank. In the case of the Wolf Scouts this is by the Scout USR and/or the Infiltrate USR. In the case of the IC, he needs SotH and be part of the Wolf Scout unit.

[Wispy]

There's all sort of inconsistencies with IC joining units with special rules that I'm not buying TiguriusX's logic.

 

A non-fearless IC becomes fearless when joining a fearless unit. A non-infiltrating IC loses infiltrate for the whole unit.

 

It is not consistent and it is not global. It's case by case.

 

 

 

In the case of the Wolf Scouts, the whole unit can do it as long as the whole unit has outflank and is outflanking.

[Stormshrug]

So to keep up with this line of thinking....

Long Fangs have the "special rule" that allows them to split their shots between two targets. So if an IC (say a Rune Priest) joins the Long Fangs they can no longer shoot at two separate targets?

 

We all know that that is not true. GW says so. So what other argument do you have?

 

 

I feel like this is actually the most compelling argument I've heard yet.

 

-Stormshrug

[Quillen]

READ THE FREAKING FAQ!!!!

 

It says he can and run with them if he has Saga of the hunter. So he can. And that is that. Freaking lock the thread before someone who can not read the Faq comes in here and posts more lies.

[Grimtooth]

READ THE FREAKING FAQ!!!!

 

It says he can and run with them if he has Saga of the hunter. So he can. And that is that. Freaking lock the thread before someone who can not read the Faq comes in here and posts more lies.

 

Chill Quil. Hahahaha! But really Tig is probably just devils advocating again.

[TiguriusX]

READ THE FREAKING FAQ!!!!

 

It says he can and run with them if he has Saga of the hunter. So he can. And that is that. Freaking lock the thread before someone who can not read the Faq comes in here and posts more lies.

 

Chill Quil. Hahahaha! But really Tig is probably just devils advocating again.

 

 

Brother Ramses OBEL is a rule that actually concerns me without playing DA. OBEL is such a unique rule due to the fact that it simply modifies another rule. I want it to work but I'm honestly not sure. That is why I posted to be cautious.

 

I don't want to derail this thread or get it locked with a similar back and forth we have going in the Devil's Advocate thread (this might make a good topic for part 2 if Geowolf gets his way haha).

 

I will give some quick responses to people who asked but I probably won't continue the discussion beyond that to avoid hijacking this thread

 

-Brother Ramses

I am not sure if OBEL is allowed to kick in because based on the IC rules the Wolf Scouts +IC (as the new unit) would no longer have the OBEL rule. Using your same argument an IC without stealth would gain the benefits when joining a stealth unit because the rule says "unit".

 

-Schertenleib

You are 100% correct in your analysis of the LF losing "fire control" if an IC joins based on the IC rule. That is probably why that exact question was asked in a FAQ. The FAQ gave an exception to the LFs. Arguing that the LF rule also allows us to ignore every other rule is a slippery slope (logical fallacy. ABC being true doesn't mean XYZ are true).

 

-Wispy

A non-fearless IC becomes fearless because the fearless USR says so. It provides an exception and actually follows the IC rule 100% without inconsistency. The IC rule says "unless specified in the rule itself" and both stubborn and fearless do just that.

 

-Quillen

The FAQ is dealing with outflank. I wasn't aware of this until it was presented in an argument but there is no outflank USR. It is a deployment rule on p.94 only. A unit gains the ability to outflank from the scout USR or infiltrate USR. Based on the IC rule the wolf scouts would lose outflank because Saga of the Hunter doesn't include scout or infiltrate. The FAQ fixes that problem but failed to clear up OBEL.

 

 

Apologies to Commander Alexander for this temporary thread hijack. I am bailing out now

[Grey Mage]

I feel, as it moifies how outflank works, that it should work just fine with an attached character with SotH.

 

However, just because it should doesnt mean it does so its something you should talk to your play group about.