Heavily mechanized armies

[Mezkh]

I'm still thinking over what way to take my Blood Angels, and while the jump pack rules we get are great, I really like how the new fast variants of almost everything play, and the option of Baals Preds and dedicated Land Raiders really opens up the Mech army options.

 

Anyone been having success with heavy mech? What ratio of Troops in Rhinos/Razorbacks to Predators works for you? Any must have choices in your army? Do you use any Pods?

 

I came up with a 1750 list that contained 4 Pred variants, a Landraider, a Whirlwind, and 2 Rhino mounted squads, with Seth+Assault squad in the LR, but it felt a little light in bodies, so I'd be interested in what fellow BA players are doing with non Jumppack / deepstriking armies.

[grazer]

I've yet to play with the new codex, but a lot of lists I've been reading have four or more 5 man assault squads in razorbacks (with an attached priest/libby/reclusiarch here and there for oomph), as well as 2+ baals and then some heavy support in the form of either predators or vindis.

 

Not sure how it performs, but it seems to me that people are going all or nothing with mech. I've been trying to come up with a well rounded list of jumpers and mechanized but haven't made much headway just yet.

[wookielips]

in my heavy lists, ive ran 2 LR's, 4+ RBs, a SR, a furi+DC dread and a techmarine+3 servitors to keep it all moving. did pretty well. im still too new to 40k to run it on the table pretty effectively, but its pretty fun to play. opponents have a terrible time dealing with all that armor, but 5 man RAS aren't worth a lot. too easy to kill. don't sink a lot of points into the small squads.

[JamesI]

I've never played heavy mech being a jump pack enthusiast.

 

But I have played against BA mech. At 1850, my opponent ran something like this (it is an estimate, so I may put in too many or too few units, I've played the list multiple times but at a different point level each time)

 

Librarian, shield of Sanguinius, sword of sanguinius (of course, this requires that you accept shield works on vehicles to be useful)

2 Furiosos, blood talons, magna grapples. I think drop pods were added later

Sanguinary Priest, power weapon

4 5 man assault squads, razorbacks with assault cannons

3 Baals, assault cannons, heavy botlers

2 regular preds, autocannons, lascannons

 

The first time I faced it, it ripped me apart.

[Mezkh]

That does look nasty. See I'm not too sure about putting a single Land Raider in, as it seems like it's giving your opponent something to focus his best 'kills any tank' unit on, and his other stuff blows up your Rhinos anyway. I've tried to come up with a 'well rounded' list as well, but it hasn't really been working, so looking at almost all mech.

 

Yeah the Librarian shield thing isn't allowed at the local tournaments, so I'm less sure on him as an HQ choice given vehicles are a bit of a psychic power shield themselves.

[JamesI]

That does look nasty. See I'm not too sure about putting a single Land Raider in, as it seems like it's giving your opponent something to focus his best 'kills any tank' unit on, and his other stuff blows up your Rhinos anyway. I've tried to come up with a 'well rounded' list as well, but it hasn't really been working, so looking at almost all mech.

 

Yeah the Librarian shield thing isn't allowed at the local tournaments, so I'm less sure on him as an HQ choice given vehicles are a bit of a psychic power shield themselves.

If your local area disallows shield on vehicles then the Librarian should be set up with Blood Lance or something similiar (or dropped for a reclusiarch or perhaps Tycho or Seth)

[Rizara]

Hey i have played 3 games so far using a list that includes 2 LRredeemers, 2 Baal's, 1 Furiso Dread, and 2 Razorbacks. My troop squads are 2 full 10 man RAS, 1 5 strong RAS, and 1 5 Strong DC. I also included 3 priests and a cheap captain. I have won 3 games out of the 3 i have played, and having 5 twin linked assault cannons and 2 multi meltas seems to work well against most armor(minus other LRs as those AV14 are a bit trickier to penetrate. I have played against grey knights, chaos marines and vanilla marines and have done rather well, tho i have recently tweaked my list to an alternate mech list.

 

The reasons for this is the two redeemers take alot of firepower shots which is great, but i seem to lack real anti tank punch cause my luck with the multimeltas has just been craptastic. My new mech list that hasn't been tried yet ends up dropping the two 10 man squads down to smaller 5 mans, dropping the LRs for razorbacks with Ass.cans, and swapping the razorback of the DC to a rhino and upping the squad from 5 to 8 strong. I also swapped the captain to a reclusiarch and picked up a DC dread with talons, and two Preds with autocannon/Lascannon sponsons. Overall i still ended up keeping the 5 assault cannons and i have more tanks on the board. I also have 4 preds that the enemy has to contend with, plus 3 razorbacks, a rhino, and 2 dreads. The entire force is now really fast, mobile, lots of guns to bare, but my assault punch still seems to lack a little. I intend to pair up assault squads into two pairs, one pair of two 5 mans with priests each as one strike team, and a 5 man RAS with a combined punch of the chaplain/DC. Also the two dreads as a 3rd assault force gives me some deadly punch when i need to clear objectives or wipe out stuff in melee. I also have lots of mobile firepower to mow down stuff, and in the process i just have to remember to stay focused on the objectives and target priorities. That being i need to take out the deadliest stuff to my force first like vindicators and ordance tanks, plus other anti tank stuff. After the stuff that will slow or cripple my armor is out, i then have to remember if its kill points of objectives. If objective taking is in order, i focus less on taking hte objectives and more on removing my opponents troops off the board by focusing fire on those. If kill points i just focus fire on the same unit till its gone and work up kill points as fast as i can without losing my force.

 

So far out of the 3 games i have played, 2 have been objective oriented and removing my enemies troops is a sure fire way to win those, because if they have no troops that can go for the objective, and i keep lots of fire around open objectives, and protect at least one objective for myself to where they can't win, then i tend to win by only holding one objective. its worked out well so far and hopefully i can get a game in next week to try out my new alternative mech list.

I also like the mech list cause in the past, and the one game i used an assault squad, i tend to do poorly with jump pack units. They spend so much time hoping from cover to cover by the time they get there they get maybe one good round, and a few lackluster pile ins and don't really earn there points back. Not to mention because of how small cover seems to be these days, they also tend to suffer from blast/ordance weapons because they become nice tightly packed units. From my experiences i tend to do better with transports and drop pod units as they get where they need to faster, and even on foot the assault units close almost as fast cause the short ranged pistols means i spend lots of time running more if no ride is present.

[Dingareth]

Fast tanks are the only reason I play Blood Angels, they've finally made Marine MBTs into something resembling a MBT. So 3 Furiosos, 4 Razorbacks, 2 Baals, a Storm Raven, and 2 Predators are a go! Still haven't lost with the army, it been tearing Mech Guard a new one.

 

Just took first in a 1250 per person team tourney yesterday, was running a Strom Raven, Furioso, 2 Asscannon Razorbacks, and 2 shooty Baals.

[SamaNagol]

Why in the wide world of sports would 'Shield' not work on vehicles? In which realm of reality is a vehicle not a unit?

[Mezkh]

So including Furiosos Dreads is the way to go? I was figuring you could make a really nasty alpha strike template list with some podding furiosos wielding frag cannons, some scouting baals, and the stormraven.

 

Objectives are a bit of a worry, I hate 5 mans squads personally and have been trying to make tacticals in rhinos work. But your tactics seem sound Midnight Angel.

 

 

Why in the wide world of sports would 'Shield' not work on vehicles? In which realm of reality is a vehicle not a unit?

 

Of course they are units.

Short version: They can't use cover if they aren't also obscured. Long version, there's a thread somewhere in rules that can be dug up. But this isn't really the thread for that discussion. If your opponent's are fine with it, more power to the Blood Angels! I like Fear of the Darkness and a Close combat power on my libby myself anyway :)

[Dingareth]

So including Furiosos Dreads is the way to go? I was figuring you could make a really nasty alpha strike template list with some podding furiosos wielding frag cannons, some scouting baals, and the stormraven.

 

Objectives are a bit of a worry, I hate 5 mans squads personally and have been trying to make tacticals in rhinos work. But your tactics seem sound Midnight Angel.

 

If you need 10 man squads, then 10 Assault Marines with 2 Meltas in a Rhino is the way to go. That said, I've found 5 man squads to be perfect, as long as they have a transport. If they're shooting at your Razorbacks, then the Preds and Dreads can go to work on them. FnP, and even Fearless if a squad Thirsts really helps to keep 5 man squads around.

[SamaNagol]

Why in the wide world of sports would 'Shield' not work on vehicles? In which realm of reality is a vehicle not a unit?

 

Of course they are units.

Short version: They can't use cover if they aren't also obscured. Long version, there's a thread somewhere in rules that can be dug up. But this isn't really the thread for that discussion. If your opponent's are fine with it, more power to the Blood Angels! I like Fear of the Darkness and a Close combat power on my libby myself anyway :)

 

Could you find it for me so i can have a good laugh at it.

[JamesI]

Discussion of the shield/vehicles issue should go here:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...ield+sanguinius

[SamaNagol]

Yeh I just found it about 10 minutes ago. The premise of only being able to ever take a cover save if you are obscured over-riding a Codex rule granting you a cover save is hilarious.

[Ranwulf]

I've never played heavy mech being a jump pack enthusiast.

 

But I have played against BA mech. At 1850, my opponent ran something like this (it is an estimate, so I may put in too many or too few units, I've played the list multiple times but at a different point level each time)

 

Librarian, shield of Sanguinius, sword of sanguinius (of course, this requires that you accept shield works on vehicles to be useful)

2 Furiosos, blood talons, magna grapples. I think drop pods were added later

Sanguinary Priest, power weapon

4 5 man assault squads, razorbacks with assault cannons

3 Baals, assault cannons, heavy botlers

2 regular preds, autocannons, lascannons

 

The first time I faced it, it ripped me apart.

 

Huh, James, how did the 5 Man Assault Squads with Razorbacks worked?

[SamaNagol]

They work fine if they stay in tact. You generally will be shooting everything with numerous Assault Cannon and using the Furiosos as your Close Combatants.

 

You keep the small RAS inside the transports for as long as possible.

[JamesI]

I've never played heavy mech being a jump pack enthusiast.

 

But I have played against BA mech. At 1850, my opponent ran something like this (it is an estimate, so I may put in too many or too few units, I've played the list multiple times but at a different point level each time)

 

Librarian, shield of Sanguinius, sword of sanguinius (of course, this requires that you accept shield works on vehicles to be useful)

2 Furiosos, blood talons, magna grapples. I think drop pods were added later

Sanguinary Priest, power weapon

4 5 man assault squads, razorbacks with assault cannons

3 Baals, assault cannons, heavy botlers

2 regular preds, autocannons, lascannons

 

The first time I faced it, it ripped me apart.

 

Huh, James, how did the 5 Man Assault Squads with Razorbacks worked?

Honestly, the entire list focuses around the furiosos. If they get to combat, they roll the enemy up and that's it. If they fail, the list falls apart.

 

Having 4 or 5 5 man squads in't bad (though I prefer larger squads). Ok for claiming and if you keep them near enough each other than can do ok in most fights. Obviously not against a really massivley assautly force.

 

The amount of shooting the lsit puts out makes up for the fact that in combat it is really reliant on those dreads.

[Bishoujo]

I've been having some luck with my 1850 list. Don't know individual points off the top of my head and I've got no codex/army builder at work. But let me try and remember the general list:

 

I've got a Librarian with Blood Lance and Sword of Sanguinas, running with a 5 man honor guard with mixed wargear. I think there is 1 pair of lightning claws, one power fist, one power sword w/ plasma pistol, one power sword with chapter banner, and the novitiate with chainsword / bolt pistol. All riding in a razorback with a twin-linked heavy flamer.

 

I'm running 3 squads of 5 man assault marines. Sergeant with a power fist, melta gun and 3 regular guys. No jump packs - in a razorback with twin-linked assault cannon.

 

Then I've got 3 baal predators with twin-linked assault cannons and heavy bolter sponsons.

 

Finally there are 2 predators with twin-linked lascannons and lascannon sponsons.

 

Should come out to 1850. The fully mech list has been working for me, and having six twin-linked assault cannons with the ability to shoot after moving 12" is dirty. Putting the HQ in the heavy flamer razorback has worked well for me. While the guys inside are more dangerous than my other razorback's passengers - the transport itself is the least dangerous thing on the table with all of those lascannons and assault cannons everywhere. So, I usually get lucky with threat priority.

 

I dunno, just what I've been running lately.

[voi shet magir]

I really like how the new fast variants of almost everything play

 

Fast transports are like the bane of my existence. Do you know how many sergeants could get powerfists if not for all those Lucifer patterns? like, three, but still, it would make Sternguard a lot more practical.

 

What ratio of Troops in Rhinos/Razorbacks to Predators works for you?

 

Jump Infantry - seriously. Assault Cannon Razorspam are nice, but they have problems with some targets, and take points away from more important stuff. Jump troops are great with armor lists because they do not cause traffic jams, which is an enormous hazard when you have six rhinos all going to the same place, even if none of them gets wrecked. They benefit from the tanks by hiding behind them, and protect armor by jamming up infantry. In assault cannon lists, they can also melt high av things that are not afraid of short-ranged rending shots - especially due to Descent of Angels. That is a basic economic aversion to over-specialization.

 

Baals are obviously the centre of fast-tank BA, and they should get most of the points you put toward Assault Cannons. That said, template attacks are very important for flushing cheap guys in cover who are not impressed by your cannons. If you have three, the last baal should have a flamestorm for killing devs (if you ever see them) before they kill you.

 

You need need need ranged shooting, try a rifleman or lascannon dread, probably both.

 

I came up with a 1750 list that contained 4 Pred variants, a Landraider, a Whirlwind, and 2 Rhino mounted squads, with Seth+Assault squad in the LR, but it felt a little light in bodies, so I'd be interested in what fellow BA players are doing with non Jumppack / deepstriking armies.

 

I thought you were wary of LR. Is there nothing else to do with them than add automatic heavy assault unit?

 

Uh, the point is to have fewer bodies, not more. With tanks, you are fighting half the enemy's armament; why would you want more bodies just for the sake of fighting all of it? You need the complementary abilities of models that have toughness values, like interceptor/melta-caddying jump troops, but you want to minimize the vulnerabilities they bring.

 

The counter-intuitive solution is Astorath. JP characters provide hittiness that doesn't need to be delivered by an eggs-in-one-basket Land Raider. He can safely join a small unit of DC, because they will be hugging transport-cover, which blind them to rage distractions. With Astorath's chaplain re-rolls and his escorts' weapon options, they can be cheapish and have a small footprint that hides well behind transports. The combo is spendy, but does not need a spendy transport, so there may be some savings. Astorath and four JP Death Co. with Hammer and PW - 405

 

Land Raiders are still good, they just shouldn't be so high-profile, and you do not want to be afraid of them getting immobilized on turn one. So, mount the second troops unit in one. 6 DC with hammer and Godhammer LR - 400 This unit is actually fairly cheap - it costs the same as a minimum assault squad with flamer, Land Raider and a naked priest - awesome. Due to PotMS, the sponsons can stop two transports in a turn. It then can deliver an extremely powerful counter-charge unit that only costs 150 points, which is better than termies+character, or whatever it is people put at the center of Vulkan lists et al.

 

Razorbacks are nice, but not enough to use at the exclusion of all else. Still, you want scoring troops. Five Assault Marines with flamer, lightning claw, and upgunned-razorback - 175 Lascannons usually, to hang back and shoot, claim an objective, and flame the heck out of people trying to contest. The claws are there mostly due to leftover points, but could just as easily go toward converting one of the LR DC to part of Astorath's escort. Still, if Shadow of the Primarch works out for them, they might actually assault something.

 

Ten RAS with PF and dual meltaguns - 235 should almost always DS, otherwise it would be cheaper and better to use bikers.

 

Baal - xpoints Whatever. They are the whole point of the list, but I do not care about them at all. Can come with either turret.

 

Baal - flamer sponsons - 140 comes with the opposite turret as above. I still do not care.

 

Vindicator - xpoints this would be useful for killing things that come out of land raiders, if the list had any meanin'ful melta in it. It settles for killing absolutely everything else, costly junk heap that it is.

 

Dreadnought with lascannons - 135 kills transports, kind-of benefits from blood rage.

 

So that is what I think of 1750. It has way more units than your Seth&co, but way fewer models, so take it as you like.

[Theikos]

I'd be interested in what fellow BA players are doing with non Jumppack / deepstriking armies.

 

A little late to the thread, but here is what I've been running lately. I'm undefeated in my metagame which includes Eldar, Chaos, Templar, IG and Dark Angels.

 

1500 pts

 

Mephiston

 

RAS(10) - Rhino, double melta, fist

RAS(8) - Rhino, melta, sword

RAS(5) - Razorback, TL Lascannon

 

FDN - Blood talons, EA, drop pod

SP - Sword

 

BP - FSC

BP - AC

 

Vindicator

 

 

All my mech has dozer blades since we play with a decent amount of difficult terrain, and the blades rock. I really enjoy the style of saturating AV13 with Mephiston... He has pretty much always gotten to smash faces with everyone.

 

At 2000 I add in another Razorback Lascannon team, a Stormraven for the dreadnought and a second SP for the rear line

 

 

Hope this is helpful,

 

Theikos

[SamaNagol]

I'm finding the fast vehicles very useful.

 

Predators that can move 6 and still fire everything. Vindicators zooming 12" and dropping pie plates on things the opponent didn't think were targets.

 

More importantly, with the 12" movement you can really feint and counter the opponent. Look like you are going at one target then reploy your force overwhelmingly at another point before they can react.

 

And moving my Death Company 18" in their transport is useful!

[TheAmbit]

At 1250 I run

Meph

Sang. Priest

5 RAS, psword, melta rhino

5 RAS, psword, melta rhino

5 RAS, psword, flamer, razorback w/ TL Hflamer

Baal Pred w/ flamestorm

Baal Pred w/ hbolters and ass cannon

Pred w/ autocannon and las sponsons

Pred w/ autocannon and las sponsons

 

I've won the last four games against separate opponents (IG, SM, CSM, and Orks) and tabled the IG and SM guy by turn 4.

 

Heavy vehicle lists are GREAT for BA, especially at lower point games if you play those. Just run meph up hidden behind the rhino wall and blast away with everything else.

[whitewolfmxc]

Blood lance for the SPAMMMMMMMMM XD

 

also cheap dreds with MM and drop pods lol

[Zeller]

I've been running 2 tacticals in rhinos, a predator destructor, and jump troops, bikes, and speeders. I haven't played in a serious environment though. It's all been casual.

 

I plan to include my new Baal to the list and my commander's razorback if I can fit the points.

 

I love tanks but it's still nice to have some fast infantry ready to assault at a moments notice.