vs. Dante/Blood Angels

[kittenofdeath]

I just throw 2 I5 characters at Dante, he can't reduce the stats on both. Add in Wolf Priest in the mix its going to be a long night for Dante. My view, leave the named characters at home and pull out the generic HQ units that can still work over Dante.

 

1v1 Thunderwolf with runic armor and a storm sheild/thunderhammer combo promises to give Dante some trouble though.

 

Why I5? Dante is I6.

 

Dante isnt that hard to kill outside of Clash of Heros, in it that mask is a killer, but out of it, just kill him with something else, one thunderwolf with th/ss could probably do it.

 

I'm guessing Dante has 4 attacks base, 1 for pistol. lets say he gets 4 out of 5 hits, he still needs to roll 5's to wound the thunderwolf, lets be nice and call it 2 wounds, you're bound to save at least one. You attack back, 4 attacks, 2 hits and probably 2 wounds, since he only has a 4++ theres now a 50/50 chance of him being instagibbed.

[NealSmith]

I just throw 2 I5 characters at Dante, he can't reduce the stats on both. Add in Wolf Priest in the mix its going to be a long night for Dante. My view, leave the named characters at home and pull out the generic HQ units that can still work over Dante.

 

1v1 Thunderwolf with runic armor and a storm sheild/thunderhammer combo promises to give Dante some trouble though.

 

In Clash of Heroes you can only have one named character. You can play the scenario with just generic ICs, but you still have to designate one of them as "the man".

[Whitefireinferno]

Yeah In which you feed their IC things while your unkillable SC cant die and slaughters everything in his way works both ways but yeah.

 

Also to whoever said BA players should cross out part of Dantes Mask rule the power to drop stats is through intimidation because of Dante being the Legend that he is people fear him. Since he has been around for AGES and the like people know who he is and know a asswhoopin is comming from a Fluff stand point.

 

Also how many Of you Sons of Russ want to cross out all mention of Thunder wolf mounts? from the codex? because Its such a fluffy thing But yeah We have some silly rules and so do you lot its called game balance and we both pay pretty hefty points for these things.

 

Sure I play Flesh Tearers so there is only one SC for me sure he is not the greatest ruleswise but hell he is cool< BUT I will be playing a army that uses a counts as Dante when I decide to Build my Pre Heresy BA But thats another story completly.

[Decoy]

Actually, Thunderwolves are (In my opinion) fluffy, fairly cheap for what they do, and dead 'ard. 110 points for a model that can absorb a fair bit of firepower as well as dominate in Close Combat, with the maneuverability to effectively chase down and kill whatever I want it to? Yes, please. T-Wolves can be fit into any game, even one as small as 1000, without being out of sorts. If anything, Thunderwolves are one of the main units we have that not only CAN be a mainstay, but oftentime is.

 

I just ain't so fond of folk casually dismissing Thunderwolves; Since second edition, I was wondering. "You know, if these things are as big as bloody TANKS, why aren't we ridin' them into battle?" Lo and behold, poof, here they are in our new Dex. They're competent, reasonably priced, and strategic enough to turn the tide of battle singlehandedly, if someone uses them correctly. They seem fairly Wolfy to me in that regard. B)

[Michaelus]

Actually, Thunderwolves are (In my opinion) fluffy, fairly cheap for what they do, and dead 'ard. 110 points for a model that can absorb a fair bit of firepower as well as dominate in Close Combat, with the maneuverability to effectively chase down and kill whatever I want it to? Yes, please. T-Wolves can be fit into any game, even one as small as 1000, without being out of sorts. If anything, Thunderwolves are one of the main units we have that not only CAN be a mainstay, but oftentime is.

 

I just ain't so fond of folk casually dismissing Thunderwolves; Since second edition, I was wondering. "You know, if these things are as big as bloody TANKS, why aren't we ridin' them into battle?" Lo and behold, poof, here they are in our new Dex. They're competent, reasonably priced, and strategic enough to turn the tide of battle singlehandedly, if someone uses them correctly. They seem fairly Wolfy to me in that regard. :)

 

What he said. Fits perfectly. B)

 

TWC is already as hard as a Predator. Give them SS, then you're seeing at a fast moving, Thunder-wielding Land Raider. It simply won't die. (Ok, a few bad rolls see him dead, but you get the point..)

 

I just love TWC.. Too bad they don't have the models. (which is why i don't run them. Neither is the Thunderlord..)

 

For the Blood Angels:

You get a SC (Dante), that is MOST useful when he is buffing your army, NOT in CC (aside from death-mask, FnP and FC). SG as troops, pin-point DS. CMON!

[DV8]

There's a lot of...I wouldn't say malice...but zealous fervor being thrown around by both sides for their respective heroes. I'm also seeing so many posters trying to "stack" odds in their favor by saying "oh Arjac will have a squad with him, and a Land Raider for mobility" or "Dante will have an uber death squad with him too".

 

If you cut out (no offense) all the BS, and boil down the arguments, you end up with two situations you have to debate over:

 

1. In a vacuum, one on one, what character/unit in the Space Wolf book can reliably kill Dante? The key contender here seems to be Arjac.

 

2. In the grander scheme of an actual game, army on army, how do you counter Dante?

 

I play Space Wolves. I've used all the key characters/units. I play a Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard army, so I know Dante. I can tell you now he is no combat monster. He is a support unit, and an army buff.

 

Dante has stats equivalent to a Wolf Lord, but he is Initiative 6, with 4 Wounds, and a 2+/4+ save. He is equipped with the Axe Mortalis (master-crafted Power Weapon), an Infernus Pistol, his custom Death Mask (despite how cheesy you may think the rule is, if it's in the book you are only gimping yourself not to use it, as it is included in his points cost), a Jump Pack, and Frag and Krak Grenades.

 

He is a "durable" character, so long as he doesn't have to go up against anything S8+, but his role isn't as the front-line killer that Space Wolves are known to have. And even then I think a lot of people fail to realize what many of the Space Wolf characters are really built to do.

 

Ragnar is a unit grinder.

Arjac is a character/monster killer.

Logan is a support character.

 

So to the first situation, in a vacuum, one on one, can Arjac kill Dante? Yes he can. Charge or no charge, Arjac is an absolute monster whose sole purpose is to lay the hurt on enemy characters, so yes. Dante will be pasted, period. High initiative won't matter when he only has 6 attacks (4 will hit, 2 will wound, you'll save one, being generous).

 

The moment you start arguing "well Arjac has a squad with him", then you move out of the vacuum and you play the army game, at which point you have to really consider the roles they play in the army, at which point you really REALLY begin to see where Dante begins to shine.

 

First and foremost, he makes Sanguinary Guard scoring. May not be important to many (and as a general consensus Sanguinary Guard aren't exactly the most efficient unit), but for those who field a pure Sanguinary Guard army, it's equivalent to fielding Logan.

 

Secondly, his Death Mask drops the WS, I, A, and Wounds of any one enemy Independent Character, while functioning as a Death Mask (at the start of any Assault phase you're in combat with one or more models/units equipped with a Death Mask, you make a Leadership test. If you fail, you're reduced to WS1 for the duration of that assault). Yes, the initial impression is to reduce the stats of a combat character to make him easier to take out, but you can also target such things like Librarians or Farseers. Especially since Librarians only have 2 Wounds, it makes any peril an automatic death for them.

 

Dante also has a nifty ability called Strategic Strike, which lets him and any Jump-Pack unit that Deep Strikes to simply be placed on the table. No scattering. I think you can see how useful that can be...

 

Finally Dante and any unit he joins has Hit and Run. Which means he can jump into combat, leave at the end of your turn if he's still engaged, and shoot/assault another unit.

 

All this puts him firmly in the same role that Logan occupies in the Space Wolf book, that is a decent mid-level killing character, but a high level support unit. And for the modest price tag of 230 points.

 

So to the second situation, in an army with Dante, how do you combat him? The answer is simple. If he isn't the immediate threat that's being rammed down the throat of your army, ignore him. He doesn't do much to make him a "must kill ASAP" like Mephiston, so deny him the support he needs to be survivable and just kill the rest of the army.

 

 

DV8

[Wispy]

You can't consider Arjac without the squad he's part of, because unlike any indendant character, the squad he is attached to is just a part of him. You have to have a squad of wolf guard before you can have Arjac.

 

Not considering the wolf guard squad he is purchased with placing Arjac outside a vacuum. He is a unit, not an IC.

[DV8]

But my point stands, with or without a unit (with Arjac), Dante cannot hope to kill Arjac in a single round of combat (statistically) unless he can pull off a charge within range of a Sanguinary Priest AND catch Arjac when he is solo. And that's even if Arjac were an Independent Character (which he is not). And even still, when charging within range of a Sanguinary Priest, Dante will average 4-5 hits, 2-3 wounds, and Arjac save 1.5-2 (broad estimates, don't even bother trying to correct me on mathhammer).

 

Which, I hope, would have put that debate to rest.

 

EDIT: The reason that I argue the inclusion of a unit with Arjac moving from a vacuum one-on-one duel to an army match (at which point the debate moves to a different issue entirely) is that as Wolf Guard, Arjac can be one of three different units:

 

1. Part of a larger Wolf Guard pack (the one he was assigned to).

2. A solo unit (that is, every other Wolf Guard in his unit was attached to other units).

3. Attached to another unit in the army capable of having Wolf Guard in TDA join them.

 

Now ignoring options 1 and 3, assuming you are left with option 2. In a complete vacuum, were Dante and Arjac to duke it out mano-e-mano, Arjac wins, hands down, almost every time barring great rolling on Dante's part, and poor rolling on Arjac's part. Which renders options 1 and 3 relatively moot because with or without a unit backing him up or even simply to act as ablative wounds, Arjac still beats Dante.

 

Going back to the original post then, the poster asked a two-fold question:

 

1. How do you counter Dante?

2. How do you beat Blood Angels when they include Dante in the list (with the caveat of Clash of Heroes, which I'm not too familiar with, so I'm approaching this from a regular game of 40k).

 

I would hope this and my previous post had made it abundantly clear that if you specifically wanted to counter and kill Dante, Arjac was your main man. Barring that, a Thunderlord with TH, SS, and WTN would do the trick just as well. There's no need to argue the whethertos and whyfores of if or what types of units Arjac will be with, because there's no need. Even solo Arjac will beat Dante. It's like flogging a dead horse.

 

So at this point you have the second part of the OP's question, that is, how do you beat the Blood Angels when they have Dante? Well the answer to this question I also gave in my last post. Dante is a tough cookie to crack with 2+/4+ and 4 wounds, but his offensive power isn't particularily strong. If you kill the army supporting him, he is not altogether difficult to take down.

 

SECOND EDIT: I feel a further expansion should follow. Dante is by no means a stellar character. He has decent stats, but sub-par gear, and the bulk of his special rules favors Jump Infantry and Sanguinary Guard. Which means that the inclusion of Dante in a list will tell you all you need to know: you're fighting a Sanguinary Guard force. There is absolutely no other reason to take Dante, considering how much he costs, and what he actually gives for the army (very little unless you're actually Sanguinary Guard).

 

Precision Strike? With Descent of Angels or even Drop Podding Melta-Dreads/Furiosos, you should have no difficulty landing your tank-killers with relative accuracy to where they need to go. There is no reason to pay Dante's exorbant price tag simply to guarantee you land a unit where you want them to (as it only happens once).

 

His shiny Death Mask. It reduces the stats of one Independent Character. Useless against half the armies in the game, mediocre at best against the other half (taking both armies as a whole into context).

 

Hit and Run. Would you pay 230 points for this USR? I don't think so.

 

Which leaves making Sanguinary Guard scoring. An army that only includes one or maybe two units of Sanguinary Guard wouldn't bother wasting points on a character that costs as much as a Land Raider simply to make them Troops, when for the points they could just buy a scoring unit.

 

So realistically and tactically speaking, the only time taking Dante becomes at all feasible (or even remotely necessary) is when the only units you intend to field are Sanguinary Guard (at which point you need Dante to make them Troops to make your army legal). In that light then, Dante's special rules make a LOT of sense and seem valuable.

 

Precision Strike. With the 6" range of Infernus Pistols (3" if you want the extra dice for penetration), being able to land your SG unit with Infernus Pistols exactly 2-3" away from an enemy tank is absolutely necessary where even a fraction of an inch matters.

 

The Death Mask can be used to de-buff an enemy character to minimize the potential damage they can do to your severly outnumbered force. Reducing the Wounds makes them easier to kill, reducing their Attacks makes them less killy, reducing their WS makes them easier to hit, and reducing their Initiative means that if/when you charge (assuming you're smart and have a Priest nearby), you strike at the same time and can take him down before he takes you down.

 

Hit and Run. Being able to extract yourself from a costly combat could save your unit, and in an army where each unit costs as much as or more than a Land Raider, they all count.

 

Any player who takes Dante otherwise just wasted 230 points (when for 20 more he could have taken Mephiston).

 

The exception of course being Apocalypse, which takes 40k rules and throws it out the window, so we won't even go there.

 

 

DV8

[Decoy]

So, DV8. Long story short..

 

"ARJAC SMASH!!!"?

[DV8]

So, DV8. Long story short..

 

"ARJAC SMASH!!!"?

 

Pretty much.

 

 

DV8

[Grimtooth]

So, DV8. Long story short..

 

"ARJAC SMASH!!!"?

 

Pretty much.

 

 

DV8

 

Yea, unhero-herohammer ftw.

[Leonaides]

I have to laugh - looks like I went and bruised a BA players ego and he had to go open his mouth. And as far as I'm concerned - I'm being perfectly fair.

 

Listen dude, I'm sure that squad is awesome, but you're spouting a laundry list of requirements for Dante that require the whole battle to be going your way. This is why we bring armies with us - to deal and respond to threats that will change the course of the game. Maybe Arjac and his boys jumps out of a land raider and denies Dante positioning he might need. Maybe Dante's squad is ravaged before he even reaches Arjac. Or maybe Arjac's squad bites it to a vindactor blast and Dante can get him head on.

 

I know if I had my way in Clash of Heroes , I would do my very best to ensure Dante will be slogging by himself by the time he reachs Arjac.... Or when Arjac reaches him. You will be trying to ensure the exact same thing.

 

 

What I am saying is this: In a mission where two ICs have to wound each other in assault to decide the winner, Arjac has the advantage for these reasons:

- Dante can be targeted directly by Arjac, while Arjac can hide in whatever squad he wants and be untouchable

- Arjac is designed to kill indepentant characters. He hits on 3, re-rolls hits, and wounds on 2.

- Dante does not have eternal warrior - a single wound from Arjac would kill him and the game is lost.

- Dante is foot slogging (usually - storm ravens arent exactly common just yet) while Arjac can get a Land Raider.

 

Dante needs a lot of luck in the battle to overcome Arjac's advantages.

 

Nothing said here is untrue and I don't really have time for bruised egos.

 

Oh, the shame... A space Wolf player who doesnt like to hear the equivalent backchat to his mead-hall boasting...

 

230pts vs anything up to about 500pts (someone was talking about him in a 10 man wolfguard squad or something?) - I'd expect Dante to go down. Put Dante and a average (really - a basic Marine assualt squad, and a sang priest is not what I'd call awesome) support squad up against Arjac and co (which only levels the playing field from it being heavily tilted in the SW favour) and suddenly it looks a lot more dicey. And then I've got a bruised ego. Arjac's in a LR? fine, I'll add in a couple of Vindicators to equal it up again shall I? We could continue like this for days, but I dont really fancy chasing my tail... :yes:

 

You seem to be slightly confused about a few things as well, like dante being a footslogger and Arjac not. Arjac is a footslogger unless you buy him a dirty great big tank. Dante is Jump Infantry. Last time I checked, Jump infantry can move further than normal infantry. I nail your tank (assuming you have it in the first place) and suddenly I have the advantage in the situation you've concocted. There is no reason for me to put myself in the situation that allows you to fight me on anything other than terms favourable to me, because I can control the timing and placement of the engagement. Unless of course, I'm foolish to do exactly what you want me to do and walk Dante alone into 3 times his points worth of enemy models/units.

 

Dante CAN target Arjac directly, simply by removing the squad he's surrounded with. Dont think I can wipe out a squad? Maybe not with Dante alone, but thats kind of the point - he wouldnt be alone. All I'm trying to say is you cant give Arjac benefits X, Y and Z without extending the same courtesy to Dante. Or at least you cant and still suggest that this is anythig other than youthful Blood Claws round the feasting table kind of talk. I'm not saying that Arjac isnt designed to kill enemy IC's, nor am I saying that Dante wont be killed if Arjac lands a single unsaved wound on him. But I am saying that Dante isnt quite as defenceless as you suggest. Is he optimal in this situation? No. Is it a guaranteed walkover for you? No.

 

Dante on the charge - hits on 3's (with a single re-roll), wounds on 3's or 4's, and a competant BA general wouldnt engage you untill you were down to a single wound. As I said before, you may like the odds, but a 3+ save against 2 or 3 wounds? You have a very good chance of being dead.

[Decoy]

If we're going to bring the entirety of each army into this, it'd just turn into a BA vs SW slugfest. I just had to delete a response posted about how SW are , as a whole, completely tailored against BA. Let's avoid that.

 

As it stands, Dante dies horridly to Arjac. A squishy, pulpy, useless, horrible, pasted death.

[Wispy]

I still think it's funny Leonaides is missing the point. :(

 

Listen dude, I'm not getting into a BA vs SW slug fist. This is about two character, not the armies that accompany them.

 

 

I'm done stating my points. If you want to rampage through the thread all butthurt about it, go right ahead.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Yeah In which you feed their IC things while your unkillable SC cant die and slaughters everything in his way works both ways but yeah.

 

Also to whoever said BA players should cross out part of Dantes Mask rule the power to drop stats is through intimidation because of Dante being the Legend that he is people fear him. Since he has been around for AGES and the like people know who he is and know a asswhoopin is comming from a Fluff stand point.

 

Also how many Of you Sons of Russ want to cross out all mention of Thunder wolf mounts? from the codex? because Its such a fluffy thing But yeah We have some silly rules and so do you lot its called game balance and we both pay pretty hefty points for these things.

 

Sure I play Flesh Tearers so there is only one SC for me sure he is not the greatest ruleswise but hell he is cool< BUT I will be playing a army that uses a counts as Dante when I decide to Build my Pre Heresy BA But thats another story completly.

 

 

Mat Ward's justification for the Death Mask rules is that it's calling down a curse on the enemy model.

 

Really?

 

When did this turn into Warhammer Fantasy 40k?

 

Also I bet there are Ork Warbosses that have never even heard of Dante, and whose opinion of Blood Angels is just "red wunz go faster." (true in this case)

 

I don't approve of Thunder Wolf Cavalry, but it's only something that affects the Space Wolves. Dante's mask affects every other army in the game. There's nothing balanced about paying points for a character and being able to half kill an enemy model before the game even starts. Even Callidus assassins only allow you to move an enemy unit.

[Whitefireinferno]

To wispy Oh but your so wrong young "butthurt" blood claw how exactly is Arjac going to get to Dante with superior mobility comes better tactics as leonaides pointed out.

 

Oh and Freman Yeah sure its a curse but then then he is from the Primarch with Huge Psychic awsomeness so thats how it works and Orks do Know fear for they turn tail and run from the Flesh Tearers.

 

Oh and yeah I'm not attempting to start a fight here its just some of your Bloodclaws really need to learn their place. Since some folks In the Fang can really be good sorts and then others let their Chapter down.

 

* for what it's worth I do not think Arjac would work since the chart is different and says 0-1 HQ (but no more named characters) so to me it means the only named Characters allowed must be from the Hq slot, I could be wrong but thats how I read it to work. *

[Wispy]

How is Arjac going to do it? Because it's a battle and not everything goes the way you have it planned. That goes for any army in the game.

 

You guys are being silly by reacting this way, and are not helping the discussion. The chest thumping is getting lame and you should stop.

[DV8]

I don't understand why this is even still under debate, as I think this thread should have ended about 5 posts in on the first page.

 

In a one on one fight, Arjac statistically beats Dante. Period. With neither party bringing anything to the table, Arjac begins the fight with the upper-hand, and Dante has to get incredibly lucky to take down the Rock.

 

Those who continue to argue that point are, in my opinion, attempting to salvage their wounded pride.

 

It is now up to the players to adapt their tactics and their play style to bring all the elements necessary into play that will give them the upper hand (either as Blood Angels or Space Wolves).

 

 

DV8