Line Of Sight - Shooting

[Sgt. Farney]

Please correct me if I am wrong .. and reassure me if I'm Right.

 

My Marines can shoot over the heads of a squad of Gaunts and hit the Tyranid Warriors behind them. And the T.W. can shoot back. and each squad (not the gaunts ) gets a 4+ cover save because of the Gaunts.

 

assuming a flat table and no other factors apply.

 

Because the book says line of sight is from head level and marines and Tyr. War. can "see" over the Gaunts.

 

xxx Tyr. Warroirs

 

xxxxxxx Gaunts

xxxxxxxx

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxxx Marines

 

In the game the gaunts were in Rough Terrain and also had a 4+ save ... It was a rock patch Knee high on a Marine. they were shootin from cover. but so was the Tyr. War. ? ....... and apparently I was too?

[Frosty the Pyro]

LOS is determined to the entire target model, if so much as a toe is blocked (or goes between another squad, ie guants) then cover is granted. If you can draw a line from the head of the wariors to the foot of your marines then the wariors can shoot without having cover granted, not that it will mater as nids only have one shooting attack (and several psychic powers) that can ingore 3+ armor, and none may be used by a warior. The same is true your shooting to the wariors of course, but from you diagram it is almost imposible that you would have an entirely clear LOS to the wariors

[thade]

Pretty sure that if you're firing through an infantry unit at another infantry unit it's okay to draw LOS if you can, but the unit you're firing at gets a 4+ cover save from the unit you're firing through. (No, the unit you are firing through does not take any hits.)

[Iron Father Rik]

You can always shoot through both your own units and enemy units to hit enemy units on the other side.

 

The enemy unit (or your own if it is you being shot at) will receive a 4+ cover save if more than half of the unit (being shot at) is blocked by the intevening unit - which is almost always the case in this situation quite frankly. However this is linked to the relative distances of the two units, pretty much just as Frosty the Pyro said - for example if you were to be shooting at a carnifex or a Hive Tyrant, and there were a unit of termagants in between your marines and said creature, but the termagants were very very close to the monstrous creature (such as in base to base contact) then I believe that you can see well over 50% of the target unit and so it is not able to get a cover save.

Likewise if said monstrous creature in exactly the same situation shoots back at your marines, then your marines would not be entitled to a cover save.

 

Long story short, get down to a model's eye view and decide what makes sense. If the intevening unit is clearly blocking the LOS to the target unit (i.e. 50% or more of the target unit), then a cover save is granted. If not, then no cover save.

[Valerian]

You can always shoot through both your own units and enemy units to hit enemy units on the other side.

 

The enemy unit (or your own if it is you being shot at) will receive a 4+ cover save if more than half of the unit (being shot at) is blocked by the intevening unit - which is almost always the case in this situation quite frankly. However this is linked to the relative distances of the two units, pretty much just as Frosty the Pyro said - for example if you were to be shooting at a carnifex or a Hive Tyrant, and there were a unit of termagants in between your marines and said creature, but the termagants were very very close to the monstrous creature (such as in base to base contact) then I believe that you can see well over 50% of the target unit and so it is not able to get a cover save.

Likewise if said monstrous creature in exactly the same situation shoots back at your marines, then your marines would not be entitled to a cover save.

 

Long story short, get down to a model's eye view and decide what makes sense. If the intevening unit is clearly blocking the LOS to the target unit (i.e. 50% or more of the target unit), then a cover save is granted. If not, then no cover save.

 

Not quite right Rik, the requirement that 50% of the target unit must be in Cover to get a Cover Save only applies to the number of models in the enemy unit (for example at least 2 of 4 enemy Tyranid Warrior must be behind the Guants to get the save). It has nothing to do with the model itself, so there is no requirement for the Guants to be tall enough to block LOS to more than 50% of the Tyranid Warrior model. If the Guants only block your view to the tyranid Warrior's feet, then the Warrior still gets a save.

 

The only time the 50% covered rule applies to an individual model is when determining if vehicles count as Obscured.

 

In your example the lone Carnifex with Termagents in front of him in base contact would still get a Cover Save because a) the Carnifex isn't a vehicle, B) at least 50% of the unit is behind the interposing unit of Termagents (in this case 100% of the single-model Carnifex unit is behind them). It doesn't matter that 80% or more of the Carnifex's actual mass/bulk can be seen over the Termagents.

 

V

[Iron Father Rik]

You can always shoot through both your own units and enemy units to hit enemy units on the other side.

 

The enemy unit (or your own if it is you being shot at) will receive a 4+ cover save if more than half of the unit (being shot at) is blocked by the intevening unit - which is almost always the case in this situation quite frankly. However this is linked to the relative distances of the two units, pretty much just as Frosty the Pyro said - for example if you were to be shooting at a carnifex or a Hive Tyrant, and there were a unit of termagants in between your marines and said creature, but the termagants were very very close to the monstrous creature (such as in base to base contact) then I believe that you can see well over 50% of the target unit and so it is not able to get a cover save.

Likewise if said monstrous creature in exactly the same situation shoots back at your marines, then your marines would not be entitled to a cover save.

 

Long story short, get down to a model's eye view and decide what makes sense. If the intevening unit is clearly blocking the LOS to the target unit (i.e. 50% or more of the target unit), then a cover save is granted. If not, then no cover save.

 

Not quite right Rik, the requirement that 50% of the target unit must be in Cover to get a Cover Save only applies to the number of models in the enemy unit (for example at least 2 of 4 enemy Tyranid Warrior must be behind the Guants to get the save). It has nothing to do with the model itself, so there is no requirement for the Guants to be tall enough to block LOS to more than 50% of the Tyranid Warrior model. If the Guants only block your view to the tyranid Warrior's feet, then the Warrior still gets a save.

 

The only time the 50% covered rule applies to an individual model is when determining if vehicles count as Obscured.

 

In your example the lone Carnifex with Termagents in front of him in base contact would still get a Cover Save because a) the Carnifex isn't a vehicle, :lol: at least 50% of the unit is behind the interposing unit of Termagents (in this case 100% of the single-model Carnifex unit is behind them). It doesn't matter that 80% or more of the Carnifex's actual mass/bulk can be seen over the Termagents.

 

V

 

Okay, yeah I realise that now looking at the rulebook (which always helps! ;)) Once again rules trump common sense. Ach, well I usually play it the way I described I believe, as do most of my mates, simply because that seemed to make sense so we did it that way.

[CuznP]

The Iron Father was right in the first place.

 

The Carnifex is a monstrous creature. And in the Monstrous Creature rules on BRB page 51, it states "for a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on page 16) has to be in cover from the point of view of the majority of the firing models. So a carnifex behind a squad of termagaunts is unlikely to get a cover save.

[Valerian]

The Iron Father was right in the first place.

 

The Carnifex is a monstrous creature. And in the Monstrous Creature rules on BRB page 51, it states "for a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on page 16) has to be in cover from the point of view of the majority of the firing models. So a carnifex behind a squad of termagaunts is unlikely to get a cover save.

 

I thought there might be another exception for Monstrous Creatures, but I'm away from my rulebook on vacation, so they work the same as for vehicles, in which case Rik's example was correct. However, I was also correct in describing how it works for most models (eg not vehicles or monstrous creatures), so I wanted to make sure folks didn't get that standard method confused.

 

Thanks for the correction on MCs, so now everyone should know how it works in all cases.

 

V