Doom of Malantai vs Transports

[Stormbrow II]

I know there are few things that are (or have seeing as DoM threads get locked) raising as much bile as the question of Doom of Malantai's Leech attack against units in transports. What I'll say now is this is not a thread asking if he does or not - my gaming group has already decided that Adepticon's FAQ on the matter was pretty poor so we're ignoring it in favour of something more sensible.

 

The reason I'm posting this is because I recently played a game using Adepticon's FAQ answer to see if it really was game-breaking or if we were overreacting. I can't quite remember what damage he did but something came up that we'd like to ask others that are using the Adepticon rules.

 

Doom dropped down from a Pod near my tanks and hit 2 units. I failed my Ld test with a unit and said I was going to ground to claim a boost to my save. My opponent argued that I couldn't because I was in a transport but we looked and there was nothing in the rules that prevented me doing this so I got my 3+ saves and next turn my tank drove away but we played it that the unit couldn't disembark because they were pinned inside the tank but the tank was unaffected.

 

After the game we decided that the Adepticon rules wouldn't be used here at all as it gave rise to anomalies like the above which were best avoided. My question is did we play this right or was I being a rules-lawyer :cussehawk? My opponent didn't mind but if I were to spring this at a tournament my opponent might not be impressed so we decided to ask other opinions.

 

The main thing we can take from this is that its confined to the Doom in Adepticon & other such tourneys. My fears are that GW will be lazy and copy these sloppy rulings word-for-word as they have done in the past...

[Frosty the Pyro]

Spirit leach is not a shooting attack, nor does it use LOS of anykind, cover saves are not aplicable against it.

[Stormbrow II]

Read my post again please. I'm *not* asking if he hits units in transports or if it grants cover.

 

I'm asking if, using Adepticon's FAQ, the Doom hits a unit in a transport can the unit inside go to ground? If it does, can the transport move next turn?

 

That is all.

[Reglor]

I think he is saying that because going to ground gives you a cover save (or improves your existing one) going to ground would have no effect on the spirit leach and so you have no reason to go to ground in the first place.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The status of the embarked has no impact on if a transport can move or not. Its a little fuzzier on the disembarking part, and will depend entirely on if dissembarking counts as moving (I believe the answer is yes) as going to ground dissallows movement. If yes then you could not dissembark, if no you could disembark but could not move further afterword.

 

But its inconsiquental as there is nothing to be gained from it (no coversave to enhance), and to my knowledge there are no abilities that can pin an embarked unit.

[Stormbrow II]

Thanks for elaborating lads.

 

I think he is saying that because going to ground gives you a cover save (or improves your existing one) going to ground would have no effect on the spirit leach and so you have no reason to go to ground in the first place.

The Adepticon FAQ says that units in transports are affected by Spirit Leech but get a 4+ save for being in a transport. I don't know how that conclusion was reached but there it is. As stated earlier, we play the other way normally (can't hit units in transports, no cover for units hit).

 

If you get a 4+ save and going to ground gets you a +1 to this, surely you can go to ground while in the transport? Note this is unique to the Adepticon FAQ ruling on the Doom and has no bearing on almost everything else because you can't normally shoot a unit in a transport. Hopefully it'll be GW Faq'ed differently but until then...

 

@Frosty: I reckon they're stuck inside the transport although the APC itself is able to move as you said first. If the tank is then destroyed the unit would remain pinned without testing.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The Adepticon FAQ says that units in transports are affected by Spirit Leech but get a 4+ save for being in a transport. I don't know how that conclusion was reached but there it is

 

Sounds like they were trying to comprimise between the rules and people's desire to be invulnerable inside a transport.

[Stormbrow II]

Sounds like they were trying to comprimise between the rules and people's desire to be invulnerable inside a transport.

Yup, and in the end they went too far by pulling rules out of thin air really.

 

I'm still wondering if I can go to ground inside my tank though. No one's answered that yet. :devil:

[Frosty the Pyro]

Sounds like they were trying to comprimise between the rules and people's desire to be invulnerable inside a transport.

Yup, and in the end they went too far by pulling rules out of thin air really.

 

I'm still wondering if I can go to ground inside my tank though. No one's answered that yet. :devil:

pg 24 "any time after an enemy has rolled to hit and to wound"

 

There are no further restrictions. So while you could not have gone to ground against the doom (as there is neither a to hit or a to wound roll apllied), or against gets hot/perils of the warp as its not the enemy rolling them, any other case were those conditions are met, then an embarked unit could go to ground.

 

So the answer is nothing disallows it, but i will be damned if I can think of a case that it would be aplicable (as there is a deeply hidden rule in the building sections that prevents tau smart missiles or tyranid impaler cannons from targeting embarked units)

[Acebaur]

I wouldn't worry about GW adopting Adepticons FAQ because for an example Adepticon said that you couldn't use a deffrolla to hit tanks when it was very clear that you can. GW FAQ'd it that you can indeed hit tanks because thats what the rule says. I personally don't like the INAT because they have so many stupid rulings in there.

[SeattleDV8]

The latest version of the INAT FAQ has the answer

"TYR.58B.02 – Q: Can cover saves be taken against wounds caused by „Spirit Leech‟, especially in the case of embarked models?

A: Yes they can, check line of sight from the Doom of Malan‟tai model to see if the affected unit(s) are in cover or not. Embarked units always count as in cover for this purpose and so will get a „4+‟ cover save, although they cannot „[go] to ground‟ while embarked[clarification]."

 

Generally I like the INAT but wow I think they really messed this up.

[Azatoth]

How do you goto ground with a unit that is not there?

 

I think we all agree that the rules for transported units are.. lacking currently.

[Grey Mage]

How do you goto ground with a unit that is not there?

 

I think we all agree that the rules for transported units are.. lacking currently.

Its not the transport rules, its the DoMs- they introduce something entirely without precident into the game... and provide a bare minimum of rules. GW Fail.

[thade]

I wouldn't worry about GW adopting Adepticons FAQ because for an example Adepticon said that you couldn't use a deffrolla to hit tanks when it was very clear that you can. GW FAQ'd it that you can indeed hit tanks because thats what the rule says. I personally don't like the INAT because they have so many stupid rulings in there.

 

^ This.

[Frosty the Pyro]

How do you goto ground with a unit that is not there?

 

I think we all agree that the rules for transported units are.. lacking currently.

Its not the transport rules, its the DoMs- they introduce something entirely without precident into the game... and provide a bare minimum of rules. GW Fail.

Thats not entirely true, there is a great deal of precident with things radiating out from transports and the quoted rule that allows it specifily says it works in both directions. There is even precident with things effecting folk in transports with the souless rule/psychic hoods/shadow in the warp/etc effecting psychers in a transport. The closest to being without precident is wounding embarked models but perils of the warp and gets hot has been doing that for some time, though what happens if those wounds force a fallback is still unanswered, but that is not the DoM's fault as it is a problem that existed long before then.

 

 

Oh and i was looking over the go to ground rules again, and it doesnt just forbid moving and shooting, it forbids any volintary action, so if by some strang quirk (or silly FAQ) you do go to ground in a vehicle, then you most definatly cannot disembark.

[Grey Mage]

No other ability has damaged units inside a transport... and I cant remember an aura ability that damaged opponents without a standard of armor and cover saves. In fact, I cant think of an aura effect off the top of my head that damages anyone that isnt a psychic shooting attack, or the monolith... and none of them will damage anything inside transports.

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

Slightly off topic, but would a Wolf Tooth Talisman protect vs. the DoM spirit leach? I know a Runic Weapon won't as there is no psychic test made.

[Grey Mage]

Its not a psychic effect... so no.