Feeling A Loss

[Black Paw WL]

A number of the local players in my area have switched over to blood angels. It is kind of depressing to see them abandon there old armies. Is it because the Blood Angels new codex is so great or maybe better than ours? I would love to be able to tell these people why the Space Wolves are still the better choice when it comes to SM....

[Requiem of the Wolf]

A number of the local players in my area have switched over to blood angels. It is kind of depressing to see them abandon there old armies. Is it because the Blood Angels new codex is so great or maybe better than ours? I would love to be able to tell these people why the Space Wolves are still the better choice when it comes to SM....

Don't tell them...Show them. Blast their armies off the table and grin at them.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

laugh at them.

 

when they see the shiny fade and they are stuck with a army of emo vampires, just laugh.

 

WLK

[Bulweih]

I'd say, go even further and maybe buy some SW stuff that you need of them cheap and then go ahead and blast them off the tables :sweat: .

 

Call me old fashioned, but in my opinion, there's nobody just half as awesome as the wolves of Fenris.

[Vash113]

A number of the local players in my area have switched over to blood angels. It is kind of depressing to see them abandon there old armies. Is it because the Blood Angels new codex is so great or maybe better than ours? I would love to be able to tell these people why the Space Wolves are still the better choice when it comes to SM....

 

If they were really Sons of Fenris they would have stayed with the Space Wolves, so you might as well save your breath. On the other hand, take advantage of the situation and buy their old stuff off of them cheap.

 

... then of course tear them to shreds on the tabletop as the others suggested. :sweat:

[Warhorse47]

A player who loves close combat will stay with the BA. If not, buy the SW stuff cheap from the flavor of the month guys and laugh all the way to the bank.......

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

half of my 2nd SW army came from people who jumped ship when the new shiny came out...chumps.

 

WLK

[MagneticFreak]

Take 2 RunePriests and 2 Thunderwolf Lords and a bunch of Long Fangs. Cast Tempest Wrath twice a turn, and blast these deviant blood su 6%&! ers to oblivion!

[Aramis_the_Red]

I'm a fan of both armies myself and play both. It also makes me absolutely terrifying in an apocalypse game. I've only done it once, and it's prohibitively expensive, but you should see the look on someone's face when your 10 TWC Wolf Guard Pile out of a landraider crusader w/ a Sanguinary Priest, Reclusiarch, a Boo BA Librarian, and Wolf Priest attached. It's a jaw dropping moment for any opponent when 40 preferred enemy(wolf priest), reroll to hit(reclusiarch), reroll to wound(wolf claws), str 5(sang priest), init 5(sang priest), power weapon attacks multi charge 3-4 squads and break 2/3 of them after combat resolution(boo!). And that doesn't even include the attacks from the IC's. It's priceless.

 

When I start a new army, I don't throw out my old one. Not to say I've never been a bandwagoner.(emperor knows I couldn't wait to shell out the cash for my old Tau army when they first dropped bavk in 3rd ed.)

[Grey Mage]

A number of the local players in my area have switched over to blood angels. It is kind of depressing to see them abandon there old armies. Is it because the Blood Angels new codex is so great or maybe better than ours? I would love to be able to tell these people why the Space Wolves are still the better choice when it comes to SM....

Space Wolves dont have a 1 in 6 chance of PMS. :) Atleast, thats what my GF says anyways.

 

Personally, I feel that the SWs have more flex to them- the list simply synergizes better than a C:BA does. Were certainly far more adaptable on the table top- blood angels good adaptability ends once the list is made.

 

Grey Hunters kick the teeth in Assault Squads at range, and Tacticals in CC, for cheaper. And theyre about as good as either in its own bailiwick.

 

Long Fangs have the cheap weapon prices that BA Devastators have come to enjoy, but cheaper marines and split fire without combat squading gives a good edge.

 

The goodness of Dreads as elties vs HS depends on the list, but I do prefer it our way.

 

Mephiston is about the only character they have who can go toe to toe with a wolf lord and expect to make it out the other side on a regular basis. Our psychers are just as good as their are- far better on the defense, but a small selection of psychic powers.

 

Our transports are reasonably priced- deep striking landraiders are over valued frankly, as it just screams *HIT ME WITH A MELTA!* or *MISSHAP!*. And their Rhinos/Razorbacks are pricier, when a rhinos main value is that its cheap.

 

Its not all bad of course- libby dreads, furious charge, feel no pain, sterngaurd... 5 troops choices. Theyve got alot going for them. My first 10 battles with them find me 9-1-0 though, and even when the players get their feet under them I dont expect it to get much worse than that.

 

That being said, the way alot of people play their C:SM armies, there wasnt alot of reason to stay put outside of chapter pride. For alot of people that doesnt seem to be enough. Though frankly I think Id rather have combat tactics if theyre not going with assault marine heavy armies.

[Black Paw WL]

I saw a Dread today at the shop Ba with two twin linked AC. Can we wolves take a Dread with two twin linked AC.... Or am I reading the codex wrong.

[Vash113]

I saw a Dread today at the shop Ba with two twin linked AC. Can we wolves take a Dread with two twin linked AC.... Or am I reading the codex wrong.

 

I assume you mean Autocannon, and no we cannot. It used to be a Dark Angels only thing, the Mortis Dreadnaught. Then the Dark Angels lost it, then the C:SM got it, and so did Blood Angels and Dark Angels still don't have it... and are not happy about it.

[Black Paw WL]

Page 87 of the Space Wolves Codex.....

Dreadnought:

Replace assault cannon with....

twin linked autocannon....

Replace Dreadnought close combat weapon with.....

thin-linked autocannon or missile launcher.

 

What am I missing?

[Grey Mage]

Page 87 of the Space Wolves Codex.....

Dreadnought:

Replace assault cannon with....

twin linked autocannon....

Replace Dreadnought close combat weapon with.....

thin-linked autocannon or missile launcher.

 

What am I missing?

Nothing.... SWs can do this, as you pointed out. I think Vash got confused- he plays alot of different marines.

[Black Paw WL]

Thank You sir...

[Thunderhawk3015]

All I have to say to the local flavor of the month guys who swapped to Blood Angels around me is "eat it" after my wolves hammer them time and time again. Sure the Blood Angels look like bad boys on paper, but at the end of the day all that fast armor and deep striking Land Raider stuff dies to a few well places melta weapon shots or melta bombs in the arse.

 

As to why Wolves are better,

 

1. We have beer

 

2. Our Long Fangs can carry more heavy weapons, and shoot more targets per turn than any other heavy weapon squad.

 

3. Blood Claws on the charge

 

4. 4 HQ units that can be tooled out to do anything

 

5. Sagas

 

6. Thunder Wolves

 

7. Wolf Guard as squad leaders

 

8. Any Space Wolf special character.

 

9. Wolf Scouts

 

10. We have beer

[Wispy]

I've had a few games with some new BA players and they're always generally surprised when I actually beat them in assault. We muster much more attacks they do normally and can rob them the charge with our host of cavalry options. I hate to remind them being fast doesn't make them better in combat. Their priests are nasty, of course, but they're an obvious target to home in on.

[Vash113]

Nothing.... SWs can do this, as you pointed out. I think Vash got confused- he plays alot of different marines.

 

Oops, yes I got confused, this is true. :D

[Grey Mage]

Nothing.... SWs can do this, as you pointed out. I think Vash got confused- he plays alot of different marines.

 

Oops, yes I got confused, this is true. :D

Its ok, Ive got a keg of mead next to the computer, come... get confused with me and well find some DA to rough up a bit ;).

[Vash113]

Its ok, Ive got a keg of mead next to the computer, come... get confused with me and well find some DA to rough up a bit ;).

 

Ah now that does sound like good fun, we could parade some double AC Dreads past them and watch them steam har har! :D

[Requiem of the Wolf]

The one thing that really makes me sad,is my store is new enough...we didn't have any of the army jumpers. And the only person playing Blood Angels was cheating constantly so he doesn't really count as a BA player. Oh...We got a new Black Templar player in the store that I got to fight...WAs a fun fight all things considered. His guys were a lot nastier in HtH then I had expected at first...that "everyone gets preferred enemy" bit is annoying. My TWC lord managed to take out 7 twin LC Terminators by himself though,which was fun. And his IC's got to learn first hand why spending the 1 point on Frag grenades is something that everyone should do. *giggles* Murderous hurricane...I love it.

 

But seriously..Don't worry too much about making them come back to the Wolves. The type that will abandon an army just because there is something newer,isn't the type that would really fit in with the wolves anyways.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

angels have a few good builds yes, but the wolves have some of the strongest builds. when they realize that jump packs and dc arent all they are cracked out to be they can return

 

 

also twilight is for 13 year old girls not war gamers ( no offense to 13 year old girls that happen to play war games)

[the jeske]

And their Rhinos/Razorbacks are pricier, when a rhinos main value is that its cheap.

yeah only most of BA armies use RAS what makes both rhinos/razors and LR cheaper then the SW ones. That is why they make a far better base for a LR rush army then any other SM army. ah and you forgot scouting baals and the way mefo is worded he can and will kill more or less any HQ , then only ones he has problems with are nid ones that have lash whips[but those also cost more then him].

 

In general BA are not better just different . They make better base for alfa strike list [with landers] and LR rush ones. their mech is just as good as the SW one , not worse and not better . They have support units that are very nice [baals for example] . Yes they have more options that wont be used much [but then again how offten do SW use BC or BC jump packers ?] , but its nothing new where 4 or 5 units do the same one or two that are most cost effective will be spamed.

 

I also wouldnt agree that BA arent flexible , they can make real nice razorback list that work well and are [just like SW] both ok in assault and good at shoting.

[earthen]

Wolves can make one of the best shooting lists in the game. Courtesy of YTTH, Yes the truth hurts blog.

 

1850s

 

HQ

logan

runepriest

 

Troops

10WG 8 in power armor 2 in terminator armor/w Cyclone MLs and chainfist

5 WG 4 power armor 1 terminator /w Cyclone ML and chainfist

5 WG 4 power armor 1 terminator /w Cyclone ML and chainfist

 

Elite

Lone wolf - terminator armor, chainfist, stormshield

Lone wolf - terminator armor, chainfist, stormshield

Lone wolf - terminator armor, chainfist, stormshield

 

FA

1 Thunderwolf - PF, SS

1 Thunderwolf - PF, SS

 

Heavy Support

Long fangs - 5ML

Long fangs - 5ML

Long fangs - 5ML

 

 

 

 

Now think about this. Logan + rune priest go with the big wolf guard squad. Logan gives tank hunters. 4 Str 9 and D6 str 8 shots per turn from that unit.

Every other bit of shooting in this list is able to divide fire, 2 MLs at a time for incredible fire control and efficiency.

 

Against CC armies, you sit and tarpit them with amazing lone wolves+TWC. against shooty armies, you move forward fast. oh lookie - all your CML fire is mobile! yay! Basically, you push up with everything - a shooty army has to choose between taking out long fangs and biting charges (the TWC are great for fast pressure here) or taking out your advance and getting raked by missile fire to kingdom come.

 

In CC, you can also hold your own pretty well.

the lone wolves are your line backers - one lone wolf can and will hold up an entire BA assault squad, BA dread, etc. All for 85 points.

thunder wolves are behind your lone wolves, infront of your MLs. they are your fast response units. plug holes in the line, jump out and take a whack at any land raiders that get too close.

Logan pops +1 attack bubble, gives preffered enemy and either on the charge or counter assault, that big WG unit has Logan (who is no slouch in CC), the rune priest, 2 rerolling to hit Chainfists, and every Power Armored wolf guard has 5 attacks..... how many armies get troops with that many attacks?!? think about that. Keep in mind that its a bubble, and extra lone wolf/TWC attacks are a BIG deal.

 

Notice the prevalence of chain fists. lots of BA lists use librarian dreads. Lone wolves with a 3+ invuln, 2 wounds and Eternal warrior are really tough to kill. Lone wolves reroll to hit against dreads and everything T5+. think about it. They also have a 2+ and FNP. So they'll walk through all your Baal predator fire and still punk that dread.

 

They can also make one of the best close combat armies in the game, based around the incredible powers of a wolf lord + twc, or wolf lords hiding in fenrisian units.

 

 

I disagree with jeske. As far as regular mech goes, Wolves do it the best of the marine chapters. Sure, BA do land raiders better - so does codex SM and codex CSM: space wolves are terrible at LRs because of high cost termies, and because TWC are better. Sure, BA can play the las/plas razor spam game with good supporting units like baals. and they can move faster. they are also paying for the faster vehicles - and all you have to do is shoot them as they come in. Additionally, Space wolves get cheap razorback options from their elite slot, courtesy of 3 man wolfguard units with combi-meltas in razors. they also get to run the 2ML longfang units splitting fire out of a rhino in their heavy support slot. FA sees you running single typhoon speeders.

 

Sure, BA has their tricks like Mephhy, but in all honesty, - and im speaking with a lot of tournament experience against blood angels here - Space Wolves is a much more powerful codex.

 

 

 

 

fear not, the Fang still stands strong.

[eldaran]

The way i've seen it, there are

 

1. cheap (when taken as RAS squads) fast transports

 

they get into range of our guns faster. Seriously, we get, say, one turn of shooting with our long fangs - not a massive loss when you consider that they then come into our mid-and-short range firepower, which is where we really hurt in the shooting phase. it's at that range where melta, and especially plasma, wreck their transports; something we can get a lot of, courtesy of our grey hunters. then, if we want, we can jump into cc and attack them whilst denying FC bonuses.

 

Ultimately, we like the midfield. The only times i've had trouble is getting my guns into the midfield and persuading my opponent to do the same - i'm really not complaining when they do all the work for me :P

 

2. Assault squads

 

At first glance, it seems like they're better off - jump packs in troops, and the ability to get a discount if they take off their packs - bear in mind, however, that they are still essentially paying for the transport, just not directly, although how much depends on how much people reckon a jump pack is. They have a built-in squad sergeant, so can get 2 specials AND a sergeant with power fist, as well as in-built Ld9. They also have a 1 in 6 chance of getting FC naturally, and can get FNP and FC from a sanguinary priest (and it's better to have the priest sit in a razorback, away from the fight). However, this probably requires a second squad to do it - let's call it 1 full assault squad with power fist and 2 meltas in a Rhino for 250 points, a Sanguinary Priest for an extra 50, and a babysitter RAS squad of 5 assault marines in a las/plas razorback for a further 150 points. So this total combo costs 450 points (roughly a third of a 1,500 point army, and a significant chunk of even an 'ard boyz force)

 

By comparison, we get grey hunters. They're also scoring, get 2 attacks and 3 on the charge (in our case, on the counter charge as well, which we can also always depend on having and not have it down to the vagaries of fate/one model being 6" from a unit), the same load of 4's on our basic profile in the same places. We don't get in-built PF squad sergeants, but we can get them in and give them combi-meltas to make up slightly for the lack of 2 permanent meltas. we also have cheaper rhino hulls and can also take wargear that gives one model d6+1 attacks in cc (an average of 6 on the charge, or a whole new grey hunter WITH the possibility of scoring rending) and also that allows us to re-roll any 1's for one cc phase. And the biggy - we also get bolters. So we are essentially a cc squad with the ability to do some serious damage at range.

 

I'm going to take the 450 point budget i took with the BA and apply it to the wolves. 1 8-man Grey hunter squad with meltagun, mark and standard in a rhino costs 185 points. Add a wolf guard in with power fist for an extra 43 points. we've got an extra 250 points in that budget, so we could bulk out this with a Rune priest with one 10-point toy (a more expensive IC than the Sanguinary priest, but provides more 'direct' buffs) that can sit in the rhino with the Grey Hunters and a squad of 6 Long fangs with missile launchers OR we could get an extra 10-man Grey hunter squad with dual plasma, a power fist, MoTW and standard.

 

comparing the BA squad with our two options. the runic option has one less vehicle and one less model, less survivable and weaker on the charge, but heavily outshoots the blood angels and has an IC that can shred nearly anything that is put up against it, along with the ability to put them significantly out of joint (in terms of their special abilities, anyway) by denying them the charge. the hunter option has roughly equal firepower (they've got a longer range gun, but we pack more overall firepower in than them), but more models (which can really hurt the BA)

 

It's maybe an unfair comparison, but overall, i think we still have the more cost-efficient troops in our hunters.

 

3. More direct psychic powers.

 

I'll admit, i was a bit upset when i saw Sanguine Sword. That's pretty nasty, especially when combined with Epistolary and a force weapon. However, we have Jaws (always good for a laugh, especially when you oneshot Eldrad/Abbaddon/Mephiston/similar expensive IC because of it) Living Lightning (such a good power in the context of the wolves) Hurricane (good fun as a movement blocker) and Tempest (so good for shutting down whole army types). By comparison, the BA get powers that largely help them get into hitting range/hit better/hit harder. Now, it may be my eldar background talking, but buff powers beat out direct hitty powers any mday, because they enable one to do something that they couldn't do before, rather than just make them better at doing something that they couldn't already do.

 

4. Mephiston

 

yeah, we don't really have anything that can compare; doesn't mean we can't beat him - we have pretty good psychic defences, so we can weaken him that way. he can't really hide in FNP bubbles, since most of the weapons that reliably hurt him ignore FNP anyway (dual Plasma GH squads, anyone). we can hit him with a hidden hammer, hopefully wound him a few times and finish him off with lascannons/plasma guns/the kitchen sink.

 

Failing that, we can try jawsing him, and laugh when it works :P

 

 

 

By comparison, we get wolf scouts, which do better in their field than the comparative scouts, cavalry which everyone is rightly scared of (everyone else, because of what they can do, us because of the £ cost), wolf lords who can demolish every other IC in the book, cheaper termies with a better ability to perform their ideal role (tank-hunters) than BA termies, and our army is far more synergistic than the Angels, with a more internally balanced list, allowing fo multiple possible army designs.

 

I hope that's a fair comparison; if i've missed anything out, or got anything wrong, feel free to point it out ;)