Lithanial Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 One thing that is driving me up the wall when trying to build a list is where to place the HQ choice. for Librarians and Chaplains the options are pretty solid (Sternguard or Death company respectivly) But i am having great difficulty finding a squad for a Captain to go in which he will actually compliment without being too costly. He cant go in most basic squads due to the 10 man rhino limit, he's pointless in sternguard as he has no special shooting, vanguard would be the obvious choice except he prevents heroic intervention. Bikes would be an option but i see no need for him there. The best i can come up with is a command squad but spending that much on 5 guys i a bit dubious imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 Give him a Jump Pack and throw him in with a regular Assault Squad. He adds some higher initiative and punch to the squad and its cheaper than an Honor Guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattsama Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 A 9 man RAS in a Rhino isn't a bad choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Hiltraud Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 I had the same dilemma, in the end I just opted to lead my army with a Chaplain, but I was thinking why not put a Captain in with a regular assualt squad? Or a kitted out assault squad especially catered to accompany the Captain? I've been thinking about doing an all out elite type army and have the Captain in termie armour and accompany him with either the honour guard less jump packs and mounted in a land raider or with a small assault termie squad also accompanied with a sang priest in termie armour and mounted in a land raider? costly but fun to model and keeps the game interesting. :P Yours in Honour and Faith Chaplain Hiltraud Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ulkesh Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 I would add him to a 5 man RAS in a Razorback. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokunator Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 The reasons why the Captain is probably our weakest HQ choice have been discussed before (The Librarian with Unleash Rage and Shield of Sanguinius is a better force multiplier with assaulters and has a free Power Weapon but weaker stats for the same price, the Reclusiarch has nearly the same stats, a free Power Weapon and two excellent support rules for only 30 points more). Using him with an Assault squad or similar unit therefore doesn't quite have the same bang for your bucks as one of the other two HQs. If you really want to run one, I'd go for a Jump Pack Captain with Meltabombs and a pair of Lightning Claws to maximise his close combat killing power. Run him with Jump Packers and he will do fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wookielips Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 if you had the points and wanted to try him out, why not save as many as you can, and attach a LC-captain to a unit of chappie+DC? he's cheaper than a reclusiarch, he'd re-roll hits (along with the chappie) on the charge, and his LC would allow him to re-roll wounds with the DC. could be a VERY killy unit. if you had the points, put them in a LRR or LRC, stuff it full, get a few PWs, and double charge out of it. with those 2 guys + DC, you will MAUL anything you charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redo Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 Yeah if you really want to use a captain, as I sincerely believe that there are way beeter choices for our HQ slots, then I would equip him with a JP and run him with either; his honour guard an assault squad or Sang. Guard I would equip him with 2 lightning claws, though his added BS makes him a better shooter, so perhaps a power weapon and a infernus pistol would be good as long. As he is in FC range, he should do some damage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Hiltraud Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 I may be wrong and have probably misread the codex but I didn't think the Captain could be fielded with twin lightning claws unless wearing termie armour?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redo Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 I may be wrong and have probably misread the codex but I didn't think the Captain could be fielded with twin lightning claws unless wearing termie armour?? Yeah he can, p84. "Replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword...with a lightning claw." You replace BP with LC and then Chainsowrd with LC and you have a pair of LC's for 30 points. Pretty much same or exactly the same as marine codex. Just on a side note; I cannot remember using a captain in normal games since 2nd Edition. I do not even have a suitable model apart from Dante and guess the OP is wanting to use the captain for fluff reasons...not competitive reasons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 If I took a captain (and I did for a while with the new dex before swapping to a reclusiarch) I would give him an Honor Guard everytime. Entirely for fluff reasons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_Beck Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 also good is to do cpt+honor guard with: (prety costy thou, use to against tanks or big bad guys) CPT: PW+IF+JP HG: 4*MG/PG+JP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wookielips Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 I may be wrong and have probably misread the codex but I didn't think the Captain could be fielded with twin lightning claws unless wearing termie armour?? Yeah he can, p84. "Replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword...with a lightning claw." You replace BP with LC and then Chainsowrd with LC and you have a pair of LC's for 30 points. Pretty much same or exactly the same as marine codex. Just on a side note; I cannot remember using a captain in normal games since 2nd Edition. I do not even have a suitable model apart from Dante and guess the OP is wanting to use the captain for fluff reasons...not competitive reasons. 1. Your points costs on the 2x LC is wrong. 2. You aren't supposed to post specific costs, is my understanding. suffice to say that a 2xLC captain is a pretty good HQ unit when attached to something that will suppliment him and give him ablative wounds, and a good value points wise. He's got good punch, but doesn't have the buff to the army that other HQ provide. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 You aren't supposed to post specific point costs, but IIRC you can say "the cost of a plasma pistol and a power weapon," or "A meltabomb on top of a powerfist." How is his point cost on the 2xLC wrong, wookielips? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2426923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wookielips Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 You aren't supposed to post specific point costs, but IIRC you can say "the cost of a plasma pistol and a power weapon," or "A meltabomb on top of a powerfist."How is his point cost on the 2xLC wrong, wookielips? a LC is 10 points per for a captain. cheapest upgraded claws in 40k, behind the 15 for a VV sgt, that i can recall. thusly making the 2x LC captain a viable cheap choice to wreck shop with a squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2427055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Pickens Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 I think the answer here is ... dont. Just dont run a captain. Ward decided our captains should be too limited in what they can bring to the list, so not using them seems to be the proper response. Captains are force multipliers in a SM army. In a BA army the Reclusiarch and Libbys are our only force multipliers in the HQ section, making our poor unartificer armored captains pretty much worthless. Heck, if you really want a fun little fighty HQ, just buy the Sanguinor and game it so his only choices for upgrades are an assault terminator sgt. or a vanguard sgt. and voila! cheap little fighty HQ that can do basically anything a captain can do, minus the 100 pts, plus you still have sanguinor to play with... I honestly will never run a captain under the current codex. Its pointless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2427074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 wookielips, my copy of codex BA has lightning claws being more than the 10 points you suggest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2427087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wookielips Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 i checked my codex before posting, it shows 10 points. something is amiss in the lands of the sanguine....... edit just re-re-read it. im dumb. its 15. i thought that made the captain SOMEWHAT cool. nope. listen to slim pickens. dont do it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2427285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithanial Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 Think you guys are all missing a trick with the Captain - they make excellent character killers. At WS 6 they will be hitting other HQ choices more reliably and they have access to enough weaponry to be doing a good amount of damage. This is one of the reasons i would never take a Librarian as my primary HQ - with low I and no invulnerable save they will die the instant they see assault. Further the Captain is twice as effective as a Chaplain against an HQ in any round of assault after the first - and while the Chaplain makes the rest of his squad half again as effective on the charge, this has little benefit unless the squad has a fair amount of equipment - further increasing the cost difference between the two. For instance, a Captain in a command squad with 2 LC will score 3.5 wounding hits on the charge and 2.5 per subsequent round against an opposing HQ while the Chaplain will only score 3 on the charge and a measly 1.25 per round afterwards. On the charge the Chaplains squad re-rolls make up the difference but afterwards at least a Company Champion is needed to make up the difference. Sure if you tool up the squad then the Chaplain can pull off stronger charges and is down right brutal if you have a squad of DC; but as a cheaper alternative that does not lose most of it's effectiveness if charged then the Captain comes out on top - especially in smaller squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2427607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest33 Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Reclusiarch and a squad of RAS = Awesome on the assault tho. Re-rolling that many hits on the first charge is nuts and if you set it up so that your pw/pf sarg is base to base with their hq you can take out a hq with little trouble in the first round of combat, no need for a costly point sink in the Captain. The times I've used a captain have been as another member of a smaller assault squad with twin lc's to boost their combat capabilitys to respectable levels. (eg. 5 man ras with one melta, sarge with pw/inferno and captain with twin lcs, the unit can pop and assault transports rather well or take out tougher infantry. Whilst my Reclusiarch's unit takes out any foot slogging/objective holding units.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2427704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Pickens Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Think you guys are all missing a trick with the Captain - they make excellent character killers. Um... I think you are missing the trick of Mephiston! Who needs a Captain to kill characters? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2427727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithanial Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 I see your Mephiston and raise you some Runes of Warding. If i was going to take a special HQ it would be Astorath for the increased red thirst on my squads. Do try to stay on topic though. A Reclusiarch on a RAS really is not all that good. at a base 30 attacks they will do 7.5 wounds against MEQ or 11.25 with chaplain or in kills you will take down 1.25 more MEQ; hardly impressive compared to what he can do when attached to a DC. As a general rule, the more tooled up the squad the better the Chaplain becomes but that becomes a fast way to create expensive death stars. With the captain you can keep units small, cheap and effective - without having to pull out the death company all the time. Think i am settling on the following: Captain w/ Twin Lightning Claws. [130] Honour Guard w/ Chapter Banner & Thunder Hammer. [175] Razorback [55] Total [360 points] This gives a solid centre point for my Tac's along with a nasty HQ killing punch. Either the captain kills them with his lightning claws or the thunder hammer takes down the really big stuff while they are likely to direct attacks against the Captain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2427766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firedrake28 Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Think you guys are all missing a trick with the Captain - they make excellent character killers. Um... I think you are missing the trick of Mephiston! Who needs a Captain to kill characters? Mephiston costs as much as two and a half upgraded Captains, though. That and he has a gigantic bulls-eye on his forehead which makes people all kinds of scared of the guy and they'll go to great lengths to make him dead. I don't think Captains are very good character killers, though. I mean, sure, he has a good WS but he has no real way to cause Instant Death to anybody and is just as vulnerable to it as a Reclusiarch. Captains can probably defeat a good number of other characters over the course of several combat rounds, but a lot of the time he'll end up getting ganked by a power fist or something before that happens. In my opinion, if you're going to run a Captain, just give him a single lightning claw plus a jump pack (unless he's going to be riding in a transport of some sort). Two lightning claws really isn't terribly worthwhile for the amount of extra points you spend for a single extra Attack. Much better to just rely on the charge and the Captain's high WS to grant you enough hits to cause some serious damage. Assaulting Captain with pistol and power weapon vs MEQs Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™) ----------------------------- Attackers Captain with pistol and power weapon Attacks: 4 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2.667 Wound Chance: 50% Wounds: 1.333 Unsaved Wounds: 1.333 Models Killed: 1.333 Options: Ignore Armour, Hit On 3, Wound On 4 ----------------------------- Defenders MEQs Hits: 2.667 Wounds: 1.333 Wounds Lost: 1.333 Models Lost: 1.333 / 10 (13.3%) Kills in I order: I:5 1.333 Assaulting Captain with single lightning claw vs MEQs ----------------------------- Attackers Captain with single lightning claw Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 75% Wounds: 1.5 Unsaved Wounds: 1.5 Models Killed: 1.5 Options: Reroll Wound, Ignore Armour, Hit On 3, Wound On 4 ----------------------------- Defenders MEQs Hits: 2 Wounds: 1.5 Wounds Lost: 1.5 Models Lost: 1.5 / 10 (15%) Kills in I order: I:5 1.5 ----------------------------- Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™) As you can see, the single lightning claw is slightly better than a power weapon and costs the same number of points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2427768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithanial Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 Indeed the pistol can be good since you can always gain an extra attack through the chapter banner. Indeed a plasma pistol shot from the captain does 0.69 MEQ kills a shot vs the extra claw attack doing 0.5, but when you factor in the fact that the claws can get that extra attack per round then you can double it's kill rate, which makes it superior. As an aside a Storm bolter on a captain will kill 0.27 and on a marine 0.22 for a lot less cost. 5 Storm bolters for the same cost will kill 60% more and at a longer range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2427788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firedrake28 Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Indeed the pistol can be good since you can always gain an extra attack through the chapter banner. Indeed a plasma pistol shot from the captain does 0.69 MEQ kills a shot vs the extra claw attack doing 0.5, but when you factor in the fact that the claws can get that extra attack per round then you can double it's kill rate, which makes it superior. Err, not exactly. You're still paying 15 additional points for one extra Attack. Some people might think that's worth it - I personally don't. For that matter, I don't exactly rate the plasma pistol (or storm bolter) either. It's more efficient to just spend less points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203540-which-unit-to-attach-a-captain-to/#findComment-2427874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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