Which unit to attach a Captain to?

[Lithanial]

One thing that is driving me up the wall when trying to build a list is where to place the HQ choice. for Librarians and Chaplains the options are pretty solid (Sternguard or Death company respectivly) But i am having great difficulty finding a squad for a Captain to go in which he will actually compliment without being too costly.

 

He cant go in most basic squads due to the 10 man rhino limit, he's pointless in sternguard as he has no special shooting, vanguard would be the obvious choice except he prevents heroic intervention. Bikes would be an option but i see no need for him there.

 

The best i can come up with is a command squad but spending that much on 5 guys i a bit dubious imo.

[Vash113]

Give him a Jump Pack and throw him in with a regular Assault Squad. He adds some higher initiative and punch to the squad and its cheaper than an Honor Guard.

[Mattsama]

A 9 man RAS in a Rhino isn't a bad choice.

[Chaplain Hiltraud]

I had the same dilemma, in the end I just opted to lead my army with a Chaplain, but I was thinking why not put a Captain in with a regular assualt squad? Or a kitted out assault squad especially catered to accompany the Captain?

I've been thinking about doing an all out elite type army and have the Captain in termie armour and accompany him with either the honour guard less jump packs and mounted in a land raider or with a small assault termie squad also accompanied with a sang priest in termie armour and mounted in a land raider? costly but fun to model and keeps the game interesting. :P

 

Yours in Honour and Faith

Chaplain Hiltraud

[Brother Ulkesh]

I would add him to a 5 man RAS in a Razorback.

[Tokunator]

The reasons why the Captain is probably our weakest HQ choice have been discussed before (The Librarian with Unleash Rage and Shield of Sanguinius is a better force multiplier with assaulters and has a free Power Weapon but weaker stats for the same price, the Reclusiarch has nearly the same stats, a free Power Weapon and two excellent support rules for only 30 points more). Using him with an Assault squad or similar unit therefore doesn't quite have the same bang for your bucks as one of the other two HQs.

 

If you really want to run one, I'd go for a Jump Pack Captain with Meltabombs and a pair of Lightning Claws to maximise his close combat killing power. Run him with Jump Packers and he will do fine.

[wookielips]

if you had the points and wanted to try him out, why not save as many as you can, and attach a LC-captain to a unit of chappie+DC? he's cheaper than a reclusiarch, he'd re-roll hits (along with the chappie) on the charge, and his LC would allow him to re-roll wounds with the DC.

 

could be a VERY killy unit. if you had the points, put them in a LRR or LRC, stuff it full, get a few PWs, and double charge out of it. with those 2 guys + DC, you will MAUL anything you charge.

[Redo]

Yeah if you really want to use a captain, as I sincerely believe that there are way beeter choices for our HQ slots, then I would equip him with a JP and run him with either;

his honour guard

an assault squad

or Sang. Guard

 

I would equip him with 2 lightning claws, though his added BS makes him a better shooter, so perhaps a power weapon and a infernus pistol would be good as long. As he is in FC range, he should do some damage.

[Chaplain Hiltraud]

I may be wrong and have probably misread the codex but I didn't think the Captain could be fielded with twin lightning claws unless wearing termie armour??

[Redo]

I may be wrong and have probably misread the codex but I didn't think the Captain could be fielded with twin lightning claws unless wearing termie armour??

 

Yeah he can, p84. "Replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword...with a lightning claw." You replace BP with LC and then Chainsowrd with LC and you have a pair of LC's for 30 points.

 

Pretty much same or exactly the same as marine codex.

 

Just on a side note; I cannot remember using a captain in normal games since 2nd Edition. I do not even have a suitable model apart from Dante and guess the OP is wanting to use the captain for fluff reasons...not competitive reasons.

[JamesI]

If I took a captain (and I did for a while with the new dex before swapping to a reclusiarch) I would give him an Honor Guard everytime. Entirely for fluff reasons.

[Andrew_Beck]

also good is to do cpt+honor guard with:

(prety costy thou, use to against tanks or big bad guys)

 

CPT: PW+IF+JP

HG: 4*MG/PG+JP

[wookielips]

I may be wrong and have probably misread the codex but I didn't think the Captain could be fielded with twin lightning claws unless wearing termie armour??

 

Yeah he can, p84. "Replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword...with a lightning claw." You replace BP with LC and then Chainsowrd with LC and you have a pair of LC's for 30 points.

 

Pretty much same or exactly the same as marine codex.

 

Just on a side note; I cannot remember using a captain in normal games since 2nd Edition. I do not even have a suitable model apart from Dante and guess the OP is wanting to use the captain for fluff reasons...not competitive reasons.

 

1. Your points costs on the 2x LC is wrong.

 

2. You aren't supposed to post specific costs, is my understanding.

 

suffice to say that a 2xLC captain is a pretty good HQ unit when attached to something that will suppliment him and give him ablative wounds, and a good value points wise. He's got good punch, but doesn't have the buff to the army that other HQ provide.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

You aren't supposed to post specific point costs, but IIRC you can say "the cost of a plasma pistol and a power weapon," or "A meltabomb on top of a powerfist."

How is his point cost on the 2xLC wrong, wookielips?

[wookielips]

You aren't supposed to post specific point costs, but IIRC you can say "the cost of a plasma pistol and a power weapon," or "A meltabomb on top of a powerfist."

How is his point cost on the 2xLC wrong, wookielips?

 

a LC is 10 points per for a captain. cheapest upgraded claws in 40k, behind the 15 for a VV sgt, that i can recall. thusly making the 2x LC captain a viable cheap choice to wreck shop with a squad.

[Slim Pickens]

I think the answer here is ... dont.

 

Just dont run a captain.

 

Ward decided our captains should be too limited in what they can bring to the list, so not using them seems to be the proper response.

 

Captains are force multipliers in a SM army. In a BA army the Reclusiarch and Libbys are our only force multipliers in the HQ section, making our poor unartificer armored captains pretty much worthless. Heck, if you really want a fun little fighty HQ, just buy the Sanguinor and game it so his only choices for upgrades are an assault terminator sgt. or a vanguard sgt. and voila! cheap little fighty HQ that can do basically anything a captain can do, minus the 100 pts, plus you still have sanguinor to play with...

 

I honestly will never run a captain under the current codex. Its pointless.

[JamesI]

wookielips, my copy of codex BA has lightning claws being more than the 10 points you suggest.

[wookielips]

i checked my codex before posting, it shows 10 points. something is amiss in the lands of the sanguine.......

 

edit just re-re-read it. im dumb. its 15. i thought that made the captain SOMEWHAT cool. nope.

 

listen to slim pickens. dont do it.

[Lithanial]

Think you guys are all missing a trick with the Captain - they make excellent character killers. At WS 6 they will be hitting other HQ choices more reliably and they have access to enough weaponry to be doing a good amount of damage. This is one of the reasons i would never take a Librarian as my primary HQ - with low I and no invulnerable save they will die the instant they see assault.

 

Further the Captain is twice as effective as a Chaplain against an HQ in any round of assault after the first - and while the Chaplain makes the rest of his squad half again as effective on the charge, this has little benefit unless the squad has a fair amount of equipment - further increasing the cost difference between the two.

 

For instance, a Captain in a command squad with 2 LC will score 3.5 wounding hits on the charge and 2.5 per subsequent round against an opposing HQ while the Chaplain will only score 3 on the charge and a measly 1.25 per round afterwards. On the charge the Chaplains squad re-rolls make up the difference but afterwards at least a Company Champion is needed to make up the difference.

 

Sure if you tool up the squad then the Chaplain can pull off stronger charges and is down right brutal if you have a squad of DC; but as a cheaper alternative that does not lose most of it's effectiveness if charged then the Captain comes out on top - especially in smaller squads.

[Priest33]

Reclusiarch and a squad of RAS = Awesome on the assault tho. Re-rolling that many hits on the first charge is nuts and if you set it up so that your pw/pf sarg is base to base with their hq you can take out a hq with little trouble in the first round of combat, no need for a costly point sink in the Captain.

 

The times I've used a captain have been as another member of a smaller assault squad with twin lc's to boost their combat capabilitys to respectable levels. (eg. 5 man ras with one melta, sarge with pw/inferno and captain with twin lcs, the unit can pop and assault transports rather well or take out tougher infantry. Whilst my Reclusiarch's unit takes out any foot slogging/objective holding units.)

[Slim Pickens]

Think you guys are all missing a trick with the Captain - they make excellent character killers.

 

 

Um... I think you are missing the trick of Mephiston! Who needs a Captain to kill characters?

[Lithanial]

I see your Mephiston and raise you some Runes of Warding. If i was going to take a special HQ it would be Astorath for the increased red thirst on my squads. Do try to stay on topic though.

 

A Reclusiarch on a RAS really is not all that good. at a base 30 attacks they will do 7.5 wounds against MEQ or 11.25 with chaplain or in kills you will take down 1.25 more MEQ; hardly impressive compared to what he can do when attached to a DC. As a general rule, the more tooled up the squad the better the Chaplain becomes but that becomes a fast way to create expensive death stars.

 

With the captain you can keep units small, cheap and effective - without having to pull out the death company all the time.

 

Think i am settling on the following:

 

Captain w/ Twin Lightning Claws. [130]

Honour Guard w/ Chapter Banner & Thunder Hammer. [175]

Razorback [55]

 

Total [360 points]

 

This gives a solid centre point for my Tac's along with a nasty HQ killing punch. Either the captain kills them with his lightning claws or the thunder hammer takes down the really big stuff while they are likely to direct attacks against the Captain.

[Firedrake28]

Think you guys are all missing a trick with the Captain - they make excellent character killers.

 

 

Um... I think you are missing the trick of Mephiston! Who needs a Captain to kill characters?

 

Mephiston costs as much as two and a half upgraded Captains, though. That and he has a gigantic bulls-eye on his forehead which makes people all kinds of scared of the guy and they'll go to great lengths to make him dead.

 

I don't think Captains are very good character killers, though. I mean, sure, he has a good WS but he has no real way to cause Instant Death to anybody and is just as vulnerable to it as a Reclusiarch. Captains can probably defeat a good number of other characters over the course of several combat rounds, but a lot of the time he'll end up getting ganked by a power fist or something before that happens.

 

In my opinion, if you're going to run a Captain, just give him a single lightning claw plus a jump pack (unless he's going to be riding in a transport of some sort). Two lightning claws really isn't terribly worthwhile for the amount of extra points you spend for a single extra Attack. Much better to just rely on the charge and the Captain's high WS to grant you enough hits to cause some serious damage.

 

 

Assaulting

 

Captain with pistol and power weapon vs MEQs

 

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

 

-----------------------------

 

Attackers

 

Captain with pistol and power weapon

Attacks: 4

Hit Chance: 66.67%

Hits: 2.667

Wound Chance: 50%

Wounds: 1.333

Unsaved Wounds: 1.333

Models Killed: 1.333

Options: Ignore Armour, Hit On 3, Wound On 4

 

-----------------------------

 

Defenders

 

MEQs

Hits: 2.667

Wounds: 1.333

Wounds Lost: 1.333

Models Lost: 1.333 / 10 (13.3%)

Kills in I order:

I:5 1.333

 

 

 

Assaulting

 

Captain with single lightning claw vs MEQs

 

-----------------------------

 

Attackers

 

Captain with single lightning claw

Attacks: 3

Hit Chance: 66.67%

Hits: 2

Wound Chance: 75%

Wounds: 1.5

Unsaved Wounds: 1.5

Models Killed: 1.5

Options: Reroll Wound, Ignore Armour, Hit On 3, Wound On 4

 

-----------------------------

 

Defenders

 

MEQs

Hits: 2

Wounds: 1.5

Wounds Lost: 1.5

Models Lost: 1.5 / 10 (15%)

Kills in I order:

I:5 1.5

 

 

-----------------------------

Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

 

As you can see, the single lightning claw is slightly better than a power weapon and costs the same number of points.

[Lithanial]

Indeed the pistol can be good since you can always gain an extra attack through the chapter banner. Indeed a plasma pistol shot from the captain does 0.69 MEQ kills a shot vs the extra claw attack doing 0.5, but when you factor in the fact that the claws can get that extra attack per round then you can double it's kill rate, which makes it superior.

 

As an aside a Storm bolter on a captain will kill 0.27 and on a marine 0.22 for a lot less cost. 5 Storm bolters for the same cost will kill 60% more and at a longer range.

[Firedrake28]

Indeed the pistol can be good since you can always gain an extra attack through the chapter banner. Indeed a plasma pistol shot from the captain does 0.69 MEQ kills a shot vs the extra claw attack doing 0.5, but when you factor in the fact that the claws can get that extra attack per round then you can double it's kill rate, which makes it superior.

 

Err, not exactly. You're still paying 15 additional points for one extra Attack. Some people might think that's worth it - I personally don't. For that matter, I don't exactly rate the plasma pistol (or storm bolter) either. It's more efficient to just spend less points.