Grand Master vs Brother Captain...

[Inquisitor Fox]

And also INP, that's because brets are cheating filth with their "lance formations" bah, cheating and dont get me started on the rest! *goes off to have a rant about DoC and his sub par WoC*

Cheat? Nonsense! It's not my fault all other armored cavalry units are sub-par... them's fightin' words!

 

Although units of Dwarven Ironbreakers and Saurus Warriors still give me shudders.. against most units of infantry I can engage with 1:2 odds (even unit strength) and have no problems.. those things I have to engage with closer to 1:1 odds. The best way to deal with Dwarven Ironbreakers is to leave them holding a table edge! The number of times I've lost 400 or 500 points of a command lance with two heros and escorts to a single artillery piece at the first turn of the game... guh. That's why I don't field Grail Knights... big fancy red mist after they come into target of every enemy artillery piece on the board. The blessing is wonderful, but it isn't perfect B)

 

The GKGM definately has his uses against single nasty foes, as you're correctly stating! In terms of point for point though, I think the GKBC with additional retinue might have more generic effect.

[skarn]

Firstly, Zode is absolutely correct. Super-assaulters like Mephiston should NOT be dealt with by assaulting! They need to be shot down.

Except that a GM and retinue, if armed with a psychic hood, can reliably take Mephy down. More importantly they are a legitimate threat to him and so influence what the BA player does with him. Same for hive tyrants and other similar things.

 

Since that is the only way to combat them, and since the GM isn't any help at all (because he can't stick them with his FW before he's going to absorb at least a wound or two), there really isn't any reason at all to ever take the GM.

I usually run a GM and 4 man retinue and instagibbed plenty of HT, Avatars etc.

 

Either the unit you attack with your HQ retinue (led by a GM or Stern or a lowly BC) can be handled just fine with all the extra attacks and wounds you'll be generating with the cheap BC option, or it'll be so good that the GM's only significant advantage (the slightly superior initiative) is abslutely meaningless.

And again, they are a significant amount of enemies with a I of 5 or more who either don't inflict instant death or don't have the attacks to wipe out the whole retinue. Even things like plasma shots can be absorbed by the GM without losing combat effectiveness.

 

It's not like the GM's force weapon is actually required to take down any Tyranid monstrous creature. An extra 3 or 4 melee attacks hitting it is all that you need ... and you get that with the cheaper BC package. Not to mention you're much more likely to survive to get any attacks in on the likes of the Swarmlord with the BC package. If the Swarmlord is up against a GM and a smaller retinue (because of points restrictions), it's much more likely to wipe the unit out than if it faced the BC package.

Most DH players I've seen run 5 man GKT squads, regardless of GM or BC.

[number6]

Most DH players I've seen run 5 man GKT squads, regardless of GM or BC.

That may be true, but unless you spend equal points on the unit builds in question, you're comparing apples to oranges.

 

My points are taken purely on an apples to apples comparison. I'm not talking about a 5-model HQ unit, one led by a GM and one led by a BC. I'm talking about two HQ units with the same points expenditures, one led by a BC and one led by a GM.

 

You seem to keep talking about same-sized units and comparing them. Well, sure, given the same retinue of 4 GKTs, all of us would prefer the GM to the BC. :devil: But that isn't the issue at stake here. At least, I didn't think it was!

[Daedalus Templarius]

Hmm,

Grandmaster, or BC + a TLLC on a razorback and a melta on an assault squad.

 

I'll figure it out I guess.

[skarn]

Most DH players I've seen run 5 man GKT squads, regardless of GM or BC.

That may be true, but unless you spend equal points on the unit builds in question, you're comparing apples to oranges.

 

My points are taken purely on an apples to apples comparison. I'm not talking about a 5-model HQ unit, one led by a GM and one led by a BC. I'm talking about two HQ units with the same points expenditures, one led by a BC and one led by a GM.

 

You seem to keep talking about same-sized units and comparing them. Well, sure, given the same retinue of 4 GKTs, all of us would prefer the GM to the BC. :ph34r: But that isn't the issue at stake here. At least, I didn't think it was!

Oh no, you are right, the BC is simply more cost effective. However, the GM does offer a threat magnification to the GKT that changes how the opponent reacts to them. That's my only point really. I've seen and done it hundreds of times over the last 7 years. The GK have few options, and the whilst the GM himself is not overcosted too badly the rest of the army is. So I pretty much concede to your points, except that the GM does have a use in the army, depending on the context of the rest of the army.

 

it will be interesting to see what happens to him in the new book. My guess is that the GM will disappear (except maybe as a SC), the BC will be beefed up and Stern will either be a monster.

[Daedalus Templarius]

I think I said on Dakka that I hope they make the GKGM equal to Mephistron, or the Sanguinator. These guys have been fighting greater daemons for millennia y'know!

 

BC and Stern should definitely go up several notches on the power scale. I'd say a BC on par with a captain statline and Stern a bit above that.

[Oiad]

Nah, that would be silly logic. All Chapter leaders have been fighting some sort of xeno scum for quite a while so it works out well in the experience-stakes. Besides, for gaming purposes you need to keep default MEQ HQs cheaper than 275pts. The GM will most likely be around 100 points less that either Mephiston or the Sanguinor IMO but 50pts ish more than a Chapter Master.

 

However, that shouldn't neglect the idea that GK special characters won't be powerhouses. News on Stern has been weird. There have been rumours suggesting he'll be a powerhouse unit and some saying he's dead. BOLS even suggested both in the same set of rumours! Unless they take his narrative in a really radical direction I hope and guess they'll keep Stern in his niche between the BC and GM. 7eAL's =][= Codex project is spot on by saying Stern would act best as a BC upgrade. Hopwfully GW will take some inspiration from there.

 

Educated guessing says they'll releases several characters. Hopefully most of these won't be Inquisitors because as cool as they are in fluff, they suck in practice. Knowing our luck GW will likely go ahead and waste our GK SC potential on overrated, uber Inquisitors, great aginst daemons but rubbish against anything else... ...Fingers crossed they'll bring out a wealthy mix of a few affordable GK SCs and a few 250pt+ slayers too.

[Daedalus Templarius]

I don't know if Stern now occupies a niche between BC and GM since he is 4 points cheaper than a GM, and besides the reroll per phase, not really any better than a GM.

[Oiad]

Kinda the point. He's cheaper but not as well-complimented with his profile as a GM and more expensive yet more able than a BC. A small difference in points, true but he does come with a couple of powers and extra items which would booster the base price. But that is part of the main problem with most MEQ characters - no flexible options.

 

Stern identifies a niche because I imagine that a lot of GK players want an extra ranking in the next codex which offers the offensive capability (FW & I5) while being (slightly) more cost effective than a GM. This thread proves it in a way. GW possibly constructed Stern in this way with mindful precision. Hopefully GW will add an extra rank in between BC and GM. Some around here may agree. I know the idea was met with positivity in the project previously noted.