Spearhead and practical experience

[Requiem of the Wolf]

And I have to say...The whole concept is great in practice...but when you actually put it on the table,For one of the two players it ends up being similar to attempting to perform :cuss on a rusty chainsaw. Tonight there was a 1500 pt spearhead. I put a Squad of Greyhunters into a Land Raider,it was set up to outflank for 60 points. I put a Hvyflamer/MM Dread to infiltrate for another 60. I set up a Thunderwolf Lord,a Rune Priest with Living Lightning,a Squad of 6 man sniper rifle scouts with a heavy bolter,and a squad of Long Fangs with Lascannons and Missile Launchers. Fairly Balanced,given the special rules for Spearhead and the fact that the FOC goes right out the window,every unit is scoring..so on and so forth.

 

I set my Lord in cover on one side of the board,my long fangs and rune priest on the other,the lord out of sight,the LF and RP in wooded cover.Since I knew I wasnt going first. The dread and the scouts get deployed on my opponents side of the board,good fields of fire..Im feeling pretty good about this. My opponent is playing Orks..So I was expecting a large army,lots of shots,and a pretty hard fight. What I got was treated like a schoolgirl at a Hentai Convention.

 

So my opponent rolls onto my side of the board with a pair of Deathroller battlewagons,Rolls over my long fangs and inflicts a total of 19 S10 hits. Dead longfangs. Then 6 nobs jump out,and kill my Rune priest. 5 Deffcopta's pop out,Turbo boost over,and using their spearhead rule,get to blast my Dreadnaught into a immobilized scrap,then charge it in hth. Meanwhile..9 Kans that had infiltrate get to walk up and blast my scout pack.

 

Total casualties for my side. Everyone but two scouts,and my wolf Lord,with a immobile dread missing his CC arm. I killed a Nob. Then it was my turn to actually get to move my guys.Yeah...I lost 800 points of my Army before I got to move. On comes the Land raider with the pack of GH's. My wolf Lord runs at the vehicles with the nob pack. my dreadnaught waves ineffectually at the deffkoptas. My scouts,turn around and in the only decent rolls the entire game,get two rending hits that blow up one kan and wreck another. Wolf Lord manages to shake one of the vehicles.Land Raider gets two lascannon shots.Both hit...both Pen on the Kans...Both get shaken,which gets ignored.

 

Turn 2. Painboy and Nobz pile out of vehicle and charge lord. Deffkoptas continue trying to beat on dread,who manages to do absolutely nothing the rest of the game until he is destroyed. Kans meanwhile open up,and blast apart the other two scouts. Wolf lord loses his two wolves with him,and then begins the slow process of failing to kill anyone.

 

Next 4 turns involve the Land raider managing to blow up one kan,and otherwise either missing,or inflicting wounds that are ignored on the rest of the kans. The deffkoptas finally at turn 6 destroy the Dreadnaught. The Wolf Lord kills absolutely nothing and is finally ground down.

 

Turn 7 ends with the Land raider,having managed to kill one more nob in the last round. And by the time the game is over,I have garnered not a single kill point. My opponent has 4 squads and two vehicles in my deployment zone (Victory condition) and so I lose 6-0. If it would have gone to kill points it would have equaled 5-0.

 

Not because my list was faulty. It was relatively balanced. Not because my deployment was faulty. Not because my tactics and target priority was faulty. Simply because I went second. This was the second game of the evening.

 

First game of the Evening,I played a fellow Space Wolf. I went first,I wiped out 3 vindicators that had infiltrated,Long fangs shot and killed half a grey hunter squad,Wolf lord charged and finished it off,scouts shot and killed 2 of 6 wolfguard. The game went downhill from there for my opponent. I didn't have fun,he didn't have fun. He had amazing luck with the dice so was able to draw it out,but he never had the chance to recover from losing half of his force on turn one.

His playing was spot on,he did the best he could under the circumstances...it just didn't matter when half of his army went boom.

 

Simply put...I think Spearhead is the stupidest Idea Games Workshop has ever done. It doesn't matter how you play...If you go second...you lose unless your opponent actually manages to fall asleep from boredom midway through the first turn and thus you get to keep a decent part of your army.

 

Has anyone had a decent game using spearhead so far? Anyone at all had a game where it wasn't determined by who went first?

[Skalver]

I don't think it is realistic to expect a fun spearhead game when you have one side with a ton of vehicles vs one with two. Spearhead is designed for lots of tanks vs lots of tanks. At 1500 points you also have the issue that the game is just a bit small. Games with a couple of expensive units are very vulnerable to lucky dice rolls as the relative setback encountered from losing a 500 point unit in a 1500 points game is pretty much unrecoverable. Not to mention that with only one or two spearheads per side the individual spearhead rules become much more powerful. Getting a special rule for some of your vehicles is only really going to be balanced if it only applies to a small subset of your force. When the same rule applies to more than half the vehicles in your army it will tend to have an exaggerated effect.

 

Saying spearhead sucks because it doesn't work at 1500 points is akin to saying apocalypse sucks because it doesn't work at 1500 points. It just isn't balanced around working on that scale. Now maybe you have limited options with regards to tanks but bringing just two vehicles to a spearhead game seems a bit daft anyway. The whole point of spearhead is to pit lots of tanks vs lots of tanks and I suspect you are not going to have fun games unless both players choose heavy mech forces. You used what is basically a foot slogging SW army with a lot of anti-tank infantry in a spearhead game and it wasn't fun? Why on earth would you find that surprising?

 

If in the kind of scale you are playing you are finding the first turn tends to give too much advantage then change up the rules a little. Maybe use the night-fighting special rule for the first turn or restrict the force comps a little. Make at least 50% of points must be spent on spearhead detatchments for example. Mostly though I would say get up to 2.5k+ points and play more in the spirit of the game. Bring a ton of vehicles not just a token one or two. Mostly infantry vs mostly tanks is rarely a fun game at the best of times, throw in a ton of rules to make tanks even stronger and that is even less likely to work in spearhead.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

sounds like you castled in a corner where the opponent can outflank you if i read correctly. failure to deploy correctly seems to have cost the game in this instance.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Actually with similar lists in normal games I have ZERO trouble dealing with Mechanized lists. It isn't a foot slogging army,It uses some foot troops yes..But those are all foot troops that either CANT be in vehicles,or its pointless to put them in vehicles if you are able to set them up to do their job.And as far as it goes,I did spend about 50% of my points on Spearhead units. Mechanized Assault and Ambush. Now I don't have a large amount of Vehicles, that is true. But that isn't the point. As I said,the first game played,I went first and ripped through a fairly full mech list with almost no pause whatsoever.

 

Now...It might very well be that 1500 is too small to do it. It may be that you need to field 15 predators or whatever...just to make the game fun.

 

The Idea that there is only one type of list that will make a game fun is pretty conclusive proof that they didn't do that good a job at it. So you think that If I put 12 Autocannon/Lascannon Predators as my list,That would somehow make it more fun? How about 5 Land Raiders with Multimeltas and extra goodies outflanking. Would that make it fun?

 

 

Hmmm...4 Land Raiders with Multi meltas,4 Iron Priests with Saga of the Iron Wolf and 3 servitors. Think that would end up being a fun list to play with or against? 13-15 inch movement,repair one damage result that isn't wrecked every shooting phase for each of them on a roll of 1+? One spearhead,moving 7-9 inches and shooting 8 lascannons and 4 multimeltas a turn.

 

Originally when the Store Owner presented the tournament,it was 1500 pts,with a max of 500 spent on the spearhead. That probably would have made for a relatively decent game,not much changed from the normal but with a new twist on things. So far..I have seen no evidence that Spearhead is going to result in a fun game for both involved.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

sounds like you castled in a corner where the opponent can outflank you if i read correctly. failure to deploy correctly seems to have cost the game in this instance.

Well..I put my Long fangs in cover. That is pretty close to standard operating procedure with them. So If i would have put them in open ground,the Death roller might not have been able to reach them,though the orks inside could have easily jumped out,moved,assaulted. So given the deployment..If I put them at the very center of my deployment area they wouldn't have been within charge range...Oh wait. yes they would have..when you are talking about the spear head deployments that make your areas the SHORT table ends. The best you could hope for is a 3 layer line of troops...which means that you have 25 inches from each table edge at the very best....Course that puts you 9 inches from the center of the long table edge,and makes you an easy target for troops or vehicles deployed in his deployment area.

[Wildfire]

Not to be too hard on you, but I think you made two errors.

 

First, you deployed poorly. Knowing what special abilities he had taken (you did read his list beforehand, correct?), you should have anticipated his actions.

 

Second, and most important, you're not using the correct FOC for Spearhead. If you use the chart, you should take a normal FOC with normal point limits (say 1500). Then, you have an additional Spearhead deployment with additional points on top of the standard FOC (say 500 points). Thus you have a total of 2000 points, only 1/4 of which may be composed of Spearheads. At least, that's how I'm reading it.

 

Not saying that the Spearhead rules are balanced, but using them in the manner you did certainly would exacerbate the problem.

[Logan230]

Sorry man, but they even tell you that you should be playing +500 points on top of normal. thus 2k becomes 2.5k etc. playing at 1500 points is not what the style is designed for.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Not to be too hard on you, but I think you made two errors.

 

First, you deployed poorly. Knowing what special abilities he had taken (you did read his list beforehand, correct?), you should have anticipated his actions.

 

Second, and most important, you're not using the correct FOC for Spearhead. If you use the chart, you should take a normal FOC with normal point limits (say 1500). Then, you have an additional Spearhead deployment with additional points on top of the standard FOC (say 500 points). Thus you have a total of 2000 points, only 1/4 of which may be composed of Spearheads. At least, that's how I'm reading it.

 

Not saying that the Spearhead rules are balanced, but using them in the manner you did certainly would exacerbate the problem.

No I didn't read his list beforehand. The problem being that we used Army Builder to make the lists,so there wasn't even a point listing for the Spearhead deployments,so even if I had read it I wouldn't have known...especially as he had 3 different spearheads.Now It wouldn't surprise me that they had the wrong idea on how it was supposed to be set up. If there is a page number to go with that so I can present it to them that would do wonders for my peace of mind. It would make sooo much more sense for it to work the way you describe,rather then the way they described it.I built a list around close to that idea...apparently I was the only one that did.

 

Now,as for the deploying poorly...when you have a Triangle of deployment area. based on 9 inches form the center of the board longways,and going to the corners of the short end,with a vehicle that can move 13,and the troops assaulting from it...there isn't much option for safe. But regardless..If I can show them we were doing it wrong,and that it is supposed to work that way,I really do think it will work far more smoothly and would be amusing to play.Having no restrictions on spearhead point expenditures as we did it this time,that isn't fun.

[DV8]

Actually they recommend that you allot extra points for Spearhead units, allowing for bigger, more grandiose games. There is nothing stopping you from writing a pure 1500 point list using JUST the Spearhead FOC and formations.

 

A couple things I suppose:

 

1. This isn't Fantasy. You are allowed to see your opponent's list, unless you both agree beforehand not to share this information for a more...tactically "surprising" game. This, I think, is because 40k can pull a lot more stupid stuff than Fantasy (more so from movement, outflanking, etc.) while Fantasy is really only just down to the gear/kit of heroes and units. So yes you got heavily punished because you were unaware of simply what your opponent could do.

 

2. The Spearhead formations are designed for groups of tanks. Giving a single Land Raider Mechanized Assault is a waste of 60 points because you're not taking full advantage of the Spearhead rules (vehicles within 4" of another vehicle in their Spearhead being able to fire one extra gun in particular, you're paying 60 points if you take one tank or three, etc.). Likewise, infiltrating a Dreadnought for 60 points is wasted because you could have infiltrated three for the same points. When you take a formation, I recommend you maximize as much as possible to get as much benefit for as little expenditure of points possible. In your instance, spending more points on units + transports and maxing out the Mechanized Assault formation.

 

3. As already mentioned, poor deployment. Mechanized Assault is almost a must have for any army with transports, to the point where when playing Spearhead, always ALWAYS expect to encounter this spearhead with units Outflanking first turn. This means deploying in such a way as to minimize available targets for the enemy the turn they come on.

 

4. When selecting the formations, I would highly recommend keeping as much off the table as possible, preferably in formations, and where possible give up first turn. Mechanized Assault and Skyfall are two very devastatingly powerful combinations (both of which I take advantage of), and having your opponent's Outflankers and then Deep Strikers arrive first gives you the tactical advantage and forces your opponent to keep on their toes.

 

 

DV8

[the jeske]

o even if I had read it I wouldn't have known

really ? you see 2 death rollers and kans and you wouldnt know that one gets outflank [just the same what loyalist sm do with khan and assault termis in LR ] and kans will get infiltration[where was your chooser of slain by the way?] ? and thinking about orks and their general lack of anti tank and remembering what death koptas do [with the down side of boosting and not being able to shot turn one] you though if he takes those he wont give them an option to be used turn 1 ? looks like you didnt test enough against the ork dex.

 

list is bad build too . single of units never work . you dont have a rhino wall to support meq builds and you dont have enough LR to make a LR rush viable . even without spearhead rules that list would be bad . if dreads then like ork player did it 4or 5 [so more or less BA only] taken . If LR then 3-4 with . if meq taken the a razorback build . if LF then 15 with WG with cyclons siting on second floor of buildings or with the obligatory rhino wall in front of them.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Well,considering before they ran me over I was unaware of what death rollers were.So it was a amusing introduction to Orks all around.

 

So long story short,clearly I Deployed poorly,chose my list poorly,Played poorly,and shouldn't have bothered playing that particular game in the first place since I didn't have the resources to play it. Now that I know what mistakes I made,I can prevent making them in the future. Thanks guys.

 

My chooser of the Slain was covering as much of my part of the board as it could. He measured it out and deployed his kan's a half inch outside of the 18 inch radius.

[Leonaides]

Its not about covering as much of hte board as you can - just covering the bit that you need to cover. The hard part is working out which bit you need to cover...

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Its not about covering as much of hte board as you can - just covering the bit that you need to cover. The hard part is working out which bit you need to cover...

The bit I needed to cover was the bit by my long fangs and it covered that. I managed to keep his infiltrators off my side of the board completely. It just didn't help that much as they turned around and blasted my scouts instead of my long fangs,since they had the 2 shot 18 inch S7 small template weapon. so 18 shots,wounds on 2+,and unfortunately since I didn't know about the small blast,I had clumped the scouts to keep them out of LOS of another of his units.

 

All in all,it was a rough game.

[Valerian]

Well,considering before they ran me over I was unaware of what death rollers were.So it was a amusing introduction to Orks all around.

 

So long story short,clearly I Deployed poorly,chose my list poorly,Played poorly,and shouldn't have bothered playing that particular game in the first place since I didn't have the resources to play it. Now that I know what mistakes I made,I can prevent making them in the future. Thanks guys.

 

My chooser of the Slain was covering as much of my part of the board as it could. He measured it out and deployed his kan's a half inch outside of the 18 inch radius.

 

Requiem,

 

How did he manage 19 S10 hits with his Deff Rollas? Each one does d6 hits with a Tank Shock, unless you attempted a Death or Glory, in which case he gets an additional d6. To get 19 you would have had to Death or Glory against both Battlewagons, and he would have had to roll very well to get 19 out of 4d6.

 

V

[Grey Mage]

You know valerian, I was just about to ask that myself....

[Requiem of the Wolf]

You know valerian, I was just about to ask that myself....

He said it was 2d6 if I didn't do Death and Glory..I had failed the leadership checks and yes...he did roll really amazingly well...11 on one and 8 on the other. It was sucktastic.

 

Anyways.

[Valerian]

You know valerian, I was just about to ask that myself....

He said it was 2d6 if I didn't do Death and Glory..I had failed the leadership checks and yes...he did roll really amazingly well...11 on one and 8 on the other. It was sucktastic.

 

Anyways.

 

He cheated you a little then didn't he? Would have made a big difference, potentially, and might have left most of your Long Fang pack alive.

 

V

[Requiem of the Wolf]

You know valerian, I was just about to ask that myself....

He said it was 2d6 if I didn't do Death and Glory..I had failed the leadership checks and yes...he did roll really amazingly well...11 on one and 8 on the other. It was sucktastic.

 

Anyways.

 

He cheated you a little then didn't he? Would have made a big difference, potentially, and might have left most of your Long Fang pack alive.

 

V

I know for a fact it wasn't intentionally. also with 7 nobs piling out.even if it would have killed 3 instead of 6,it still would have been more then enough to annihilate the entire squad. it was 3 nobs with powerklaws,painboy and a big choppa and something else that was pretty nasty too. It might have meant I managed to kill one more nob but its unlikely to be honest. It wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference to the outcome really. out of the 19 hits,all but 2 wounded,and i saved 4

[Grey Mage]

How was it only a pair? All the vehicle spearheads require three vehicles?

[Wildfire]

How was it only a pair? All the vehicle spearheads require three vehicles?

 

Incorrect. With a couple exceptions (Outrider and Superheavy), they all say "up to 3".

[Grey Mage]

How was it only a pair? All the vehicle spearheads require three vehicles?

 

Incorrect. With a couple exceptions (Outrider and Superheavy), they all say "up to 3".

Hmm... yeah, your right. That opens up alot of possibilities for this weekend... thank you.

[Grimtooth]

The name of the expansion is Spearhead. The WD release of Spearhead features a ton of new tanks. The data sheets of Spearhead are full of tanks. And you complain that you lost because you didn't take any tanks?

 

:rolleyes: :tu: :(

[Grimtooth]

I just wanted to make sure my post was correct:

 

From the GW site for Spearhead rules:

 

Spearhead: Formations (Rules Download)

 

Spearhead is an Expansion for Warhammer 40,000 that first appeared in June 2010's issue of White Dwarf. On this page you will find the PDF that contains all the spearhead formations you can use in your tank battles.

 

Spearhead is a game of brutal tank battles and mechanised assaults, featuring armoured columns clashing across the wreckage-strewn plains of the 41st Millennium.

 

Spearhead is an official Expansion for Warhammer 40,000 and the full rules and missions for playing tank battles can only be found in June 2010's issue of White Dwarf. But to get the full experience of Spearhead you'll need to download the eponymous spearhead formations themselves. In the following PDF you'll find all 12 spearhead formations with rules for including them into your force.

 

I wonder what the WD had to say about Spearhead. I will bet even money that it mentions tanks.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

oye vey

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Sympathies, Orks can be... difficult.

 

The formation I could add to my army is an infiltrating or tank hunting trio of dreadnoughts (I have four including Bjorn).

 

Dreadnoughts :P

 

I haven't faced a spearhead yet, so I'm not going to try giving advice... well not too much... hey it's me... :D

 

Try the "mass attack" all infantry spearhead. Up to six troops choices with strength 7 krak grenades and may always regroup regardless of conditions. It costs 90 points, so don't do it with just one or two squads. I'm thinking 90 Blood Claws. :) Of course that's a 1590 point army by itself, drop six Blood Claws.

 

Rhinos (tank units) with the "crusher" spearhead. All those transports which you don't use for transporting infantry can suddenly run around ramming Land Raiders. Three of them only cost 120 points!