Single TL-autocannon dread

[Giga]

Did anyone here try having a dread with TL-autocannon, DCCW, and heavyflamer? It costs the same as the rifleman dread, has worse firepower, but can also work as an anti-assault unit or an objective guardian (especially against outflanking stuff and the like).

 

The thing I like about it is that it gets two highly-accurate long-range shots, combined with counter-assault power and the ability to deal with outflankers and deepstrikers AND contribute in forward-acting missions when needed, all while staying very cheap. On the other hand, it loses the sheer reliable firepower of the rifleman dread, and being a dread, it's not very effective in close combat anyway.

 

What do you guys think? I'd certainly say this loadout is better then the assault cannon, multimelta, plasmacannon and heavy bolter loadouts, and considering the lower price probably better then the TL-lascannon option as well. But is it good enough to compare to the standard dual TL-autocannon rifleman?

[Hellios]

Did anyone here try having a dread with TL-autocannon, DCCW, and heavyflamer? It costs the same as the rifleman dread, has worse firepower, but can also work as an anti-assault unit or an objective guardian (especially against outflanking stuff and the like).

 

The thing I like about it is that it gets two highly-accurate long-range shots, combined with counter-assault power and the ability to deal with outflankers and deepstrikers AND contribute in forward-acting missions when needed, all while staying very cheap. On the other hand, it loses the sheer reliable firepower of the rifleman dread, and being a dread, it's not very effective in close combat anyway.

 

What do you guys think? I'd certainly say this loadout is better then the assault cannon, multimelta, plasmacannon and heavy bolter loadouts, and considering the lower price probably better then the TL-lascannon option as well. But is it good enough to compare to the standard dual TL-autocannon rifleman?

 

That depends on what you want it to do... if you stick it in cover (on an objective?) I think it could do fairly well... Small units that get to you with a a save worse than 3+ should die... before anyone out flanks or deepstrikes... your autocannon can help pop transports (helping your army on the whole and making it more difficult to reach objectives on your side) and other light vehicles such as sentinels... it can even help you with the eldar :tu:. Your biggest issue (not including enemy ranged AT) are large units (which normally don't outflank or deepstrike, although a few exist) and units with good saves (and maybe invulnerable saves) such as terminators in which case between a heavy flamer, autocannon and a few CC attacks you might take a few of them with you anyway... Trygons might hurt as well I can't remember what I they have XD :D.

 

I always think this depends on the local environment and how you play your army but give it a try. As for other weapon options... multimelta is pretty short range and hopefully dedicated AT will have killed anything that requires a multi-melta before it gets within 12 of a dreadnought standing on your side of the board. The heavy bolter has a shorter range and is less effective against vehicles and MCs... big woop it might kill an extra ard boy a turn so yer leave that. The assault cannon and the plasma cannon are a bit more difficult... the AC has a half the range but double the shots and is not twin-linked however it can damage anything if you can rend but unless you like to gamble with the longer range the auto-cannon is better especially as you are sitting back and supporting rather than advancing. The plasma cannon has a slightly shorter range but not so short I don't think it will be able to fufill its role. it has the same S value but only one shot that can scatter so it is less likely to damage vehicles but can do damage to heavy infantry... so I would say it would be a toss up between those two weapons.

 

Is this better than a normal rifle man? Do you use a rifle man and then have little units attack it in CC? while supporting your army at range? Do you need that CC punch to help you or the extra 2 shots from an additional auto-cannon? Only you can tell me that :D

[Velkairiwyth]

Dreadnoughts are actually pretty darn good in close combat. you need to be selective about who you charge/let charge. Enemies with lots of rending attacks, melta bombs or monstrous creatures can quickly take you down, altohugh a single hidden powerfist needs a bit of luck to take you down... (3/4+ to hit, 4 to glance, then they still need a 5/6 to take you out. I have had dreadnought battles which raged on for many rounds and at the end of it they were just headbutting each other because they were immobilised and unarmed (and thats a S10 weapon)

 

The biggest problem is - if your going to loadout a dreadnought with expectations ofgoing near close combat - your wasting your time with those long range weaponry. I would highly recommend doing one of the fllowing:

 

Ironclad dreadnought: AV13 = awesome in CC - damn near unbeatable unless your monstrous or lucky with fists/hammers/melta bombs. Your weapon loadout is desigend to get up close, so have him run towards the enemy alongside your transports or other CC guys. Give it a heavy flamer, and keep melta gun - the extra attack the s8AP1 shot before the charge and torching = awesome. I have taken out a Tervigon without damage in CC with one of these, and for 145 points - that aint too shabby.

 

Alternatively if going with a regular dread - just take the assault cannon. You get 4 shots instead of 2 - they are not twin linked but you will hit on average with more shots... They are shorter range which is not a problem since you are aiming to get in melee, or at least produce a threat bubble to keep enemies away, and the Assault Cannon can penetrate AV14 if push comes to shove - the Autocannons will not even glance IT is also a bit friendlier against horde or meqs as there is more shots and they can rend. (3 hits is a 50% chance of a rend.)

 

If your going for a shooty dread. make it a shooty dread. If it gets caught in CC - it still has potential to tarpit a unit withot a good enough attack - it just gives armour saves when it wounds (s6 aint shabby.)

 

Edit:: One thing to note: Getting your dread into CC can work well or it can be a waste of time. With only 2/3/4 attacks a round your not going to be killing very fast and can get bogged down in melee. a unit of 20 gaunts for example may lose a couple of models a round, but fr less than half your points can tie the dreadnought up for the entire battle. If the unit is tougher or has good armour - they can effectively tie you up without much fear of losses (think assault troops) hence if your gearing for sniping - treat it as such and keep it out of unnecessary melee. If your gearing fr any form of CC - take as many things out as you can before hitting them and work with another unit (e.g tac sqd) to get that combat resolved asap.

 

My favourite targets for my CC capable dreads is anything tyraniddy with the exception of the MCs - Those lethal warriors that can kill a squad ofany kind on the charge? Tie them up with a dreadnought and smile as they cant wound you.

[Giga]

The thing is, they aren't GOOD at close combat (two attacks at WS4, bleh) or particularly GOOD at shooting. I've just been playing with the TL-autocannon + DCCW dread idea because that variant seems cheap and highly flexible + sounds like a good defense on objectives.

 

On the other hand, the close combat ability of the DCCW dread is pretty weak, and I'm thinking just having a standard rifleman dread unload its guns on an opponent and then charge to tarpit them would achieve the same thing while giving me greater anti-transport ability.

[Velkairiwyth]

If you can avoid combat, or get as many shots offas possible before being caught in CC - the shooty dreads can be awesome :tu:

 

i have had some good experiences with Dual TLAC dreads - I also have some great experiences with Plascan/ML dreadnought (I have moved more towards template spam army, seems to do a lot better.) Your shooting accuracy is reduced for vehicle sniping but against hordes or MEqs the plasma cannon and a frag/krak missile does pretty well. (a s8 shot and a s7 template as opposed to 3/4 s7 shots hitting... definitley not as effective at transport popping, but it is still pretty good.)

[Captain Idaho]

I prefer the Assault cannon for a Dreadnought intended to assault. Combined with a storm bolter you get 6 shots a turn, which can be done prior to charging. The strength of the Rifleman is it plays the odds on an average weapon, rolling 4 armour penetration dice in a single turn takes away the chance of bad luck ruining your shot and increases the likelihood of rolling a 6 on a dice roll, thus of causing damage to AV12 and below. Having just 2 dice rolls to do that won't really play the odds very well and you would do better with an Assault Cannon.

[ShinyRhino]

I thinkt he only way I'd run the single-TLAC Dread would be in a matched pair, or at least a supporting long-range unit. it can make a great guardian for a softer target.

Maybe try pairing it with another single-TLAC Dread, or a small Devastator squad with missile launchers or heavy bolters? The TLAC can break open incoming transports, and the Devs can unleash hell on the occupants, or salvo krak missiles if the TLAC didn't peel it open.

The DCCW+HF is a nice deterrent to the outflanking units that normally give Devs and other infantry firebases fits. I know mine hate IG outflankers because they end up with a lot of neat tools that can take down PA. Rending attacks from Penal Legion, power weapons from Al'Rahem, etc. A Dread parked as Big Brother near the Devs can fry those units in a single flamer burst.

It's not "optimal", but it might be fun.

[Race Bannon]

I made one back in 4th ed. so it's a TLAC/ML combo.

 

It works wonders ;)

 

* Cheap

* Mobile

* AT capable

* AI capable

 

As a support platform it does what I want it to do. No, it does throw a lot of bullets. But the ones it does cough out are big. Not big enough to rip apart big tanks, so I don't use it to do that. Sure, it can't assault, so I don't put it in a position to need it to start an assault. If it gets assaulted then it does. That means something else is not being assaulted. Simple ideas, but employed makes perfect sense.

 

My only recommendation is to not make the dreadnought be all-in-one.

[Jackelope King]

You're matching up the ranges in really strange ways. With a huge range on the autocannon, the Dreadnought gains a lot of its survivability from being way the heck away from anything that could reasonably target it. It's actually got decent mobility, so it can waddle around terrain pieces later in the game to get shots on distant enemies even when the flank you deployed it on is clear.

 

What you're trading half of its firepower for is the ability to, if the mood strikes you, use it as a close-support Dread. But for that role, you've already traded out the really nice close-support weapon (the multimelta) for a long-ranged weapon. You can use Dreads decently as close-support units (though Blood Angels can do it better, as they make a better DREAD SMASH list than Codex: Space Marines does), and even dirt-standard with no upgrades, they're pretty decent at it. But what you need to do is deploy them at least in pairs so that they can run counter-assault duties for each other. I did this for a little while with a mech list, and it wasn't terrible.

 

You should indeed be trying to create units with dual-purpose (able to threaten infantry and light vehicles, for example), but you shouldn't be doing this at the expense of taking a unit out of its element. A dread with twin-linked autocannons is in its element with your firebase in or near your deployment zone, as it out-ranges a lot of enemies. You paid perfectly good points for a moderate rate of fire, moderate strength, and good range, and then you go ahead and pay more points for something that demands you ignore that great range and rely on the mighty cruising speed of a Dreadnought set to full-ahead waddle.

[thade]

Giga, I'd say take the assault cannon. <3 I find it does everything I want the TL-autocannon to do when I take it. It even out-performs two TL-autocannons insofar as killing troops and popping transports...and on a lucky roll, the assault cannon can pen AV14. In general, if the Dread's going to have a fist on him and will ever be within 24" range, the assault cannon is I think the way to go.

 

If you want to go with TL-autocannons, keep him at 36" range or so and parked in cover...in which case he may never need the DCCW.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree, hence why I suggested the Assault Cannon/DDCW combo for the purposes Giga invisaged.

[Giga]

Yeh, I guess an assault cannon would be better for the purpose. But then again, I personally don't find assault cannon dreads worth it in shooting (I used to run a venerable with an assault cannon for a while, and found the standard multimelta venerable to be considerably better at the same job due to sheer fear factor and the fact it works well with Vulkan). The only great thing about assault cannons on dreads is that I have a ton of extra speeder assault cannons I have no use for, so converting one would be easy. ;)

 

My initial idea (the idea I'm still sticking with) is to convert two rifleman dreads. The single TLAC dread idea was just brainstorming, and TBH doesn't seem all that attractive anymore.

 

Either way, thanks for the input guys. :cuss

[minigun762]

I have to agree that there are better options to use if you want a gun/DCCW Dreadnought. My preference would be the Plasma Cannon but the Assault Cannon is also a good choice.

[Giga]

My preference would be the Plasma Cannon but the Assault Cannon is also a good choice.

Awww, cmon, that's only your traitor jealousy talkin' out of ya. :rolleyes:

 

Assault cannon dreads (or any assault cannons, for that matter) never worried me, really. It's all too easy to get saves against them, and the chance for them to actually do something to a vehicle are extremely luck-reliant, statistics be damned.

[minigun762]

Assault cannon dreads (or any assault cannons, for that matter) never worried me, really. It's all too easy to get saves against them, and the chance for them to actually do something to a vehicle are extremely luck-reliant, statistics be damned.

 

I would say it depends on what you're shooting at.

Against anything thats T4 or less, its exactly the same as the Autocannon.

Against AV10/11 vehicles it performs quite well beause it can glance/penetrate without relying on Rending.

 

Trust me, I love me some Autocannons but against most targets, 4 S6 shots > 2 TL S7 shots if you can get within range, which is fairly easy on a unit that can either drop pod in or move 6" and shoot.

 

Still of all of them, I like the Plasma Cannon because its a threat to everything and you don't have to worry about overheats.

[DerekLee688]

I've used the same loadout. It's been guarding one side of a vindicator on the front line with a LR blocking the other side. I use it in my all commers list because I don't know what will be hitting my front line. A Lasscannon is a little too expensive for a single shot and it's AP2 is only used to screw MC's. I need the range and number of shots aginst transports, period. Chimera's, vets in vendeta's, PM in rhino's, etc... Twinlinked, 48" range, two shots; even if it is only one, my meta game dictates it is the most point effecient vehicle poping weapon, and I still need the heavy flamer on my front line.

 

I would also use it to escort a footslogging squad to sit on an objective or follow a transport to take an objective, but if I had the arm I'd use it with assault cannon.

 

In short, it's viable for me because of how badd I need a single TLAC and the way I built my army. I will be experimenting on using a rifleman on the front line as well.

[Giga]

Against anything thats T4 or less, its exactly the same as the Autocannon.

Naw. An autocannon can shoot them infantry dudes from 48" away. Assault cannon has half the range.

 

It's important!!!11111oneoneone

[Zynk Kaladin]

Against anything thats T4 or less, its exactly the same as the Autocannon.

Naw. An autocannon can shoot them infantry dudes from 48" away. Assault cannon has half the range.

 

It's important!!!11111oneoneone

 

But, but, but the combi-pred! ;)

[Trozen]

I too have been considering using a pair of these dreads to support Bjorn and Long Fangs in a list. It seems to me a pair would add to the firepower while being able to guard Long Fangs.

[Giga]

Against anything thats T4 or less, its exactly the same as the Autocannon.

Naw. An autocannon can shoot them infantry dudes from 48" away. Assault cannon has half the range.

 

It's important!!!11111oneoneone

 

But, but, but the combi-pred! :angry:

Son, you ain't gunna use them combipreds to shoot them infantry dudes, are you? :woot:

[Zynk Kaladin]

"Brother driver, ramming speed!" *points sword*

[spartan249]

I've been using the TLLC/HF dreadnought for a while, and it's done the job pretty well. The TLAC/HF dreadnought is a cheaper variant of the same idea, and I think it might work, provided that it's supported properly by the rest of the army. However, they come in VERY limited numbers, so I think that each dreadnought needs to be maximized for their role. 1 TLAC is rather underwhelming on a dreadnought, and either going Mmelta or TLLC is the way to go for a versatile dread.

[pattison]

I don't have really good experiences with -let's call them- hybrid dreadnoughts.

For the short range one it should either be MM or AssC paired with a HFDCCW. I am not really found of AssC's in general though.

For the long range I dig the Rifleman of course, but the AutC&ML combination works really really well for me too, so i can second Race Bannon's experience.

The PC arm is kind of a different type of animal, and as I see it works best with a HFDCCW too either as defensive support, or offensive if taken on a Venerable.

That's my humble thought about dread loadouts.

[Fetterkey]

I frequently use TLAC/DCCW Dreadnoughts. In fact, my 2,000 point list has four. I find them highly effective.

[Chengar Qordath]

Dreadnoughts are actually pretty darn good in close combat. you need to be selective about who you charge/let charge. Enemies with lots of rending attacks, melta bombs or monstrous creatures can quickly take you down

Melta bombs are a negligible threat to Dreadnoughts; a single attack that only hits on a 6 and then still has a chance to fail on penetration is not that great of an option.