Are PAGK really too expensive for what you get?

[Daedalus Templarius]

So I was doing a little digging around, comparing prices, etc, for PAGK. I generally run an elite unit (GKT) in a larger Space Marine list, and it works pretty well, so I am not planning on changing it up massively. I just thought I would get some opinions, as generally PAGK are thought to be WAY overpriced, and perhaps for a objective capper, they may be in some cases.

 

So, a base PAGK squad (Justicar, 4 PAGK), is 150pts.

 

That gets you WS5, S6 weapons hitting at initiative and gaining an extra attack on the charge(also a power weapon for the justicar), 2 attacks for the justicar base 1 for regular GK (weak, since stormbolters don't count as an extra CCW), stormbolters for everyone, the shrouding(which I always forget to use), and a psychic hood for all attacks vs the squad(basically)

 

A base SM Assault squad is 100pts(sarge, 4 guys), a base Vanguard Vet squad is 125 pts(sarge, 4 vets)

 

Both of these squads come with bolt pistols, WS4, S4 CCWs(power weapon for sarge in the vanguard), 2 attacks for the sarge 1 for regular (2/2 for vanguards).

 

To bring either assault squad up to equality with a PAGK squad you'd have to at least add a special weapon of some sort to the sarge (relic blade for about the same effect, which is +15 for vanguards, also +15 for a non-enhancing S weapon for a regular assault squad. Or you could go for big damage and throw on a Pfist, but then you're hitting at I1). A storm bolter, which on sergeants for some squads is only +3, not bad (however, you won't get a stormbolter on everyone).

 

Of course in the current environment of 40k, more is generally better, and you definitely pay a premium for running a PAGK squad(25 for more models for PAGK, 18 for a regular assault squad), and if they are just grabbing objectives, a regular Tac squad may be better (or an Troop assault squad for BA, like I use).

 

I would like to use more PAGK, since they are my models, but I also have a lot of other units I like to use. Clearly, I need my group to just run really big Apoc game, then I can have all of my regular SMs and GKs on the board at the same time, with 4 land raiders.

 

What do you think about PAGK vs regular squads of SM?

[Gentlemanloser]

For what you get? No.

 

Too expensive? Yes.

 

It's nearly impossible to replicate a PAGK statline in game, for less points. The closest are Bile lead Chaos Marines. But, they are too expensive for the game overall, and compared to what others get.

 

For example, the Justicar is too expensive, but the real kicker is the inabilty to take a cheap option, unlike the SM Sarge you don't buy the PF for.

 

It's not that GK are too expensive, it's rather that newer armies are getting costs breaks, like free ultra/uber grit and grenades. While we don't.

[Zode]

2 attacks for the justicar base 1 for regular GK (weak, since stormbolters don't count as an extra CCW)

 

But they do for PAGK due to their True Grit special rule which allows them to use their StB as an additional CCW in any turn they didn't assault, so the Justicar w/StB always has three attacks and a standard PAGK w/StB always has two. That might change your calculations some.

[Daedalus Templarius]

2 attacks for the justicar base 1 for regular GK (weak, since stormbolters don't count as an extra CCW)

 

But they do for PAGK due to their True Grit special rule which allows them to use their StB as an additional CCW in any turn they didn't assault, so the Justicar w/StB always has three attacks and a standard PAGK w/StB always has two. That might change your calculations some.

 

I didn't know that off the top of my head, and have probably failed to use it in the past. Good to know though, however I am still not sure that they would be worth it in the current 40k environment. Would be fun to mess around though.

[Justicar Valius]

If you have never used PAGK then its ok, GKT cant do that.

 

Also I run 8 PAGK with 2 incinerators. Sure it's way overpriced but I like them for that one time you need 2 incinerators (Farseer and warlocks on foot, daemon squads etc)

[Daedalus Templarius]

If you have never used PAGK then its ok, GKT cant do that.

 

Also I run 8 PAGK with 2 incinerators. Sure it's way overpriced but I like them for that one time you need 2 incinerators (Farseer and warlocks on foot, daemon squads etc)

 

I used to run GK allied with IG, so I had a few squads of PAGK, although I tried to get them into CC with only things they would decimate anyway (like IG). They are fun, just not cost effective. I guess if someone doesn't really care about that, then they are fine. Hails of stormbolter fire at 24" has thus far been far more effective for me than 12" bolt pistols though, though my GKTs generally do the heavy lifting now, along with LRs.

[fuzbuckle]

The other thing that makes them overpriced is the inability to purchase a transport for them under 250 points unless you use the allies rules. If they were given the option to purchase a Rhino or a teleport ability similar to SM Gates of Infinity, their cost would be easier to swallow. As it stands now, though, they are not the troops choice around which I prefer to build my DH army. I use only 1 squad of GK's in a Land Raider to hold objectives and pop transports/walkers with my Lascannons. Conversely, because of their ability to take cheap transports, as well as more customization, Tac Squads make up the majority of my Marines army.

[Daedalus Templarius]

The other thing that makes them overpriced is the inability to purchase a transport for them under 250 points unless you use the allies rules. If they were given the option to purchase a Rhino or a teleport ability similar to SM Gates of Infinity, their cost would be easier to swallow. As it stands now, though, they are not the troops choice around which I prefer to build my DH army. I use only 1 squad of GK's in a Land Raider to hold objectives and pop transports/walkers with my Lascannons. Conversely, because of their ability to take cheap transports, as well as more customization, Tac Squads make up the majority of my Marines army.

 

Its hard to argue with a 20 point razorback if you remove the jump packs from an Assault squad for BA.

[Inquisitor =D=]

Hey! Never underestimate a Stormbolter Salvo from those PAGks! 7 man squad puts out 14 shots. When possible get a crossfire going from two squads. 14 Gks, One target, 28 Str4 shots, thats one dead target!

[the jeske]

14 Gks, One target, 28 Str4 shots, thats one dead target!

not a math hammer guy . but with BS 4 this is what 18-20 hit half wound so we end up with 9-10 wounds then either +4 cover or3 sv from meq , so we are lookinh at 4-5 dead guys in a horde unit [wont feel it] or 2-3 in a meq one[same] . to do that you use what 2 GK squads ...400+ points.... to get 2-3 dead meq.

[Inquisitor Fox]

At a range of 24", while maintaining the ability to move yourself. The ability of assault weapons to fire at range while being mobile is something very few other units have (typically either Eldar or Tau, both of which don't have the range on a basic trooper to compete at 24" while mobile). It's not killing a horde unit in one volley, it's the two to three volleys before the horde unit reaches melee range where you're looking at 12 to 15 dead guys before the assault. That's a bit more effective than other basic troopers.

[Gentlemanloser]

Apart from the mobility (which can be an issue in current games, like not having a transport to protect you form Reaper shots that will decimate an entire squad), the RoF of stombolters isn't really anything to shout about.

 

With Transports, Rapid Fire Bolters can put out the same RoF, and the range is mitigated by the Transprts speed. Especially if it's a Sternguard Squad with special Ammo...

[fuzbuckle]

Apart from the mobility (which can be an issue in current games, like not having a transport to protect you form Reaper shots that will decimate an entire squad), the RoF of stombolters isn't really anything to shout about.

 

You can add Demolisher Cannon shots, Plasma Cannon Shots, (Whatever that pie plate blast from the master of ordinance is actually called) shots, etc... There's a lot in the game that can lay waste to a squad of PAGK's at 24" or greater before the GK's have a chance to do anything. Granted there's the shrouding but more often then not my regular opponents which consist mainly of IG, CSM and C:SM, consistently roll with an effective range of ~30" or so.

 

I'm not saying that foot slogging GK's can't put out firepower because in lower point games, I foot slog them with great effect but at 1500+ when big guns become more accessible to my opponents, foot slogging my PAGK's = grave digging for my PAGK's.

[Daedalus Templarius]

Getting blazed by a group of stormtroopers as PAGK is pretty painful. It hasn't happened to me for a while, but its happened before, same with plasma tearing them apart. Of course, plasma is an issue for GKT as well.

 

I play with a guy who loves to field leman russes, i would NOT want to have power armor guys all over the field.

[Valerian]

There was a full Grey Knights army list for Rogue Trader in one of the Realms of Chaos books, which was essentially the same as every other Marine list, but with some specialized weapons and wargear added in, and Daemonhunter Inquisitors added in, as well. In 2nd Edition Grey Knights never had a full list and were relegated to just an allied squad of Grey Knights Terminators for other Marine/Imperial armies. So the 3rd Edition Codex Daemonhunters was really the first attempt to create a viable standalone "modern" army for the Ordo Malleus.

 

Considering it really was the first shot at it, the designers did a pretty good job. They did pretty well at capturing the feel of how a Grey Knights force should play on the battlefiled and created an Elite army of Marines. However, even in 3rd Edition when it was new, the codex had some significant issues. Those issues have only been exacerbated since the game has progressed through two new editions.

 

As I see it, the number first major problem for Grey Knights is their ability to handle enemy vehicles at range. 40k has become much more mechanized over the years, and 5th Edition made all vehicles more survivable, so this weakness now has a greater impact than it used to. Intentional or not, this is a major problem for the Grey Knights.

 

As an elite army, each model is expensive, which requires greater protection to preserve the investment of each unit. The Shrouding was intended to provide a balanced level of ranged protection, but it's mechanic is too conservative, and it rarely makes a difference, especially as the opposing forces close ground. Other modern Space Marine forces protect themselves until they need to deploy by riding in very reasonably priced transports. Both Rhinos and Razorbacks fit the bill perfectly, and cost next to nothing, however Grey Knights do not have any reasonably priced transports.

 

The next major issue is closely linked to the last, which also highlights the requirement for transports, and that is the lack of tactical mobility. Grey Knights do have a rare capability that all of the infantry can move and fire, but they are all limited by their 6" move plus a potential d6" run. Much of 5th Edition is Objective based, and requires much more mobile forces, than standard infantry movement allows. Compare the Grey Knights with the mobile unit options of other Marine forces, such as Bikers, Jump Infantry, standard infantry in transports, Outflankers, Land Speeders, and even some with Beasts and Cavalry (Space Wolves).

 

Grey Knights also have very little in the way of customization, whereas other Marine forces can be tailored to perform specific jobs. The two upgrade options that we do have (adding Incinerators or Psycannon), are too expensive for what you get, and what you have to sacrifice.

 

Valerian

[Gentlemanloser]

V hits the nail right on the head. ;)

[Daedalus Templarius]

Well, they tend to work really well when they are allied in. At least my GKT do.

 

I imagine in an APOC game, they would work decently as objective holders, since you could put them in an updated rules rhino, and forge org doesn't matter. Although honestly, I doubt the friends I play with would care if I put PAGK into a rhino of mine to cart them around. Even then they are silly expensive.

[Gentlemanloser]

In an Apoc game, mine are either DEad form the Super Heavy D blasts, or dead to Flank Marching CC monsters. :P

 

YMMV! :(

 

(Actually, the best result I've had with PAGK in Apoc - which was as close to banning said Assest, alongside Flank March - was sticking them in Bunkers I placed close to the no mans land. It was pure win! "What do you mean Bunkers now count like AV14 Immboile Transports?")

[boreas]

PAGK and GKT termies are very well priced and fare rather well.... if you're playing team. The problem is that, right now, WH40k is not very playable with non-mech elite forces. Non-mech Tau are a good exemple. Even non-mech SMs have trouble. When combining my GKs with another player, though, they almost always shine. We usually play this way: each player brings a 1500pts army (all gamers have 2-3 armies in my gaming group and we're not allowed to say which army we'll take) and we roll dice for team. This way, no "cheesy" combo can be planned. Still, even without "combo", I find I can very efficiently play all needed roles. If my partner is Tau, I play bodyguard while he shoots the enemy to bits (same with guards). An eldar will stay back while I take the brunt of the fight and then zoom in in the later turns and take objectives. Etc.

 

It goes to show that PAGKs and GKTs don't need to be revised a lot. What a new dex needs is: cheaper troops (as provided right now by allied IG) and mobility. The first could be had in the way of ISTs that are closer to the IG veterans with access to chimera/valkyries/vendettas and the latter with Stormravens and 12" movement GKs (call them Jump pack GKs, teleport-pack GKs or whatever you want for fluff). The only things I'd actually revise on the GKs are: replace SB/NFW for an incinerator for free OR for a psycannon for 5 pts. Change the Shrouding to nightfight.

[Daedalus Templarius]

PAGK and GKT termies are very well priced and fare rather well.... if you're playing team. The problem is that, right now, WH40k is not very playable with non-mech elite forces. Non-mech Tau are a good exemple. Even non-mech SMs have trouble. When combining my GKs with another player, though, they almost always shine. We usually play this way: each player brings a 1500pts army (all gamers have 2-3 armies in my gaming group and we're not allowed to say which army we'll take) and we roll dice for team. This way, no "cheesy" combo can be planned. Still, even without "combo", I find I can very efficiently play all needed roles. If my partner is Tau, I play bodyguard while he shoots the enemy to bits (same with guards). An eldar will stay back while I take the brunt of the fight and then zoom in in the later turns and take objectives. Etc.

 

It goes to show that PAGKs and GKTs don't need to be revised a lot. What a new dex needs is: cheaper troops (as provided right now by allied IG) and mobility. The first could be had in the way of ISTs that are closer to the IG veterans with access to chimera/valkyries/vendettas and the latter with Stormravens and 12" movement GKs (call them Jump pack GKs, teleport-pack GKs or whatever you want for fluff). The only things I'd actually revise on the GKs are: replace SB/NFW for an incinerator for free OR for a psycannon for 5 pts. Change the Shrouding to nightfight.

 

Hey, I always play team games! We do teams just like that too ;)

 

I ally mine with "Red Hunters" (BA) for cheaper troops, transports, and more heavy support options. Even though I am using BA assault troops, I still use my PAGK models.

 

My landraiders are always hard for the other team to ignore, and while they waste shots on them, my teammates have an easy time running the board. Generally if I manage to deliver the payload hammer unit (GKTs w/ furious charge, etc), its very bad as they are forced to split fire trying to deal with me and the rest of my teammates reaching their lines.

[boreas]

When choosing allies, GKs definitely shines. We do team tournements here and we can tool our lists in advance. It works like this: teams of four, 3 rounds each game you have to be paired with a different team member (so player A does one game with player B as a teammate , one with C and one with D). We usually plan our armies and combos in advance (as do most teams, although some are more hobbyist and come unprepared. We're not a competitive environnement, overall). We've won top team 5 times over the last 7 tournements (out of 8 teams, 5 of which are actually competitive). I either use my GKs, sisters or both. We've got very specialized armies that can compensate other armies' weaknesses. But even when choosing random teams (so no tooling), we perform extremely well.

 

Phil