Why would a Space Wolf fall?

[LordGates]

I was wondering, and figured I would post here since I am not super up to date on Space Wolf fluff and lore. Why would a Space Wolf fall to chaos? A good example being those who turned and joined Huron Blackheart. What would drive a Space Wolf to betray his oath to the Emperor and his legion? I am trying to write a little bit of fluff, but aside from falling to Khorne and going blood crazy, I could not really think of anything.

[Leonaides]

The usual - Pride, anger, desperation...

[Aeddon]

Well, you've come to the Space Wolf subforum looking for an answer, here's my personal opinion. The way I see that particular piece of fluff is the way I look at pretty much everything I've seen written by Matt Ward. That is to say, bloated with self serving bias and not to be taken seriously. My understanding of the Space Wolves gene seed is that it's special properties (the canis helix in particular) make it particularly resistant to the kind of betrayal written about in that "account" you mentioned.

 

Now so we are completely clear, yes this is a gross example of my own personal bias towards the Space Wolves. At the same time, it is also an accurate and honest account of my own understanding on the subject.

 

That being said, if you want to make an army like this than just make it. But what kind of answer do you expect when you come here and ask "what would make one of you betray everything you have sworn oaths of loyalty too?" Oath-breakers are not exactly looked upon in the fondest of lights around here. :D

[molsonbeagle]

In reading the chaos codex I too have asked myself the same question. I read the other codices to understand the other armies, I have no interest in making a chaos wolf army, but have myself wondered the same thing. My pride says 'NO wolf would turn on his brothers! He drinks mead and eats roast with them!', let's just be glad out amount of chaos transferance is so small I guess.

[alphalupine]

Aeddon is correct in my opinion. A Space Wolf wouldn't fall to chaos and betray their oaths, the Canis Helix wouldn't allow them to. I've pieced my bias opinion together based on numerous fluff and stories produced by GW over the years.

 

When exposed to chaos, the Canis Helix will begin to turn the Wolf into a Wulfen as a defense mechanism. Do we not remember the 13th Co.? In this form it is virtually impossible to persuade them to betray Russ, or the Allfather for that matter, in favor of chaos. If so we would see Huron running around with some really mangy wulfen traitors!

 

As a note, the curse of the Wulfen isn't just triggered by chaos. As we all know if a Wolf were to allow the beast within to fully consume him he would turn into the beast itself! Only Russ and the Allfather would know if the Wolf could then control it.

 

As for the Chaos codex. That story about the Wolf of Fenris is heresy and I will challenge anyone to a drinking contest who argues with me!

[LordGates]

Well, that is why I am on this forum, asking you guys ha. I literally know NOTHING about Space Wolves. I have read almost zero fluff about them and I have not read any of the past, or the present, codices.

The reason why I was asking is because I am trying to piece together an idea for Skyrar's Dark Wolves, and I am trying to examine if any Space Wolf, at any time, had fallen to the lures of Chaos.

[StrangeGuy]

No regular space marine chapter is above having its brothers fall to chaos. Space Wolves may be much more resistant than other chapters, but it's still possible.

[Thunderhawk3015]

Unfortunately as much as I do not want to support the heresy that is fallen wolves even in the space wolf codex there is reference to whole companies recanting theirs oaths of loyalty and in the books there is mention of brothers fallen to chaos. That said, my personal opinion follows that of the others, that no wolf would recant his oaths and if he even considered it he would be dropped by his brothers.

[Stormshrug]

I have to say that while I generally agree Space Wolves are extremely loyal, and while the Canis Helix does provide some amount of protection against possession and Chaos sorcery, I could also certainly see a Space Wolf falling to Chaos. The road to damnation is rarely obvious or intuitive, and the very properties that make the Space Wolves great (their honor, their humanism, their desire for glory) could easily drag somebody down. Not in a single step, not in a single action, but over time, without any obvious changes taking place. Not until it was far too late.

 

The Imperium of man is a brutal, evil place, all things considered, and the only moral leg it has to stand on is that any alternative is worse. I could easily see the idealism and self-empowerment of the Space Wolves clashing with the repressive, bureaucratic, and more than occasionally genocidal tendencies of the Imperium at large - in fact, such conflicts are all over our fluff. Grimnar calling the Inquisition and the Ecclisiarchy itself out over the the heroes of Armageddon that they doomed so blithely is one such instance. Now, to be sure, this was a righteous and honorable thing to do, but it was also dangerous. Is it such a step to see a Space Wolf not having Grimnar's foresight, and actually attacking the Inquisition? That's happened too, after all. And if you make war on the Inquisition, the hand of the Emperor himself, where do you go from there? The Space Wolves as a chapter have gotten away with doing so because the chapter as a whole is far too powerful to be quashed without draining critical resources from the Imperium at large.

 

But what about a single Great Company? The Space Wolves are always willing to fight the long odds, and normally this is one of their best qualities, but couldn't it also lead a single Wolf Lord to declare war on the Imperium itself if his convictions told him it was right? The Space Wolves have a long history of putting morality before law, and honor before reason. But if the Imperium itself becomes the enemy... where can you really turn but to Chaos?

 

Of course, no Space Wolf would swear himself to Chaos overnight. But is it so hard to imagine that one could become so disillusioned with the Imperium that tearing it down would seem the best option? It is, truly, a terrible, terrible institution. Is it so hard to imagine that, after decades of fruitless combat against its overwhelming forces, one might accept any help available, even if that help came from the soldiers of the Dark Gods. And although it might start as an alliance of necessity, a desperate step in the name of a greater cause, the Four give nothing for free...

 

In before "HERESY!"

 

-Stormshrug

[Rain]

SW's turning is not Matt Ward fluff, it's Gav Thorpe fluff, who is part of the GW old guard so it's definately canon. Also the old Chaos 'dex by Andy Chambers and Pete Haines had pictures of a Chaos Space Wolf in the back of the book. Pretty much every major Space Marine chapter has had traitors among it except for the Grey Knights, that's what makes them special.

[Brother Caleb]

Canis Helix aside, it seems that a wolf given to too much mirth might be led off by his desires. Or a warrior consumed by hatred, like Ragnar, might take that too far. An exceptionally cunning wolf might seek manipulate his foe and attract the Changer's gaze. Nurgle is the least probable candidate for wolf patronage. Perhaps, if the wolf fervently desired immortality, but that's a stretch because they seek to meet Russ in the death hunt.

 

However, I'm still a pup, so take my words for what they are.

[Silverwolf]

Stormshrug gets no beer for a year :D

 

As is usually the case, different bits of fluff will always contradict each other, as writers do not always fully read-up on the existing subject matter to avoid such contradictions, or simply wish to put their own spin on things, which then get's further spun off track by the next writer... etc etc.

 

I may not be as long in the tooth as some, but as none of those I would consider amongst the ranks our Wolf Priests here within the Fang has yet made a comment, I'll say this much;

 

The Canis Helix, by it's very nature, makes it next to impossible for a Space Wolf to be turned to Chaos. As the beast within him starts to take control (which is what happens as a Space Wolf begins to sucumb to his desires), then he turns to a Wulven. The example of the 13th Co. should be evidence enough that the Space Wolves are all but impossible to turn. How many thousands of years have the 13th Co. now battle amidst the perils of the Warp, and yet still they fight on, AGAINST the forces of Chaos. How many astartes chapters could manage such a feat?

 

Even Space Wolves that have fought against forces of the Imperium, have done so only for the protection of humanity. Chaos, in no way, would wish to protect humanity, infact the very opposite, a fact any Space Wolf knows well considering we're the closest chapter to the Eye of Terror, and those most often found fighting the forces of Chaos (aside from the Grey Knights themselves, who even then are only called upon when the situation is dire).

 

Call it Space Wolf pride or whatever you want, but I will never accept that any Space Wolf would, or COULD, turn to Chaos. If nothing else, in the very act of trying he would become a Wulven, and so once again be tied back to the chapter through the beast within. Any "fluff" to the contrary is pure heresy :D.

[Decoy]

In "uber-serious fluff mode", yeah. Wolves can fall to Chaos, just less often than other, weaker Chapters (The other Big Five).

 

In "HAH! We're the Wolves! mode", The only way I see a Space Wolf falling is that he gets drunk and trips on a rock.

[Grey Mage]

Well, you've come to the Space Wolf subforum looking for an answer, here's my personal opinion. The way I see that particular piece of fluff is the way I look at pretty much everything I've seen written by Matt Ward. That is to say, bloated with self serving bias and not to be taken seriously. My understanding of the Space Wolves gene seed is that it's special properties (the canis helix in particular) make it particularly resistant to the kind of betrayal written about in that "account" you mentioned.

 

Now so we are completely clear, yes this is a gross example of my own personal bias towards the Space Wolves. At the same time, it is also an accurate and honest account of my own understanding on the subject.

 

That being said, if you want to make an army like this than just make it. But what kind of answer do you expect when you come here and ask "what would make one of you betray everything you have sworn oaths of loyalty too?" Oath-breakers are not exactly looked upon in the fondest of lights around here. ;)

While I agree with you, I know were wrong.

 

How? Because the only marines to have never had a member fall to the chaos gods are the Grey Knights- and frankly, were old enough that it means we must have fallen brothers at some point.

 

Chaos would have a hard time being direct with space wolves- A quick deal is out of the question, and blasts of power tend to bring out the wulfen, not the heretic wich saves us from falling.

 

But a slow, insidious corruption... this could happen. A nudge here, a suggestion there, a bit of desperation now and again.

 

Id say were at our most vulnerable when away from the pack- like when joined to the Deathwatch as an example, without the steadying influence of the pack and our signature command structure.

[kittenofdeath]

In "HAH! We're the Wolves! mode", The only way I see a Space Wolf falling is that he gets drunk and trips on a rock.

 

Right in to the arms of a few female slanesshi cultists, who after an intense night of 'arguing their beleifs' with the wolf, turn back to the emperor's light.

 

 

 

On the subject of actualy falling though, it would be foolish to assume no Space Wolf has ever fallen to chaos, with the exception of the Grey Knights, all chapters have lost some of their number, even the SoB, whose faith and loyalty knows no bounds have lost at least one. The story in the chaos dex however is twaddle, I doubt any Space Marine would just turn around, go traitor and kill his brothers just to survive, least of all a space wolf.

[Hotspur]

In "uber-serious fluff mode", yeah. Wolves can fall to Chaos, just less often than other, weaker Chapters (The other Big Five).

 

In "HAH! We're the Wolves! mode", The only way I see a Space Wolf falling is that he gets drunk and trips on a rock.

 

;)

 

Sit down and share a keg of ale with me, brother!

[Lone Scout]

A good example being those who turned and joined Huron Blackheart.

 

What a :cussty piece of writing thatwas. Seriously no writer would be proud of that effort...suddenly the wolves turned on each other.....dumb.

 

Now if a whole squad planned to turn than fair enough...but the whole inhouse squabble is rubbish. The entire 2nd founding of the spacewolves went to chaos(?) and I think this is why the wolf priests test the recruits so serverly.

[Silverwolf]

The entire 2nd founding of the spacewolves went to chaos(?) and I think this is why the wolf priests test the recruits so serverly.

 

No, the Wolf Brothers went crazy. They didn't turn.

[Lone Scout]

And the 13th company lost in the warp for ???how long??? came busting out fighting chaos and still loyal to t he emperor....so I really don't think they would turn....sure they "could" but I doubt it....someone has to remain loyal through it all.

[Legatus]

I don't like the idea of any loyalist Marine turning to Chaos, as their loyalty is one of their most central traits (they even get a special rule for it, other than the Chaos Space Marines...). I disliked the idea that the Red Corsairs can somehow turn other loyalists, first founding even, by the dozens quite a bit when it first came up in teh 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, and I even wrote a letter to Andy Chambers about it. (No answer though, it was probably just fanvboy rambling.)

 

That being said, I do have to adress the Canis Helix issue that is often brought up for this topic. I myself have not read anything about it posessing the protective qualities that it is often claimed to have, and I am wondering where that claim is coming from. Does anyone have a source where such atrait is described? The 13th Company Index Astartes mentions the Canis Helix, but it does not say what many people claim it does, and it may well have been misinterpreted to be more awesome than it is described. It may be mentioned in one of the Ragna Books, but one section I have been pointed towards did not quite state a general protective trait against Chaos either.

 

This is the passage from the 13th Company Index Astartes, with a bit more context:

 

One question that remains is just how the Space Wolves Great Wolf Logan Grimnar will receive the Wulfen-kind. Will they disappear once more when some unknown short-term goal is met, or will they wish to return to their Chapter? Some say that the Wulfen have lived too long within the Realm of Chaos, expressly against Inquisitorial dictate. This fact alone should preclude their return to the Imperium. Of course, the Space Wolves, known for their strident independance from the institutions of the Imperium, may well oppose any and all censure of their erstwhile brothers. With Abaddon's invasion at full height, the Imperium can ill-afford internecine conflict.

 

Gene Seed

That the Canis Helix is responsible for the condition of the Wulfen is known, and it has been suggested that the savage force that resides within each Space Wolf has allowed the 13th Company to survive the long millennia of contact with the powers of Chaos.

 

What is not known is whether the 13th Company's presence within the Eye of terror has tainted its gene-seed in any way. Many simply point to the bestial appearance of the Wulfen-kind and their use of scavenged Traitor wargear as all the evidence needed to condemn them, but others defend their methods as pure necessity.

 

For one, I assume when the text refers to "surviving millenia of contact with the powers of Chaos" it does not mean that they were not corruptable all that time thanks to the Canis Helix. It seems more that the savage nature allowed them to endure ten thousand years in the most hostile environment imaginable. "survive" in this context indeed means "staying alive", and not "staying loyal". The loyalty and purity of them is questioned in the paragraphs prior and after that description of the Canis Helix, so it seems that it was really not a potential incorruptability that was described.

[Grey Mage]

Its in the William King, and his successors, books. Quite prominently, and in a number of places.

[Silverwolf]

What? Legatus?! I swear we told the servitors not to let you back in the Fang :D

 

hmmm

 

 

*points at the nearest Bloodclaw*

Oi you, yeh the Bloodclaw who looks like an Inquisitor taught him how to eat! You know Legatus stole your ale right? You gonna stand for that?

 

 

Seriously though, there is far more texts that speak of the Canis Helix and it's effects then just that little tidbit. Didn't we establish something last time about you only grabbing quotes that support you theories? ;)

 

Not gonna bother getting into another fluff debate with you though Legatus, your arguements seem to end up going in circles... I get dizzy! ;)

[Legatus]

I was politely asking for sources. Simple claims such as "they cannot be corrupted beause of the Canis Helix" are not much of an argument if it is not based on background text, but I cannot seem to find any such description on the Codices from 2nd Edition or later.

I have read the first four (or five? What number was Wolf Blade?) Ragnar novels, but that was quite some time ago, and I don't have access to them.

[Lone Scout]

Looks in Legatus direction...ready your bolt pistols brothers.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Space Wolves have fallen to Chaos. Not many...but some. Never in the space of a night...Never at the hands of possession or blasts of sorcerous magic. But Wolves have fallen. There are several things that work to prevent a Wolf from falling to darkness...The love of his brothers,the bond of blood and pack. The efforts of the Wolf Priests. And the beast within the Canis Helix itself.

 

But only a fool believes these things are infallible. The Wolf Priests are not able to be everywhere...This we all know. They are the spirit and the heart of the Great Companies...But they are not infallible,though they come the closest of any man. The Canis Helix...It protects our bodies from the effects of Chaos,but the price it demands is high. Some few Wolves fear losing themselves to the Curse...and this makes for an opening that Chaos could slip through. Not a big one,but any opening can be twisted to serve a dark purpose. The bond of Pack..Those who have been at your side for the entirety of your life among the Wolves. Tested and true battle brothers who have stood at your back through hellstorm and hail of shells. Think you of those who have lost their packs...Their brothers. You all have heard the sagas of the Lone Wolves...Those who have lost almost everything dear to them,and failed to die at their brother's sides. All know that the path they walk is one of madness,tightly controlled and focused into a hatred hotter then the beam of a Lascannon. For the surety of Vengeance,and without the support of one's pack...It is possible to lose sight of your way. To reap a bloody vengeance upon those that had stolen away all that the Wolf loved, some might think no price too great to pay to ensure their Foe's downfall,especially if they stood at Morkai's gates having failed their vengeance.

 

A Wolf would not fall in a instant, But If one were to fall,It would be step by step,almost certainly a result of good and honorable intentions leading down a path to an end not expected. Pride could blind them to what they are doing,until it is too late. Look you at the words of those who have spoken so far,And know for certain that we Wolves are full of Pride and rightly so...But know that pride must be tempered with wisdom,or it will lead to sorrow and death.

 

You ask what could cause a Wolf to fall? There is no one answer...I can only tell you what works to ensure Wolves don't fall. Should those fail...Then there is naught to do but ensure your brother's madness is laid to rest,his body burnt and his spirit to find peace and honor in Morkai's domain.