Why would a Space Wolf fall?

[whitewolfmxc]

So begins another line. by. line. response.

 

WoW, i didnt know you were more zealous than most but all you claim in the argument is some warped idea of how you see things in terms of being a tight xxx , seriously show me one line in ANY codex , that says 13th company are now Chaos or even traitors ? and the imperials are ordered to hunt them down ? Does eye or terror codex say so ? Its says they are still loyal to Russ and still follow his orders, not to mention showing up in the last Ragnar series novels that helped the cadian\'s and such

 

Doesn\'t matter. The Relictors were loyal, so were the Flame Falcons. And the Soul Drinkers. And Abnett\'s Alpha Legion. And... well you get the picture by now.

 

Ok , so how does this answer my argument ? It doesnt , my point was who ordered or how did the 13th company become \"widely known\" Chaos traitor scum bags that a death warrant was signed, all you said was \"doesnt matter\" , thats \"great\" response , all your bringing up is \"already inquisition / Imperial authorities pointed as traitors\" cases , cool , how does that fit into the topic again ?

 

Right , cause \"it doesnt matter\" if anyone that has a say says so or not , since by your logic , ALL \"Loyal\" chapters are actually traitors / Chaos lol ??? even though nobody has claimed them to be ? right.....now i know why Chaos players always wanted to use the SM codexes for thier own use , cause they are the same thing.........XD

 

 

 

Yeah a lot of chapters are far and deep behind the lines and all , so they all dont count for squat ?

 

Whoa! Thats TOTALLY what I said.

 

\"No, its not solid evidence at all. The 13th Company is about as far from Imperial Kosher as it gets\" Your words , and my asnwer \"yes you claim it doesnt count as squats , thier too far away\" or have i mistaken your intention ? Sorry English isnt my first language

 

 

I dont see how more \"solid\" can it be when its written in a codex (then of course people now a days even like to argue what is the cannon part of each book too so im not surprised)

 

Yeah, I hate codexes and all the information in them. I never use them in arguments.

 

Like i said before , your not bringing anything \"academic\" and its all you thats saying , sorry i have to agree to disagree

 

 

So they spend more time in the eye , so ?

 

The Eye is evil and corrupting by its very nature, only the hardest make it out OK. Even they are still scarred by it. Scarred like Lysander going crazy on every Iron Warrior for the past 44 years, or having a recession gene suddenly make you become a werewolf. Thats a scar.

 

Yes that was also my point , since you cant prove they are traitors or even they are \"crazy\" , sure a \"scar\".........my point is if EVEN under such circumstances they are still loyal they are proven to be more resilient against chaos powers

 

 

Does it say that that makes you chaos now ?

 

No. The Inquisition says your Chaos. Then your Chapter is annihilated and every thinks you WERE Chaos, regardless of what you think. Because the victors write the history books.

Exactly what i meant , proof of such event ?

 

 

 

Thank you for educating me! Now I get it! I had never heard of field expedience before! I was so wrong to think that the Inquisition doesnt like it when you use Chaos Weapons and armor that grows things and machine spirits that develop personalities and become possessed in the Eye! Because that NEVER HAPPENS.

 

Oh please , im hardly trying to teach anyone anything , cause simply you dont read the part where it says 13th dont use posses armor and weapon (its pretty blunt info in the hobby section for such content from the designer) not even armor with any chaos symbols / stars etc

 

 

so yeah you say its the same for BA death company too hah ? Oh boy , so you just \"proved\" that BA are also Chaos now ? id like to see how you \"try\" to convince the BA players now (grabs popcorn)

 

Sanguinius had wings. And could see the future. Blood Angels delve into berzerker like states and are suggested to have a thirst for Blood. The Flesh Tearers are known for their rampant bloodletting. There is more than a little Chaos in the Blood Angels. Its their struggle that defines them.

 

Oh so now your backing down saying theres a \"little\" chaos in them now ? Right , cause now your judging the emperors will and ways of how he created his primarchs (oh my who hates the heretic more ? the one who says such thing or the one who just said such thing and says his loyal ?) ok , you have your opnion lets see how the BA sees this lol

 

 

whats you point on bring this up if you say loyalty doesnt matter ? really ? is this even on topic ? Yeah mutation bad , but your still loyal so now your Chaos ? get real mate.

 

Your not loyal if the Inquisition says you arnt.

 

Very true , Cool now i just need a source to prove 13th is chaos , oh wait you dont like using codexes and books.........humm that might be a problem ?

 

 

Sorry but what i see is someone who somewhat has a personal vendetta on a perticuller thread cause a lot of people dont agree with him previously (cuase it was on a heavily off topic train and you somehow felt offended by some of the responses, which i understand) , and now you just seems to say \"No\" to everything others say without any reasoning. Please while your very free to to express your ideas and opinion , respect some of the other peoples ideas and not just saying stuff like \"your wrong cause thats how me and my \"insert chapter\" sees it\" a

 

The jig is up! Ive been made. How did you know I actually hate debates about background, perspective, and fluff and only do it because someone disagreed with me?

 

Ok , im sure i might have said it a bit heavier than i wanted it to sound , again sorry for that.

[Marshal Rohr]

Ok , so how does this answer my argument ? It doesnt , my point was who ordered or how did the 13th company become "widely known" Chaos traitor scum bags that a death warrant was signed, all you said was "doesnt matter" , thats "great" response ,

 

Its really hard to understand what you mean when you post like that. I'll try anyway.

 

all your bringing up is "already inquisition / Imperial authorities pointed as traitors" cases , cool , how does that fit into the topic again ?

 

Well, if your declared a traitor, you have fallen Marines :P . Your renegade marines are regarded as renegade by those who are going to try to kill them.

 

Right , cause "it doesnt matter" if anyone that has a say says so or not , since by your logic , ALL "Loyal" chapters are actually traitors / Chaos lol ???

 

So when did I say that? The Ultramarines arnt Chaos.

 

even though nobody has claimed them to be ?

 

What do you mean?

 

right.....now i know why Chaos players always wanted to use the SM codexes for thier own use , cause they are the same thing.........XD

 

And...... Im lost.

[whitewolfmxc]

argh answered before i finish edit XD my bad

 

dam im so confused with the forums quoting mechanism >< sigh bear with me brothers

 

ok i give up on the quoting thing , its way too techno for my taste lol

 

Anyway the point im trying to say is , yes i agree on what your saying on whats considered "traitor / chaos"

 

but the point is , you have to have someone in the right places to say you are in the first place

 

My point is , since your not bringing any sources from GW saying if Anyone has every did that to the 13th , how can you claim they are ? Even with all your arguments, you dont have an argument if you dont have that statement ?

 

Am i more clear now ? Dam i hate typing >< sigh

[Marshal Rohr]

That was too confusing, so Im just gonna say, that the 13th Company may not have a tainted soul but they have a tainted body, and if we knew how the Inquisition reacted after the EoT campaign it might lend more insight. If they declared them mutants and renegades then it doesnt matter if they truly fell or not, because to everyone else they are bad, do you see my point? Whether or not they truly fall is irrelevant.

 

Its perspective. To everyone else wild wolfmen coming from the Eye is just as scary as a crabman.

 

 

As for hard sources, Im in Australia and stealing wifi where I can find it, so no I dont have my collection with me. When I am back in Hawaii in a few weeks if this thread isnt melta'd or dead I'll grab some quotes for you, but I doubt you or anyone will care by the time I a home. I do however read alot of 40K background, so I know my stuff.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

That was too confusing, so Im just gonna say, that the 13th Company may not have a tainted soul but they have a tainted body, and if we knew how the Inquisition reacted after the EoT campaign it might lend more insight. If they declared them mutants and renegades then it doesnt matter if they truly fell or not, because to everyone else they are bad, do you see my point? Whether or not they truly fall is irrelevant.

 

Its perspective. To everyone else wild wolfmen coming from the Eye is just as scary as a crabman.

Yeah...to everyone other then a Space Wolf it would be a damn scary sight for sure. Thankfully the Wulfen only really seem to show up when its Space Wolves that are in trouble...kind of like our very own Legion of the Damned...but far cooler looking *grins*

[Legatus]

I say the 13th Company should have stayed a mystical legend. I was quite dismayed when GW brought them back. It is as if Guilliman would suddenly wake up for one big campaign, but then go to Terra and stay there for administrative purposes. It would take a lot of the feel of the Ultramarines' lore away.

 

I do think that the 13th Company is still loyal. What I still don't think is that that proves a special Chaos resistance of the Space Wolves gene-seed. They are still loyal because that is wicked awesome, not because it was the logical progression for Space Wolves living for a long time in the Eye of Terror.

 

As for the references in the Ragnar books about the beast within stirring against Chaos influence, imagine if it was a Raven Guard or Salamander hero that was tempted in a novel by the influences of Chaos. Don't you think he would have some kind of inner struggle but ultimately prevail? Perhaps the Salamander remembers the teachings of Vulkan, or something like that. For Ragnar it is the warrior beast within, allowing him to be defiant.

[whitewolfmxc]

I say the 13th Company should have stayed a mystical legend. I was quite dismayed when GW brought them back. It is as if Guilliman would suddenly wake up for one big campaign, but then go to Terra and stay there for administrative purposes. It would take a lot of the feel of the Ultramarines' lore away.

 

I do think that the 13th Company is still loyal. What I still don't think is that that proves a special Chaos resistance of the Space Wolves gene-seed. They are still loyal because that is wicked awesome, not because it was the logical progression for Space Wolves living for a long time in the Eye of Terror.

 

As for the references in the Ragnar books about the beast within stirring against Chaos influence, imagine if it was a Raven Guard or Salamander hero that was tempted in a novel by the influences of Chaos. Don't you think he would have some kind of inner struggle but ultimately prevail? Perhaps the Salamander remembers the teachings of Vulkan, or something like that. For Ragnar it is the warrior beast within, allowing him to be defiant.

 

very true , but the other chapters (or at least the ones known) will turn you into a werewolf once you have those self struggle mind wars going on lol Its a full psychical as well as a psychological effect if things go south , thats my argument on why they are actually more resilient to chaos corruption (again im not saying they are immune , just more resilient)

 

Its properly harder to temp or persuade a "beast" to join your cause no matter "how good" is your deal , i assume ? XD (also the argument why i think thats how the SW body reacts with the inner wolf if the user is about to submit to chaos , its like a knee jerk reaction)

[kittenofdeath]

So when did I say that? The Ultramarines arnt Chaos.

 

Technicaly you did say that the ultramarines were chaos, one of your arguements was that the 13th uses gear from hertetics, the gauntlets of ultamar, papa smurfs oven mits once belonged to a chaos champion.

 

Also, wasnt the emperor the one who made the canis helix?

[Marshal Rohr]

The oven mits were reclaimed. And proved to be resistant everything, even to being cracked open and examined. They may very well be Chaos Artifacts. You never know....

[Decoy]

So to boil down Marshal's arguments:

 

Everyone except Templars is Chaos.

 

 

Oh, you silly Templars. Go find a home planet or something. :P

[Walter Payton]

It states that the Grey Knights are 'unique' in that no member has fallen.

Ah, yes, that would be more definitive. I was merely looking in the basic Grey Knight description on page 6 and 7 of the Codex Daemonhunters. What page is that statement on, if you don't mind me asking? Or maybe I just missed the line when looking over the description on those pages...

 

Certainly...

 

I was in fact referring to Index Astartes: Grey Knights, found on page 40 of Index Astartes, Volume II. On said page, it refers (twice) to the Grey Knights as being unique. On the following page, it states that:

 

"These precautions are vital and have, thus far, proven to be effective, as not a single Grey Knight has faltered in battle or become a pawn of the Dark Powers. Emphasis is mine.

 

That seems to clear it up.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Two post above you is a good start , its stated many times in the Ragnar books by William king that Ragnar has been tempted by Chaos many times and every time his inner wulfen takes in to fight it

 

and just by the fact that the whole SW 13th company is in the warp for 10000 years and are still loyal to Russ and Big M is a solid prof that its harder to corrupt a SW cause of the special gene seed organ (Canis helix) they have

 

No, its not solid evidence at all. The 13th Company is about as far from Imperial Kosher as it gets, and if you think they are OK, your wrong. They have mutated, and spent more time in the EoT than any other loyalist, and they LOOK LIKE IT.

 

 

This proves why theres so many Wulfens in the 13th company , you get chaos influenced , your inner wulfen fights it , the more you let it fight the more chance of you "losing" to the wulfen hence you turn into a wulfen yourself

 

A Wulfen is BAD. Its a bad state to be in. The Death Company/Wulfen/Weregeld/etc are all BAD. It doesnt matter how loyal you are, mutation is bad. M'Kay.

 

You need to preface some of the things you state as " from the standpoint of X, or Y" Where X and y equal the inquisition, or the ultra, extreme fanatics that are Black Templars.

 

1. Space wolves may view the wulfen as simply a burden, a curse. Others OUTSIDE the chapter may view it otherwise (as heretical, diablous)

2. I remember it clearly stated (just cant remember the resource) that the wulfen seems to manifest itself more in the Eye as a defense to corruption.

3. For puritan =][= and BT's they are at such a fanatical extreme anything thing that deviates from what they view as the norm is to be destroyed or minimized.

4. The high lords certainly know of the curse, and have chosen to do absolutely nothing. If they viewed it the same as say the Red Corsairs falling to chaos I'm sure Fenris would be off the map by now.

[Legatus]

Certainly...

 

I was in fact referring to Index Astartes: Grey Knights, found on page 40 of Index Astartes, Volume II. On said page, it refers (twice) to the Grey Knights as being unique. On the following page, it states that:

 

"These precautions are vital and have, thus far, proven to be effective, as not a single Grey Knight has faltered in battle or become a pawn of the Dark Powers. Emphasis is mine.

 

That seems to clear it up.

 

That unfortunately is not in any way more definitive than the passage in the Codex Daemonhunters (it is in part identical, actually).

"Uniquely amongst the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Grey Knights Chapter has no antecedents, having been created from specifically engineered gene-seed. Legend has it that the Emperor himself ordered the creation of this unique Chapter to form a force designed to fight the dread creatures of Chaos, though, of course, this is impossible to verify."

 

I don't think anyone will dispute that the Grey Knights are a unique Chapter. Then follows a description of their association to the Ordo Malleus, their recruitment and finally their training.

 

"The most advanced bio-engineering and psycho-surgery is utilised to condition the Grey Knights into warriors of great prowess. The six hundred and sixty six Rituals of Detestation enable the Space Marines of the Grey Knights to face terrifying foes without fear and withstand pain that would cripple a 'normal' Space Marine. Their lives are filled with ritual, meditation and self-denial, designed to strengthen the mind and steel the soul against the horrors of the daemonic. The Chapter's warriors are heavily conditioned to resist the whispered seductions of Chaos and the honeyed lies of daemonis creatures. These precautions are vital and, thus far, have proven to be effective, as not a single Grey Knight has faltered in battle or become a pawn of the Dark Powers."

 

So Grey Knights are awesome, much more bad ass than regular Space Marines. And their methods seem to work, as there is no record of a Grey Knight faltering in battle or becoming a pawn of the Dark Powers. But here is what it doesn't say: That every other Chapter has had some of their Ranks becoming pawns of the Dark Gods.

What that sentence says is that the methods used to discipline the Grey Knights appears to work, as so far it has achieved the desired results. But that is not saying that other methods may not also achieve results. Or that a Chapter does not "happen" to have achieved the same results even without a particular method (but here you cannot be sure that it will last).

 

There are about 1000 Chapters. And none of them is fighting daemons all the time like the Grey Knights do. Even if merely 50-70% of the Chapter ever had one of their own ranks fall to the dark gods, the fact that the Grey Knights have not, even though they have constant exposure, can still be seen as proof that their methods are effective.

[Walter Payton]

Certainly...

 

I was in fact referring to Index Astartes: Grey Knights, found on page 40 of Index Astartes, Volume II. On said page, it refers (twice) to the Grey Knights as being unique. On the following page, it states that:

 

"These precautions are vital and have, thus far, proven to be effective, as not a single Grey Knight has faltered in battle or become a pawn of the Dark Powers. Emphasis is mine.

 

That seems to clear it up.

 

That unfortunately is not in any way more definitive than the passage in the Codex Daemonhunters (it is in part identical, actually).

"Uniquely amongst the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Grey Knights Chapter has no antecedents, having been created from specifically engineered gene-seed. Legend has it that the Emperor himself ordered the creation of this unique Chapter to form a force designed to fight the dread creatures of Chaos, though, of course, this is impossible to verify."

 

I don't think anyone will dispute that the Grey Knights are a unique Chapter. Then follows a description of their association to the Ordo Malleus, their recruitment and finally their training.

 

"The most advanced bio-engineering and psycho-surgery is utilised to condition the Grey Knights into warriors of great prowess. The six hundred and sixty six Rituals of Detestation enable the Space Marines of the Grey Knights to face terrifying foes without fear and withstand pain that would cripple a 'normal' Space Marine. Their lives are filled with ritual, meditation and self-denial, designed to strengthen the mind and steel the soul against the horrors of the daemonic. The Chapter's warriors are heavily conditioned to resist the whispered seductions of Chaos and the honeyed lies of daemonis creatures. These precautions are vital and, thus far, have proven to be effective, as not a single Grey Knight has faltered in battle or become a pawn of the Dark Powers."

 

So Grey Knights are awesome, much more bad ass than regular Space Marines. And their methods seem to work, as there is no record of a Grey Knight faltering in battle or becoming a pawn of the Dark Powers. But here is what it doesn't say: That every other Chapter has had some of their Ranks becoming pawns of the Dark Gods.

What that sentence says is that the methods used to discipline the Grey Knights appears to work, as so far it has achieved the desired results. But that is not saying that other methods may not also achieve results. Or that a Chapter does not "happen" to have achieved the same results even without a particular method (but here you cannot be sure that it will last).

 

There are about 1000 Chapters. And none of them is fighting daemons all the time like the Grey Knights do. Even if merely 50-70% of the Chapter ever had one of their own ranks fall to the dark gods, the fact that the Grey Knights have not, even though they have constant exposure, can still be seen as proof that their methods are effective.t

 

Until I get my 'dex back from my cousin, I'll let this stand.

[Brother Nihm]

The fact that there are no direct 'canon' examples of Space Wolves falling to Chaos (aside from the Wolf of Fenris story which is, like it or not, written in a Codex) is of no relevance whatsoever.

 

Just a side-note, I find it odd that some Space Wolf players object to the SW/Red Corsair bit in the newest Codex Chaos.

Space Wolves falling to Chaos - fluff (joining Huron) - is as old as 2nd edition.

It is in a Codex, it cannot get any more direct than that. :D

[Walter Payton]

The fact that there are no direct 'canon' examples of Space Wolves falling to Chaos (aside from the Wolf of Fenris story which is, like it or not, written in a Codex) is of no relevance whatsoever.

 

Just a side-note, I find it odd that some Space Wolf players object to the SW/Red Corsair bit in the newest Codex Chaos.

Space Wolves falling to Chaos - fluff (joining Huron) - is as old as 2nd edition.

It is in a Codex, it cannot get any more direct than that. :P

 

That was my point. All the SW players seem to be ignoring the storyon the grounds that they don't like it, so I pointed out that just because it is stand-alone is of no relevance whatsoever.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

The fact that there are no direct 'canon' examples of Space Wolves falling to Chaos (aside from the Wolf of Fenris story which is, like it or not, written in a Codex) is of no relevance whatsoever.

 

Just a side-note, I find it odd that some Space Wolf players object to the SW/Red Corsair bit in the newest Codex Chaos.

Space Wolves falling to Chaos - fluff (joining Huron) - is as old as 2nd edition.

It is in a Codex, it cannot get any more direct than that. :P

 

That was my point. All the SW players seem to be ignoring the storyon the grounds that they don't like it, so I pointed out that just because it is stand-alone is of no relevance whatsoever.

Not ignoring the story. Most Space wolf Players have the opinion that having the wolves turn in the way they did is something that no Wolf would do. Or any marine would do really. Hell..50% of guard units wouldn't have a thing like that happen in the way it was described.

 

There is a difference between pointing out :crappy writing,and refusing to admit that it could happen. That a group of marines,when facing a fight,would randomly turn and shoot their brethren and swear allegiance to Huron. I would call BS on that happening to any Marine chapter...because flat out it makes no sense. It is especially odd when considering Space Wolves,as everything we believe in says that those that fight and die with honor are the ones that get to go to our version of paradise. Which basically ends up being Fighting all day,partying all night for eternity. But every marine,is conditioned from day 1 to trust in his brothers,to give his life for the imperium. The story of the taking of the ship...that is just crappy writing. As I said earlier...If someone had written in a codex that Sigismund liked to go to official parades wearing a black sequined nun's habit and carrying the yardstick of supreme admonition,and it somehow made it past the editors...Then it would be Canon too. Would it be any less unlikely? nope...Would it be anything other then a example of a writer disliking the Templars,and somehow it getting past the editors? nope. But it would still end up being Canon.

 

Long rant short...crappy writing is crappy writing. All it takes to turn a Respected Chapter Master into a cross-dressing nutcase as far as canon is concerned...is one writer with a sense of humor,and one editor that's sleep deprived enough to miss it. It wouldn't require any explanation,any rationale,any logic..And you know as well as I do that if it did happen,every Black Templar would be saying it was a foul lie and not Canon.

 

(further note,I have nothing against cross-dressers,what you do is your business)

[Decoy]

(further note,I have nothing against cross-dressers,what you do is your business)

 

Avoiding obvious DA/BT/DE jokes, but quoting for amusement. Also, the post above this reeks of truth.

[Marshal Rohr]

Except, they didnt do that. Its not like Gav or Alessio or whoever wrote that part said, 'screw the space wolves, lets make them look dumb'. They wrote something that they viewed as a legitimate idea and now its canon. A cross dressing chapter master isn't, and using such an absurd claim invalidates your argument. Their execution may have been off, so its up to you to fill in the blanks. Some power hungry blood claw killed his elders when they wern't looking because he was prideful or some other easily explainable alternative. The fact the story said they quickly turned on their brothers doesnt mean they wern't already renegade or hadnt been corrupted. There isnt enough information. To say that the story in the codex is a mistake that got by the editior is BS, they have art work done for the story for crying out loud.

 

If the next BT/BA/DA/SM codex has a story about some chapter turning traitor, since it will be canon, Im sure everyone will suck it up and accept it because we arnt children and understand poor or illogical writing happens in 40K. We wont take it as some kind of personal insult to our chapters like you seem to do. The Ultramarines get over it when Graham McNeill reveals his new Ultramarine who isnt really an Ultramarine, you need to get over it when Gav Thorpe writes in Traitor Space Wolves.

[Aeddon]

Lol, oh Marshal2 Crusaders haven't you learned by now. Telling Space Wolves that we "need to" do something is a really quick way to ensuring that your opinions are ignored.

[Legatus]

Not ignoring the story. Most Space wolf Players have the opinion that having the wolves turn in the way they did is something that no Wolf would do. Or any marine would do really.

I wholeheartedly agree. I don't like the whole Red Corsairs theme that came up with the 3.5 Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines that Marines of any Chapter, specifically First Founding, come to join their ranks. They have only been traitors for the past 100 years, and suddenly whole squads of First Founding Marines go rogue. That means it would be reasonable to assume that a First Founding Chapter hast lost Marines every now and then for the past 10.000 years.

I mean, it would be perfectly viable if some rogue Marines would fill up their ranks over time. But why do they come from any Chapter?

 

That is why I am not simply taking the Red Corsairs fluff at face value. Droves of First Founding Marines would not suddenly turn at the drop of a hat. The 3.5 Codex had a squad of Red Corsair Crimson Fists, as well as a Red Corsair Dark Angel and a Red Corsair Space Wolf. There is something iffy about that fluff, it does not fit. (Similar to the Tyrannic War Veterans. Also, the Battle for Eskrador.) That's why I assume there is some untold background behind it, some powerfull psychic voodoo.

 

 

The Ultramarines get over it when Graham McNeill reveals his new Ultramarine who isnt really an Ultramarine

I don't. ;) As far as I am concerned the "Uriel Ventris" novels are published fan fiction.

[Leonaides]

And thinking that playing up to the 'unthinking savage' stereotype is a good way to advance a reasoned explanation is a really good way to look childish. But hey-ho, we're all more-or-less not enemies here (friends might be pushing it sometimes though).

[Gree]

2. I remember it clearly stated (just cant remember the resource) that the wulfen seems to manifest itself more in the Eye as a defense to corruption.

 

The only mention is contact, not corruption in the 13th Company IA. and the Wolves that were sent to the eye already had their ranks filled with Wulfen.

 

4. The high lords certainly know of the curse, and have chosen to do absolutely nothing. If they viewed it the same as say the Red Corsairs falling to chaos I'm sure Fenris would be off the map by now.

 

I don't recall reading this anywere. I don't think the High Lords know about it. Do you have a source for this?

 

The Ultramarines get over it when Graham McNeill reveals his new Ultramarine who isnt really an Ultramarine,

 

Looks like someone has'nt read Courage and Honor. ;)

[Aeddon]

And thinking that playing up to the 'unthinking savage' stereotype is a good way to advance a reasoned explanation is a really good way to look childish.

I wasn't "playing up" to anything. I was explaining that speaking in absolute terms while ignoring the whole other side of the argument is a not a good way to be taken seriously. But hey, if making personal attacks make you feel important, be my guest. ;)

 

But hey-ho, we're all more-or-less not enemies here (friends might be pushing it sometimes though).

That's the most honest thing I've read in this thread.

[Grey Mage]

The fact that there are no direct 'canon' examples of Space Wolves falling to Chaos (aside from the Wolf of Fenris story which is, like it or not, written in a Codex) is of no relevance whatsoever.

 

Just a side-note, I find it odd that some Space Wolf players object to the SW/Red Corsair bit in the newest Codex Chaos.

Space Wolves falling to Chaos - fluff (joining Huron) - is as old as 2nd edition.

It is in a Codex, it cannot get any more direct than that. :huh:

 

That was my point. All the SW players seem to be ignoring the storyon the grounds that they don't like it, so I pointed out that just because it is stand-alone is of no relevance whatsoever.

Im not ignoring it, Im saying I didnt like the story, and felt that there should have been a bit more depth to that particular peice of it- IE an explanation as to their motives. As it was, it just seemed like a bad tale.

 

That being said, The high lord of Terra know about wulfen, they experianced them first hand during the days immediately after the heresy and they saw the fate of the wolf brothers.

 

Wether its a particularly pressing thing to them, thats a whole nother matter.

 

And again- I put forth that others perceptions on wether or not your fallen are immaterial compared to the actual facts of the situation.