Why would a Space Wolf fall?

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Except, they didnt do that. Its not like Gav or Alessio or whoever wrote that part said, 'screw the space wolves, lets make them look dumb'. They wrote something that they viewed as a legitimate idea and now its canon. A cross dressing chapter master isn't, and using such an absurd claim invalidates your argument. Their execution may have been off, so its up to you to fill in the blanks. Some power hungry blood claw killed his elders when they wern't looking because he was prideful or some other easily explainable alternative. The fact the story said they quickly turned on their brothers doesnt mean they wern't already renegade or hadnt been corrupted. There isnt enough information. To say that the story in the codex is a mistake that got by the editior is BS, they have art work done for the story for crying out loud.

 

If the next BT/BA/DA/SM codex has a story about some chapter turning traitor, since it will be canon, Im sure everyone will suck it up and accept it because we arnt children and understand poor or illogical writing happens in 40K. We wont take it as some kind of personal insult to our chapters like you seem to do. The Ultramarines get over it when Graham McNeill reveals his new Ultramarine who isnt really an Ultramarine, you need to get over it when Gav Thorpe writes in Traitor Space Wolves.

A legitimate Idea is Space Wolves falling to Chaos. I have stated that throughout this entire thread. What I called crappy writing,was the way they did it. I picked the most ridiculous example I could think of to illustrate how something could become Canon. Now...wouldn't it be hilarious...if after all this,I was good friends with one of the team writing the new Black Templar Codex...and I found a way to talk him into putting in say...a full forge ship falling to Chaos,shooting on the Black Templar brethren. Don't worry though...Sigismund love of Black Sequin's will never come to light *grins*

 

See I don't believe you when you say you won't take it as a personal insult...considering how much wailing and gnashing of teeth that happened earlier when it was stated that every chapter but GK's have had members fall to Chaos,and someone dared to say that included Black Templars. You BT boy's acted like I hopped on the table and relieved myself in your Ale mug.

 

The way they did it,without any explanation,logic or rational behind it,is what myself and many other Wolves object to. If they had bothered to give a decent explanation,such as they had been corrupted allready by Huron,feeding him information from inside the ship and ensuring that they found it,That would make for a good story...As I said earlier in this discussion. It would show how they put some thought and care into such a controversial thing. Instead it was "Then just out of the blue,several Space Wolves turned on their brethren,gunning them down"

 

I mean really...every other instance of someone falling to Chaos that was written in codex's or otherwise,was gone into in great detail,on the hows and the whys...this was one sentence,added in almost like an afterthought. I said it was poorly written..And that it made no sense.

[Gree]

That being said, The high lord of Terra know about wulfen, they experianced them first hand during the days immediately after the heresy

 

How? Most of the Wulfen were with the 13th Company and the Wolves don't like do advertise that fact to outsiders. Do you have a source for this.

 

 

and they saw the fate of the wolf brothers.

 

We don't know exactly what had happened with the Wolf Brothers, or when it occuered.

[whitewolfmxc]

That being said, The high lord of Terra know about wulfen, they experianced them first hand during the days immediately after the heresy

 

How? Most of the Wulfen were with the 13th Company and the Wolves don't like do advertise that fact to outsiders. Do you have a source for this.

 

 

and they saw the fate of the wolf brothers.

 

We don't know exactly what had happened with the Wolf Brothers, or when it occuered.

 

 

About the pre heresey wulfen thing , i think its just more of a common sense , a full company that keeps the wulfens as main battle force is going to use them , and pre heresy / right after heresy is where a lot of SM legions work together or with other imperial forces , its not possible for wulfen NOT to be sighted at all .

 

Its not like we are going to put cardboard armor on them to cover them up and say : "These are our best shock troops that looks like robocop" lol

 

As to the wolf brothers , their fate is pretty sealed to an extend : "They arent around anymore" is what every source can Confirm , but as to how theres many versions, but one thing is for sure is that the Astarte's and Inquisition will never use the SW gene seed again to create another chapter , thats pretty solid fact

[Silverwolf]

Except, they didn’t do that. Its not like Gav or Alessio or whoever wrote that part said, 'screw the space wolves, lets make them look dumb'. They wrote something that they viewed as a legitimate idea and now its canon. A cross dressing chapter master isn't, and using such an absurd claim invalidates your argument. Their execution may have been off, so its up to you to fill in the blanks. Some power hungry blood claw killed his elders when they weren’t looking because he was prideful or some other easily explainable alternative. The fact the story said they quickly turned on their brothers doesn’t mean they weren’t already renegade or hadn’t been corrupted. There isn’t enough information. To say that the story in the codex is a mistake that got by the editor is BS, they have art work done for the story for crying out loud.

 

If the next BT/BA/DA/SM codex has a story about some chapter turning traitor, since it will be canon, I’m sure everyone will suck it up and accept it because we aren’t children and understand poor or illogical writing happens in 40K. We wont take it as some kind of personal insult to our chapters like you seem to do. The Ultramarines get over it when Graham McNeill reveals his new Ultramarine who isn’t really an Ultramarine, you need to get over it when Gav Thorpe writes in Traitor Space Wolves.

 

 

lol

 

Marshal, see my sig, enough said ;) ^_^.

 

Gah, I leave you whelps alone for a weekend and then have to spend an hr going over the new posts .

 

RE: Defences of Fenris - Comment made by Marshal

 

5th Ed Space Wolf codex states the defences of Fenris are second only to those of Terra itself. Forgetting where the info is from, but Bjorn held the front gates of the Fang against the Black Legion (? or part thereof?) with basically only the servitors and other "staff" of the Fang to assist him. Again without the source (Legatus is going to have a field day :)), the components of the Space Wolf fleet that happened to be at Fenris at the time, pushed back an attempted blockade breach by the Inquisition, and whatever elements of the BFG they saw fit to bring to along, when the Inquisition decided they needed to force their way onto Fenris to get a decent census of the current numbers / disposition of the Space Wolves (5th Ed SW Codex I think mentions it, but the story originated prior to that).

 

RE: "Fuzzy Wuzzy" Space Wolves - Defenders of Humanity

 

After the Emperor called an end to the Great Crusades, Leman Russ, and so the Space Wolves, were charged to be defenders of humanity. The entire reason for the creation of the Space Marines in the first place was that the Emperor understood there were perils out there in the "unknown" (at the time) that a normal human simply would not be capable of standing up to. In extension of that, after the Great Crusades ended, he knew that the peoples of the Galaxy would not be able to stand alone against the threats that faced them, and so charged the Space Wolves with their defence.

 

Planet-wide wholesale slaughter of civilians / acceptance of "acceptable civilian casualties", does not classify as defending humanity. And so the Space Wolves fight against this, whether it be the forces of Chaos, or the forces of the Inquisition, that are attempting to do this. We are but following the orders (and wishes) of our Primarch and our Emperor. The BTs can't even remember that the Emperor called an end to the Great Crusades ;) ;).

 

++ On Topic ++

 

I think at this point the majority of the Space Wolves have accepted the fact that Space Wolves have turned at one point or another. The arguements I'm seeing now are more in relation to the way in which this was show/written. The article was brief, poorly written, and without reasoning, background, or explanation. If it had been said that the Brothers in question had been slowly lead down the path of chaos by Tzeentch over the course of several weeks / months, and then had eventually turned, communicating with Huron and planning the ambush and slaughter of their former brothers... then it would of been received with much less arguement. Space Wolf pride kicking in guys, at the end of the day we are basically perpetually drunk & boastful space-vikings after all ;).

 

In regards to the Canis Helix and its effects against corruption; I know it says somewhere, in a canon source, that it DOES assist in the resistance against the effects of corruption. It may be somewhere in the EoT Codex in the background about the 13th Co. Yes Legatus, sources, sources. I'm at work, and usually am at work when on these forums. I don't have my library with me at work :P.

 

The 13th Co. would of course be viewed as suspect, if not outright corrupt, by many forces within the Imperium. But remember there ARE Inquisitors who are actually friendly with the Space Wolves; in fact there is as much varied view on such things amongst the Inquisition as there is differences between the thousands of astartes chapters. The 13th Co. has been accepted by the Space Wolves, and is not tainted (in the views of the Space Wolves, and undoubtedly in the views of any forces who witnessed them fighting in the EoT Campaign). However it is now another factor those amongst the Inquisition who do not like the Space Wolves can use in their arguments against the Space Wolves and their methods.

 

Oh and in regards to comments about the Wolf Brothers. The information on these lads is sketchy. Some sources say that it was a break off of existing members of the Space Wolves, who then picked a new home world and begun recruiting, only to find that the Canis Helix had some rather... unstable, effects on those not born on Fenris. Other sources state it was a completely new bunch of recruits, taken from a world other then Fenris, and so when implanted with the Canix Helix the effects weren't as they should of been. Either way, the end result of the story is this. For reasons unknown (except perhaps to our Primarch, the Emperor, and/or our Wolf Priests / Rune Priests) the Canis Helix is not safe to be implanted into a recruit from outside of Fenris, which is part of why all recruits into the Space Wolves are drawn from the human population of Fenris.

[Gree]

About the pre heresey wulfen thing , i think its just more of a common sense , a full company that keeps the wulfens as main battle force is going to use them , and pre heresy / right after heresy is where a lot of SM legions work together or with other imperial forces , its not possible for wulfen NOT to be sighted at all .

 

Its not like we are going to put cardboard armor on them to cover them up and say : "These are our best shock troops that looks like robocop" lol

 

No, for the modern day they are only legends. Going by their IA article people know they existed, but the Heresy was ten thousand years ago and the Inqusition was suprised to see how mutated they were.

 

That the 13th Company accompanied Russ on the Great Crusade is known, although the details of the campaigns in which they fought are lost to antiquity. Only the names of actions, long since forgotten appear in the archives, battles such as the First Siege of Methrix and the Battle of the Plains of Mo-Shan, the Fall of the Paramours of the Morpheus Rift, and the Crossing of Hangman's Void.

 

They know there was a formation, but they hardly know the details.

[Silverwolf]

Whitewolf, there was no "main battle force" of Wulfen in the 13th Co prior to their entry into the Eye of Terror. It is only after the extended stay inside the warp that so many have fallen to the curse of the Wulfen. From memory the EoT Codex states as much.

 

It is relatively rare for the curse of the Wulfen to fully come to the fore. Hence why MotW is an upgrade allowed 0-1 / most Space Wolf packs.

[Legatus]

the components of the Space Wolf fleet that happened to be at Fenris at the time, pushed back an attempted blockade breach by the Inquisition, and whatever elements of the BFG they saw fit to bring to along, when the Inquisition decided they needed to force their way onto Fenris to get a decent census of the current numbers / disposition of the Space Wolves (5th Ed SW Codex I think mentions it, but the story originated prior to that).

Here is an attempt to enter Space Wolves realm from the 3rd Edition Codex, page 30:

 

"Following my report on the belieft of the Adeptus Astartes (ref: Ecc/8474/BvH2), I have continued my investigations into specific Chapter cults. My most recent exploits have revolved around that most anarchic and undisciplined of Space Marine Chapters, the Space Wolves. While I had believed other Chapters to be uncooperative and obstructive on being approached, the Space Wolves proved to be completely intractable. Before my ship had even approached their homeworld of Fenris it was intercepted and turned back. The Space Wolves had scant regard for the Ecclesiarchical commission I carried and my insistence on at least a meeting with one of their representatives brought only warning shots and the threat of destruction. To an extent, their response is understandable in relation to the unfortunate activities of the Apostate Cardinal Bucharis but it is unconscionable that they still bear a grudge against the Ecclesiarchy after almost five millennia."

 

And this is from the 5th Edition Codex, page 19:

 

"The Ecclesiarchy comes to Fenris 886.M41

A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns. Almost a year later, the Ecclesiarchy and three orders of the Adepta Sororitas attempt to enter Fenrisian space in force. The resultant war lasts for three weeks before the Ecclesiarchy decides to let sleeping dogs lie and withdraw its forces."

 

 

I really wish people would stop mistaking the Wolves' conflicts with the Ecclesiarchy as being conflicts with the Inquisition.

[Grey Mage]

Adeptus Soritas are the military army of the church, and of the inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus....

[Silverwolf]

lol, well considering the cross-over between them it can be confusing, and even when it is stated to be the Ecclesiarchy

 

Within the modern Inquisition of M41 there are three Ordos Majoris; Xenos, Malleus, and Hereticus, and an unknown number of Ordos Minoris. Each branch specializes in the combat and investigation of specific threats to the Imperial domain. While Inquisitors from any Ordo are trained to deal with all potential dangers, it is the role of the Ordos to produce agents who are particularly adept at understanding and destroying specific abominations. Membership of an Ordo is not mandatory, and there are those Inquisitors who prefer not to join one.

 

Ordo Malleus (The Threat Beyond) - Destroys daemonic threats and investigates the nature of the Daemon. The Ordo came into being immediately after the Horus Heresy, and therefore has been a part of the Inquisition from the beginning.

Ordo Hereticus (The Threat Within) - Investigates and roots out heresy, mutation, and rogue psykers from humanity, and polices the Ecclesiarchy. The Ordo Hereticus was founded following the events of the Age of Apostasy.

Ordo Xenos (The Threat Without) - Investigates and eliminates alien influence and plots against the Imperium. It is not known when the Ordo Xenos was founded, however it is believed to be of a similar age to the Ordo Malleus

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inquisition

 

The Ecclesiarchy is not part of the Adeptus Terra, but a wholly separate organization. At its head is the Ecclesiarch, who, by tradition, is always one of the High Lords of Terra. Below him are the Cardinals, of which there are several thousand. Below the Cardinals are the Pontifices, Confessors, Missionaries and Preachers.

 

The Ministorum's ruling body is the Holy Synod, comprising the organization's Cardinals.

 

The Ministorum divides the Imperium into thousands of dioceses, each generally encompassing an entire Imperial world - an exception being Terra, which has several dioceses. A diocese is further divided into parishes centered around a shrine. Each diocese is headed by a Cardinal, while each parish is headed by a Preacher. Ranking between these individuals are Pontifices whose authority extends over several parishes and preachers within a single diocese.

 

The Ministorum also includes an administrative bureaucracy, headed by Arch-Deacons, which controls all secular business. Arch-Deacons are the administrative counterparts to Cardinals, responsible for the temporal affairs of an entire diocese. Their servants deal with the money entering and leaving a specific diocese or parish, regulate the construction of new shrines and temples and deal with the other physical requirements of the organisation.

 

As the Ministorum's power has grown, a number of sub-organizations have developed within its compass. An interesting example of this is the Adepta Sororitas, a penitent order of women. The Sisterhood, as it is generally known, is expected to maintain a close watch on all servants and departments of the Imperium. Its Militant Orders act as the military arm of the Ecclesiarchy.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Ministorum

 

The Adepta Sororitas (also "the Sisterhood" or "Daughters of the Emperor") are an all-woman subdivision of the religious organization known as the Ecclesiarchy or Ministorum. The Sisterhood's Orders Militant serve as the Ecclesiarchy's fighting arm, mercilessly rooting out corruption and heresy within humanity and every organization of the Adeptus Terra.

 

There is naturally some overlap between the duties of the Sisterhood and the Inquisition; for this reason, although the Inquisition and the Sisterhood remain entirely separate organizations, the Orders Militant of the Sisterhood also act as the unofficial militant arm of the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus.

 

The Adepta Sororitas and the Sisters of Battle are commonly regarded as the same thing, but the latter title technically refers only to the Orders Militant, the best-known part of the organization.

 

The Sisterhood serves as Ministorum's only official military forces because the Decree Passive rules that the Ecclesiarchy cannot maintain any men under arms. This was supposed to limit the power of the Ecclesiarchy. However the Ministorum were able to circumvent this decree by using the all-female force of the Sisterhood.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas

 

 

As I said... the overlaps can make things a bit confusing at times, specially when working purely from memory :). All information on that site is directly taken from canon sources, if you wish to check where, look at the links and use the numbering within the information on the webpage to cross-reference with the sources at the bottom of the page. Now to go looking for the Canis Helix and 13th Co Information ^_^.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I don't recall reading this anywere. I don't think the High Lords know about it. Do you have a source for this?)

SW 5th codex. Page 9. (also page 9 of the 2nd Ed. Codex)

Codex Astartes

"Perhaps the High Lords recognized the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen"

 

Also, keep in mind that SW have openly and passionatley fought loyal Imperium orgs. who encroached on their sovereignty.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

I really really wanted to avoid this topic as it just reeks of fanboism. ARGH WE WOULD NEVER FALL! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE.

 

I'm sorry, but its blatantly obvious that Space Wolves can and do fall. Is it often no, does it happen yes.

 

Ranulf the Wolf Priest makes mention that if Ragnar would give in to the 4 gods that he would be put down once it was found out. Even Ragnar is tempted by Chaos to kill his pack mate, the fellow pack member who helped lead the attack on the Thunderfist Clan, and he almost gave in. Ranulf even mentions that the powers of Chaos are indeed strong and must be defended against. Heck it was Grimblood I think who was lead on a wild goose chase by Magnus and left the Fang open to attack.

 

Now as to what would lead wolves to fall well simply the same thing that would lead you to fall as well. A wolf may enjoy blood shed and over killing butchery and find himself on the way to khorne. Tzeentch certainly affected the space wolves and im more than sure he could haunt their dreams and instill fear and confusing ideas in to their psyche.

 

Lets look into a possible situation. Tzeentch peers into the future and sees a possibility where a blood claw will become a great lord and may even find Leman Russ beginning the Wolf Time. In an effort to manipulate this aspiring Wolf Tzeentch sends him a dream that causes self doubt. Now being a proud Blood Claw our wolf keeps his shame and doubt to himself instead of seeing the Wolf Priest for guidance. Because he is ashamed he begins to slip up allowing pack members to be killed (not being quick to defend their side not purposefully allowing them to die) This causes him to become more insecure about his actions, his loyalties, and his purpose as a Space Wolf. Eventually his pack members begin to distrust him as he wasnt there to save the pack clown, or the pack leader, or he allowed the death of a wolf guard yadda yadda. Now being shunned by his pack he strays from the battle line and attempts to escape his past that has caused him to self doubt. Tzeentch appears to our stray wolf and offers him comfort friendship yadda yadda.

 

Seriously anything that would cause you or me to fall would cause a wolf to fall. They may be the most humanistic of the marines but that is both a power and a weakness against the forces of chaos.

[Whitefireinferno]

So the final thing is the Space Wolves HAVE fallen to chaos on a couple of accounts and can and possible will do so again. Look we are not GKs so we have battle brothers fall sucks to be us Also Huron probly goes out of his way to get members from other chapters into his ranks to save on dealings with Fabious.

 

SO SPACE WOLVES FALL, CRIMSION FISTS FALL,BLOOD ANGELS FALL,ULTRAMARINES FALL WE ALL FALL TO CHAOS UNLESS WE ARE GREY KNIGHTS.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

yea, it happens. not denying that.

 

still think the Wolf of Fenris story is kinda weak though.

 

WLK

[Whitefireinferno]

Yeah it may be rather Weak well more so in C:SW since it is only a small entry correct?*the Codex is at my mates and havent really read it* But in C:CSM it is near 2 full pages apart from the Picture of the Wolf of Fenris and where stuff happened but If they went on any longer they are gonna need the BL people in to make it a novel, Its like the Necron thing in our codex We would rather it not be their but we cant, Although it bothers me not Due to I am a Flesh Tearer and wasnt there to kill toasterbots and roaches alike.

[whitewolfmxc]

Yeah it may be rather Weak well more so in C:SW since it is only a small entry correct?*the Codex is at my mates and havent really read it* But in C:CSM it is near 2 full pages apart from the Picture of the Wolf of Fenris and where stuff happened but If they went on any longer they are gonna need the BL people in to make it a novel, Its like the Necron thing in our codex We would rather it not be their but we cant, Although it bothers me not Due to I am a Flesh Tearer and wasnt there to kill toasterbots and roaches alike.

 

 

I dont think anyone is saying they cant fall , dont know how you guys got the idea , so you can also keep it easy on the CAPS now , thanks.

 

 

The entry in the SW codex was short yes , but also have no mentioning of anyone surrending or turn traitor , only the outcome of the ship being captured is being decribed....hence the account in the chaos codex can be seen as a bit dodgy

 

Most people are simply saying its hard for a SW to fall (and not they cant) and its just seem poor writing on the red corsair story , that's all they are saying

 

We are not saying the length of the story was short , but rather the inside to why was near zero , "yup we know we are losing , we surrender to Chaos" seriously wouldn't you doubt it too ?

[Grey Mage]

Indeed, one, maybe two extra sentences would have wrapped it up on that issue, though the writing still wouldnt have been excellent.

 

Somewhere early in the story "led to the the Wolf of Fenris by shallow promises made to foolish young bloodclaws Huron closed in."

 

And later "At the arranged signal the bloodclaws turned on their older brethren, sealing their pact with Huron and the dark powers as the defenses of the wolves crumbled before the dual assault."

 

All of a sudden the actions have context.

[Gree]

I don't recall reading this anywere. I don't think the High Lords know about it. Do you have a source for this?)

SW 5th codex. Page 9. (also page 9 of the 2nd Ed. Codex)

Codex Astartes

"Perhaps the High Lords recognized the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen"

 

Key word ''in later times'' plus the whole sentence is vague anyway.