Why would a Space Wolf fall?

[Grey Mage]

Theres also the C:EOT entries, with such quotes as:

 

At the core of the 13th Company are the Grey Slayers packs, men who have served for millenia and are as dependable and experianced on the field of battle as any more could aspire to be. These men have borne the Curse of the Wulfen for millenia, and through it survived the very worst the Eye of Terror can throw at them.

 

Though that could be interepreted as a innate resistance of an increase in ferocity and reaction speed... *spreads hands*

[Legatus]

Since the mark of the wulfen is usually associated with stat increases, that might have been the meaning. That passage does have the purpose to present Grey Slayers as battle hardened veterans. A la "these warriors have been through hell and back". And they literally have been.

[kittenofdeath]

Even if the Canis Helix doesnt offer any kind of protection, fighting against it harderns All space wolves against the lures of chaos, when the whispers of chaos begin to coax you to their side, it yells obscenities at at you and makes you want to rip the head of whatever chaos welp is trying to take you.

[Gree]

Its in the William King, and his successors, books. Quite prominently, and in a number of places.

 

I actually never really saw that. Even after I re-read them a number of times. At least not flat out said in the context people say.

[Walter Payton]

Well, the Grey Knights are 'unique' amongst Space Marine Chapters in that none have fallen to Chaos. The Space Wolves are a Space Marine Chapter. Q.E.D, at some point, Space Wolves have fallen to Chaos.

 

Never at the hands of possession or blasts of sorcerous magic.

 

How are they immune to those things? Surely a sufficiently powerful daemon could subjugate/negate the Canis Helix? And how come Gift of Chaos works on them then? And in the King books, Madox even tries to coerce Ragnar into sacrificing himself to Tzeentch (though Ragnar escapes). Why would he bother if he knew it wouldn't work?

[Wolf Lord Durgann]

Found this article a few months ago and have kept it in my saved files...

 

Check it out. Its a great read!

 

Turning to Chaos..

 

I believe that the situation that happens in this discussion could easily happen to any space marine.. even a space wolf.. as much as I would not want it to happen.

[Prosedragon]

I'm pretty new to the Fang, but my Great Company's history (in my head) is that they are slowly falling to Chaos from pride. Space Marines are supposed to be so immune to chaos because of their personal faith, their overall confidence in themselves, pride in their heritage, psycho-indoctrination etc. etc. - so what would happen to their psyche if they experienced a great personal failing, or if the company (or a significant portion thereof) succumbed to an act of cowardice? I know everyone reading this just experienced a conflagration of righteous fury at the thought that a Space Marine, much less a Space Wolf, would EVER have a moment of cowardice, but in 10,000 years of history it is possible. I think the doubt and shame that followed, which would shake everything they know and believe in, could open them up to being tainted by chaos. I also think its a much better story than going crazy and suddenly worshiping Khorne.

 

My two cents - you can rant about how Space Wolves are genetically and psychologically engineered to never experience shame or cowardice now.

[Legatus]

Found this article a few months ago and have kept it in my saved files...

 

Check it out. Its a great read!

"Let me be blunt: I do not see Chaos as any more evil than anyone else in Warhammer 40,000."

 

That's where I stopped reading. :rolleyes: The "there is no real evil and it is all a matter of perspective" does not apply in a fictional universe with "dark gods" that live in a hell dimension and desire nothing more than to torure your soul for all eternity.

[JamesI]

As much as no one wants to admit members of their favorite chapter falling (I've seen the argument made by many chapters), it happens unless you are Grey Knights.

 

Wolves fall, perhaps the story of Huron and the wolves in the chaos codex isn't a good example of how wolves would really fall, but it must have happened.

[Brother Nihm]

Just a side-note, I find it odd that some Space Wolf players object to the SW/Red Corsair bit in the newest Codex Chaos.

Space Wolves falling to Chaos - fluff (joining Huron) - is as old as 2nd edition.

[Grey Mage]

Just a side-note, I find it odd that some Space Wolf players object to the SW/Red Corsair bit in the newest Codex Chaos.

Space Wolves falling to Chaos - fluff (joining Huron) - is as old as 2nd edition.

Its not the concept, its the execution. All of a sudden, and all of a random, wich is covered by perhaps the shortest paragraph in the entire short story, a half dozen SWs turn and kill their friends and surrender? Recanting their oaths on the spot?

 

Its just sketchy- if theyd been traitors, waiting on the Wolf and having called in Huron to take the ship while they sabbotaged it from the inside Id have said "wow, the guy has resources, and more charisma than Id have thought, a real pirate".

 

As it is, the story just seems dumb.

[Wolf Lord Durgann]

Found this article a few months ago and have kept it in my saved files...

 

Check it out. Its a great read!

"Let me be blunt: I do not see Chaos as any more evil than anyone else in Warhammer 40,000."

 

That's where I stopped reading. :rolleyes: The "there is no real evil and it is all a matter of perspective" does not apply in a fictional universe with "dark gods" that live in a hell dimension and desire nothing more than to torure your soul for all eternity.

 

 

Thats unfortunate... because it was a great post with very thoughtful comments.

 

Guess you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it...

[Legatus]

If the first sip tastes stale, they might refrain from drinking from that source.

 

 

Anyway, I have allways assumed that Huron must have some kind of mind controll device, probably very powerful psykers. I cannot otherwise explain how Space Wolves would not only fight for him, but more importantly attack and kill their former brethren before joining him. Fighting for someone labeled as a "traitor" and even fighting against Imperial institutions is one thing. But attacking former brothers all of a sudden, that is very hard to justify.

[Karack Blackstone]

A Wolf would not fall in a instant, But If one were to fall,It would be step by step,almost certainly a result of good and honorable intentions leading down a path to an end not expected. Pride could blind them to what they are doing,until it is too late. Look you at the words of those who have spoken so far,And know for certain that we Wolves are full of Pride and rightly so...But know that pride must be tempered with wisdom,or it will lead to sorrow and death.

 

You ask what could cause a Wolf to fall? There is no one answer...I can only tell you what works to ensure Wolves don't fall. Should those fail...Then there is naught to do but ensure your brother's madness is laid to rest,his body burnt and his spirit to find peace and honor in Morkai's domain.

 

This. Wisdom, Courage and Cunning are our Holy Trinity around here, last I checked.

[lothbrok]

i feel that space wolves are naturally more resistant but not at all proof against falling.

 

you really have to look at the fluff for the space wolves they are in essence Vikings and raiders and like most raiders they are or atleast were in most cases greedy.

l

ike vikings they care more about personal glory than anything else which makes it quite esay to fall to khorne.

 

not to mention becuase they are vikings they are probaly rather obessed with their personal appearance and are more than a little vain and as we learned from the emperors children vainity leads to slanesh.

 

now im not saying that many space wolves would fall but there are always that minority no matter where you look that epitomize the dark side of any group.

[Black2Jack1]

Its in the William King, and his successors, books. Quite prominently, and in a number of places.

 

I actually never really saw that. Even after I re-read them a number of times. At least not flat out said in the context people say.

 

I have also read the books by William King, I cant tell you exactly what page number but there is a scene in which Ragnar is looking into a piece of art which has chaos properties. It then describes the influence of chaos starting to corrupt ragnar and then the "Wolf" or "Beast" inside reacts pushing Ragnar back into a normal state. I believe he may have also been with some of his pack.

 

I dont argue that Space Wolves cannot fall. I do argue that the Canis Helix plays a major role against it.

 

To answer the OP's question, I agree with those that say we would succumb slowly.

[Grimtooth]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the Huron/Red Corsairs fluff when taken into context of the SW pack mentality.

 

Huron's attack and complete overwhelming force of the Wolf of Fenris could have possibly projected him as an apex predator in the eyes of the Space Wolves that joined forces with him, an alpha to follow like no other they had ever seen.

 

This theory could have played a huge part since the Space Wolves mentality is to follow an alpha from aspirant. When presented with one (Huron) that could so easily overwhelm and destroy them, this mentality just kicked into overdrive as a means to survive.

 

I am sure many of you have seen a nature documentary when a new alpha violently takes over a wolf pack, other males in the pack pretty much lay down with ears flat, bellies and necks exposed in submission.

[Karack Blackstone]

Also to add, the Dark Heresy Roleplaying setting brings in corruption points. While no book on the Space Marines exists yet, there is the telling note that as a Throne Agent (Yes, it's Inquisition, but more if you make it) one can be corrupted by exposure to Chaos. For the Space Wolves however, it seems their choices of mutation may also include some measure of resistance via the storied ability of the Canis Helix.

 

I would like to add that I agree with Grey Mage on the simply dumb take on how GW presented the article. Unless they were Blood Claws, their actions do not equal the sum total of any Grey Hunter pack I have heard tell of. I can accept that some of the Space Wolves chose to serve Chaos, but otherwise I really don't see it as having happened.

 

This thread is going to be a long one. And I see we already have the "intruder" back, Legatus. :rolleyes:

[Brother Rathul]

:rolleyes: To many Space Wolves, and too drunk to know that the Black Templars are so much better. No Black Templar has fallen to chaos, not one! Followed by the Imperial Fists of course. ^_^

CHAOS SNOW ANGELS!!!!! I love it. :(

[TiguriusX]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the Huron/Red Corsairs fluff when taken into context of the SW pack mentality.

 

Huron's attack and complete overwhelming force of the Wolf of Fenris could have possibly projected him as an apex predator in the eyes of the Space Wolves that joined forces with him, an alpha to follow like no other they had ever seen.

 

This theory could have played a huge part since the Space Wolves mentality is to follow an alpha from aspirant. When presented with one (Huron) that could so easily overwhelm and destroy them, this mentality just kicked into overdrive as a means to survive.

 

I am sure many of you have seen a nature documentary when a new alpha violently takes over a wolf pack, other males in the pack pretty much lay down with ears flat, bellies and necks exposed in submission.

 

I am not sure I can agree with this.

 

Animals don't follow an alpha blindly. Animals also don't turn on eachother for betrayal and murder. Food and mating yes but not pure butchery. If an animal is part of a group that group is very important to it.

 

As others have said I could believe a set of circumstances leading SW to Chaos. Betray the Imperium because of sins of the Inquisition? Sure I buy that. Logan has already slapped them around for transgressions.

 

What I have trouble accepting is a group of pack members turning on their brothers in wholesale slaughter. That is the ultimate antithesis of pack mentality.

 

*EDIT*

Oh...and sticking with your alpha analogy. Huron wouldn't be seen as a potential alpha. He is an outsider. Wolf packs don't roll over and submit to grizzly bears or other superior predators they come across. The alpha is a pack member

[Mammon]

I think the Space Wolves don't succumb to the lures of Chaos as often as they directly oppose certain bodies of the Imperium such as the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy. Usually over unjustifiable atrocities perpetrated by those organizations (happens often). At this point it doesn't matter why you opposed them, your still being branded Hereticus and accused of being in league with the Dark Powers.

 

These situations I think would lead the renegade Wolves to either vigilantism or to Chaos after the Imperium and humanity turns its back on them.

[Grimtooth]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the Huron/Red Corsairs fluff when taken into context of the SW pack mentality.

 

Huron's attack and complete overwhelming force of the Wolf of Fenris could have possibly projected him as an apex predator in the eyes of the Space Wolves that joined forces with him, an alpha to follow like no other they had ever seen.

 

This theory could have played a huge part since the Space Wolves mentality is to follow an alpha from aspirant. When presented with one (Huron) that could so easily overwhelm and destroy them, this mentality just kicked into overdrive as a means to survive.

 

I am sure many of you have seen a nature documentary when a new alpha violently takes over a wolf pack, other males in the pack pretty much lay down with ears flat, bellies and necks exposed in submission.

 

I am not sure I can agree with this.

 

Animals don't follow an alpha blindly. Animals also don't turn on eachother for betrayal and murder. Food and mating yes but not pure butchery. If an animal is part of a group that group is very important to it.

 

As others have said I could believe a set of circumstances leading SW to Chaos. Betray the Imperium because of sins of the Inquisition? Sure I buy that. Logan has already slapped them around for transgressions.

 

What I have trouble accepting is a group of pack members turning on their brothers in wholesale slaughter. That is the ultimate antithesis of pack mentality.

 

*EDIT*

Oh...and sticking with your alpha analogy. Huron wouldn't be seen as a potential alpha. He is an outsider. Wolf packs don't roll over and submit to grizzly bears or other superior predators they come across. The alpha is a pack member

 

I originally said an apex predator, which he exemplified with his ambush and attack on the Wolf of Fenris, and killing of Bluetooth.

 

The SW were overrun and outclassed by a superior alpha, period. Considering their pack mentality, they would not be following an alpha blindly. Their faith in all that they believed would have been shattered by Huron's attack, so they would be following his ideals and whatnot as the new alpha. Why bother with Russ, the Allfather, and the Imperium when it has been so easily blasted apart by this alpha and his ideas.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I agree with RotW, the descent of a Wolf into Chaos would never be quick and always motivated by the "right" reasons.

 

I suspect Tzeentch would become the Chaos God of fallen wolves, if only because that sort of slow corruption is the kind of thing that he's known for delighting in.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

;) To many Space Wolves, and too drunk to know that the Black Templars are so much better. No Black Templar has fallen to chaos, not one! Followed by the Imperial Fists of course. :D

CHAOS SNOW ANGELS!!!!! I love it. :D

Sorry Rath,but your armor is a bit too stained to qualify as a Grey Knight...and that is the only way you get to say you have never had a brother fall to Chaos. As for better..*chuckles* only a lapdog of the Inquisition would be so blind...But come on then...Raise your fists whelp..prove your claims...or slink back under the skirts of your high marshal.

 

Now that the whelp has been reminded of it's place *grins* back to the business at hand. I think I see what Ramses is trying to say..and while not entirely logical for how a Wolf would think in my opinion,it at least tries to explain something that to date,even being as old as people say,still has never been adequately explained. Personally,I think the idea of Huron having found a way to make a pack turn traitor before he attacked would make alot more sense,as odd as that sounds. The points raised about the persecution of the Inquisition leading a Wolf to turn to Chaos as a last resort is another example of what I meant by "doing what was right,following a path of good intentions and having it lead to a dark place"

 

Vanity is not often a prevailing sin amongst the Wolves...But for sure it does happen. Whether it would be enough to make a Wolf fall to Chaos,that I would doubt...but I suppose it is possible. Of all the Chaos gods,it would be Tzeentch that would be the likeliest to cause Wolves to fall. The intricate planning and weaving of chance that would be the likeliest way for a Wolf to fall is described as his greatest joy. A wolf might fall to the bloodlust exemplified by Khorne here and there...but they would be the rarest of the rare.

 

And this is also one of the only problems I had with the Dornian Heresy story...That it was Khorne that the Wolves worshipped....turning our backs on the rune priests. Ignoring the fact that every son of Fenris is at least in part a son of the storm. But further awakening the latent psychic power that is described to be a part of all Fenrisian's inhabitants would have made the story about the imperium surviving much less likely. Imagine every pack having at least one Rune priest as part of it. The wrath of the storm protecting each pack while it stripped the flesh from those that opposed it. Scary thought isnt it?

[Spacefrisian]

A good example being those who turned and joined Huron Blackheart.

 

 

And you believe that story?

 

Since when did the Wolves of Fenris leave such a ship to a wannabe chaos boy.