Why would a Space Wolf fall?

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

There are no examples of fallen space wolves in any verifiable source.

So, there is no canon to support fallen space wolves, what-so-ever.

Durfast...it states that all chapters have had fallen members. The Huron story,as stupid as it is...is Canon. Wolves have fallen.

 

Few Wolves want to admit it,but it is a fact.

 

Wrong, it cannot be canon if a source is not verifiable.

 

There are clear guidelines for the use of primary sources as anyone with a background in intelligence or academia will tell you.

[Marshal Rohr]

There are no examples of fallen space wolves in any verifiable source.

So, there is no canon to support fallen space wolves, what-so-ever.

Durfast...it states that all chapters have had fallen members. The Huron story,as stupid as it is...is Canon. Wolves have fallen.

 

Few Wolves want to admit it,but it is a fact.

 

Wrong, it cannot be canon if a source is not verifiable.

 

There are clear guidelines for the use of primary sources as anyone with a background in intelligence or academia will tell you.

[Legatus]

Oooh, a list of claims. Plus a list of counter claims. Cannot... resist...

 

 

Not to be hating, but lets' get this straight.

1. No Black Templar has fallen to chaos, because of their belief in the Emperor's awesomness.

2. Defended the Imperial Palce during the Heresy as the Imperial Fists First company, oh sorry, you were getting your buts kicked by the Thousand Sons tongue.gif

3. Far more troops than Space wolves

4. Far more belief in the Empeor

5. More honorable

6. Far more wins than Space Wolf chapter

7. Chaplain Grimaldus, enough said

8. Veterans of thousands of campaigns

9. Trained far more in close combat than a Snow Angel msn-wink.gif

10. IMPERIAL FISTS GENE SEED!

11. Never fought and fellow battle brethren or the Imperium

12. While oyu drink ale and beer and have a good time, we slay and hunt down the enemies of the empeor, what you should have already done if your so good.

Ayway, it's very feesible for a Space Wolf to fall to the Dark Powers because of their practices and fighting only for themselves.

1 Well,no proof of that to be had. In fact,canon clearly states that only the Grey Knights have never had a member fall to Chaos. So no..you fail on that. 0/1

2 Defended the Imperial Palace during the Heresy? Unless I am mistaken,the Black Templars weren't even around then. So either you are going for the benefit of multiple Chapters,or your sense of history is more screwed up then I thought.As for getting our butt's kicked by the Thousand Sons...was that before or after we Razed their home planet to the ground? I can never keep those straight. So again..Nope..Failing on that one too 0/2

3 Far more troops then the Space Wolves? *snickers* When Canon says we are the biggest Chapter this time around,you Fail on that too. Now you might have been remembering prior editions where Space Wolves were the smallest...so I will be generous and give you half marks on that one. .5/3

4 Far more belief in the Emperor. Well,guess what..You finally got one right. Space Wolves as a whole are far more concerned with the people of the Imperium being kept safe rather then the Emperor. Hey you finally got a point...now its 1.5/4

5 More Honorable. Tell ya what...Go around and ask every other chapter which of the two is more honorable,the Space Wolves or the Black Templars...You don't need to be a Psyker to predict how that one is going to turn out. So yep,failing again. 1.5/5

6 Far more wins then the Space Wolf Chapter. First off...We have had Great Wolves (Chapter commander to you) that have been alive and kicking ass for Russ and Emperor for longer then the Black Templars have been around. So we got another swing and a miss. 1.5/6

7 Chaplain Grimaldus...Ya I am gonna go out on a limb here and say "Who?" According to Canon,Logan Grimnir our great wolf is worshipped on thousands of worlds by the populace as a living saint second only to the emperor himself. And how that happened is because Logan Grimnir took his Wolves to those worlds and saved those inhabitants from certain destruction at the hands of every threat that came their way. So seriously...who is this Grimaldus guy. No joke I really do want to know. 1.5/7

8 Veterans of Thousands of Campaigns. We have active Wolves that have been alive longer then your entire chapter has been around. But I will give ya a half point on this because while it is accurate...we still have more.2/8...Hey...you clawed your way back up to 25% well done.

9 Trained more in close combat? Pffftt...Your average 10 year old Fenrisian woman child has fought more battles then half of your troops. Canon has Fenrisians coming into the world naked,screaming and covered in blood,and we pretty much stay that way our entire lives. We fight every day of our lives against a entire world that is doing everything it can to kill us...and all that happens before we are ever turned into Marines. What do you have..Battle simulators,training rooms. Yeah no question on this one. 2/9

10 Imperial fist Geneseed. Yep...so your second Gen...Copy of a Copy. Still not helping your case here...But as before..I will give you a half point because while accurate...your still second class in comparison. 2.5/10

11 Never fought fellow Battle Brethren or the Imperium. Yes and we have never stood by and allowed the slaughter of innocents. We have killed the guilty,and the evil...no matter what mask of purity they hid behind. We serve the Emperor and the Imperium as it needs to be,not according to the wants of the Adeptus. We Defend the Weak,support the Strong,avenge the Fallen and punish the Wicked. You...wear black,write depressing poetry and fill half of your Crusade ships with Hot Topic ™ shops. 2.5/11

12 We drink Ale and Beer and have fun while you punish the enemy's of the Emperor,what we should have allready done if we are so good. At this point,If I were in person,I would make a comment about Space Priests and the way they treat their Neophyte Altar Boys. But since I am neither there to see the expression on your face when I said it,there to duck out of the way of your angry swing and thus unable to claim self defense as I gleefully pounded you into pulp,I will refrain. What you should have said there is we drink ale and beer in between the times we are kicking the ass of any opponent that we come across. Most of our drinking is done in transit. We Wolves have been kicking the ass of the Emperor's enemys since before your Chapter was a glint in your Primarch Granddaddy's eye. At this point,all you Blind Templars do is follow the orders of the Adeptus. It was people like your chapter,and those your chapter serve that consigned a entire planet's worth of honorable fighters,those that had defended their homes against the incursions of Chaos to internment camps and forced sterilization.So survey says...2.5/12...Not such a good score for the Black Templars..Maybe they will have better luck next year against the Dark Angels.

1. Sources please? I am still not entirely sure that only the Grey Knights never had anyone fall to Chaos, since in the sources I checked it merely says "Their special training so far has been proven successful, as so far not one of their ranks has fallen to Chaos", which does not rule out that other Chpaters have had similar records (if someone knows a more definitive statement, let me know). Still, such claims for another Chapter need to be backed by sources. No point. BT - 0 / SW - 0

 

2. Yes, technically the "Black Templars", as in "the Chapter of the Imperial Fists Legion under the command of Sigismund", took part in the defense of the Imeprial Palace. BT - 1 / SW - 0

 

3. If there really is a quote saying the Space Wolves are the bigest Chapter, that's news to me. I could not find it after a quick browse through the 5th Edition Codex. I am going to be strict and doubt it, so the Templars are indeed still the largest "Chapter" (if that is anything to boast about). BT - 2 / SW - 0

 

4. I am not doubting the devotion of the Space Wolves, but the Black Templars do usually come across as more... zealous. BT - 3 / SW - 0

 

5. Honour is a theme for both Chapters. The Black templars with their "knightly" honour, the Space Wolves with their Warrior honour. I would call this a draw, unless someone knew of a particular quote highlighting his Chapters exceptional trait. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 0

 

6. This one cannot be backed. One might assume that, having gronw into a massive "Chapter" over the millenia the Black Templars Fight in more places at once so have more victories. But the Space Wolves were one of the top three Legions during the Great Crusade all while being one of the smallest Legions, so such a claim cannot easily be made. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 0

 

7. Who? Bjorn, Ragnar, Grimnar. Every player knows them. BT - 3 / SW - 1

 

8. That is probably true. For every First Founding or Second Founding Chapter. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 1

 

9. The Space Wolves were dedicated close combat specialists before the Black templars even got special rules. Their "close combat focus" comes from religious zeal and the will to punish the impure, while the Wolves' focus is based on themliving for glorious close combat. For the Black Templars it shows a lack of discipline and restraint, as they will break their battle lines and charge towards the enemy if provoked, while the Space Wolves have mastered the technique of jumping the enemy when he dares come to close to their formations. BT - 3 / SW - 2

 

10. The Imperial Fists gene-seed is a noble heritage. So is every other gene-seed. And the Imperial Fists' gene-seed is not even the purest. While the Space Wolves gene-seed has a few issues and is very dangerous, it also has a lot of awesome traits. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 2

 

11. Source? Remember the Ophidium gulf? To be fair, that was not initiated by the Templars. It is all to easy imagining the Templars being unleashed at an uncooperative Imperial force, though. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 2

 

12. One can certainly not blame the Space Wolves for a lack of action. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 2

 

 

The Black Templars come out on top in this particular line up of claims, simply because they happen to be larger. If that is an advantage to you then, yay. But they are keeping that asecret from the rest of the Imperium, so what's up with that? The Space Wolves are slightly over sized, but they don't care who knows it.

Overall, of the original 12 Claims only 3 can be made in favour of the Black templars. They can claim to have fought at the defense of the Imperial Palace, they are more devoted, and they are bigger. The Space Wolves can best them at 2 of the claims. They have the more famous heroes and are even more specialised at HtH. If you added the track record during the Great Crusade (since the Templars have one claim about the Heresy) then the Space Wolves with their top 3 spot among the Legions with the most victories would come even with 3 vs 3. The rest of the claims either cannot be backed or does not really distinguish the Black Templars from the other Chapters of legend.

 

 

I have never heard who was third place as far as winning streaks go, but I do know that DA were in second place. The UM were big and organized, not particularily brilliant tactically. Their pre-heresy record was not stellar.

Most Victories during the Great Crusade

 

1. Horus

 

2. Lion El'Jonson

 

3. Leman Russ

 

 

Most liberated Worlds during the Great Crusade

 

1. Roboute Guilliman*

 

2. Horus*

 

 

*The claim is made for Guilliman in the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. The claim is made for Horus in the Index Astartes Luna Wolves. I would count the two Codices as overruling one Index Astartes article, but the Luna Wolves' achievements during the Great Crusade are also questioned not only by the Index Astartes Raven Guard but also by the Index Astartes Luna Wolves itself.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

There are no examples of fallen space wolves in any verifiable source.

So, there is no canon to support fallen space wolves, what-so-ever.

Durfast...it states that all chapters have had fallen members. The Huron story,as stupid as it is...is Canon. Wolves have fallen.

 

Few Wolves want to admit it,but it is a fact.

 

Wrong, it cannot be canon if a source is not verifiable.

 

There are clear guidelines for the use of primary sources as anyone with a background in intelligence or academia will tell you.

I would think the Codexs would qualify as verifiable sources. And that is where the information is...both that All Chapters have had marines that have fallen to Chaos (Chaos Codex) and that Huron BlackWolf took the Fang of Fenris with the aid of a pack or so of Wolves that turned on their Brothers on the Bridge. That was in um...Page 59 of the Chaos Codex,account of the Badab War.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Oooh, a list of claims. Plus a list of counter claims. Cannot... resist...

 

 

Not to be hating, but lets' get this straight.

1. No Black Templar has fallen to chaos, because of their belief in the Emperor's awesomness.

2. Defended the Imperial Palce during the Heresy as the Imperial Fists First company, oh sorry, you were getting your buts kicked by the Thousand Sons tongue.gif

3. Far more troops than Space wolves

4. Far more belief in the Empeor

5. More honorable

6. Far more wins than Space Wolf chapter

7. Chaplain Grimaldus, enough said

8. Veterans of thousands of campaigns

9. Trained far more in close combat than a Snow Angel msn-wink.gif

10. IMPERIAL FISTS GENE SEED!

11. Never fought and fellow battle brethren or the Imperium

12. While oyu drink ale and beer and have a good time, we slay and hunt down the enemies of the empeor, what you should have already done if your so good.

Ayway, it's very feesible for a Space Wolf to fall to the Dark Powers because of their practices and fighting only for themselves.

1 Well,no proof of that to be had. In fact,canon clearly states that only the Grey Knights have never had a member fall to Chaos. So no..you fail on that. 0/1

2 Defended the Imperial Palace during the Heresy? Unless I am mistaken,the Black Templars weren't even around then. So either you are going for the benefit of multiple Chapters,or your sense of history is more screwed up then I thought.As for getting our butt's kicked by the Thousand Sons...was that before or after we Razed their home planet to the ground? I can never keep those straight. So again..Nope..Failing on that one too 0/2

3 Far more troops then the Space Wolves? *snickers* When Canon says we are the biggest Chapter this time around,you Fail on that too. Now you might have been remembering prior editions where Space Wolves were the smallest...so I will be generous and give you half marks on that one. .5/3

4 Far more belief in the Emperor. Well,guess what..You finally got one right. Space Wolves as a whole are far more concerned with the people of the Imperium being kept safe rather then the Emperor. Hey you finally got a point...now its 1.5/4

5 More Honorable. Tell ya what...Go around and ask every other chapter which of the two is more honorable,the Space Wolves or the Black Templars...You don't need to be a Psyker to predict how that one is going to turn out. So yep,failing again. 1.5/5

6 Far more wins then the Space Wolf Chapter. First off...We have had Great Wolves (Chapter commander to you) that have been alive and kicking ass for Russ and Emperor for longer then the Black Templars have been around. So we got another swing and a miss. 1.5/6

7 Chaplain Grimaldus...Ya I am gonna go out on a limb here and say "Who?" According to Canon,Logan Grimnir our great wolf is worshipped on thousands of worlds by the populace as a living saint second only to the emperor himself. And how that happened is because Logan Grimnir took his Wolves to those worlds and saved those inhabitants from certain destruction at the hands of every threat that came their way. So seriously...who is this Grimaldus guy. No joke I really do want to know. 1.5/7

8 Veterans of Thousands of Campaigns. We have active Wolves that have been alive longer then your entire chapter has been around. But I will give ya a half point on this because while it is accurate...we still have more.2/8...Hey...you clawed your way back up to 25% well done.

9 Trained more in close combat? Pffftt...Your average 10 year old Fenrisian woman child has fought more battles then half of your troops. Canon has Fenrisians coming into the world naked,screaming and covered in blood,and we pretty much stay that way our entire lives. We fight every day of our lives against a entire world that is doing everything it can to kill us...and all that happens before we are ever turned into Marines. What do you have..Battle simulators,training rooms. Yeah no question on this one. 2/9

10 Imperial fist Geneseed. Yep...so your second Gen...Copy of a Copy. Still not helping your case here...But as before..I will give you a half point because while accurate...your still second class in comparison. 2.5/10

11 Never fought fellow Battle Brethren or the Imperium. Yes and we have never stood by and allowed the slaughter of innocents. We have killed the guilty,and the evil...no matter what mask of purity they hid behind. We serve the Emperor and the Imperium as it needs to be,not according to the wants of the Adeptus. We Defend the Weak,support the Strong,avenge the Fallen and punish the Wicked. You...wear black,write depressing poetry and fill half of your Crusade ships with Hot Topic ™ shops. 2.5/11

12 We drink Ale and Beer and have fun while you punish the enemy's of the Emperor,what we should have allready done if we are so good. At this point,If I were in person,I would make a comment about Space Priests and the way they treat their Neophyte Altar Boys. But since I am neither there to see the expression on your face when I said it,there to duck out of the way of your angry swing and thus unable to claim self defense as I gleefully pounded you into pulp,I will refrain. What you should have said there is we drink ale and beer in between the times we are kicking the ass of any opponent that we come across. Most of our drinking is done in transit. We Wolves have been kicking the ass of the Emperor's enemys since before your Chapter was a glint in your Primarch Granddaddy's eye. At this point,all you Blind Templars do is follow the orders of the Adeptus. It was people like your chapter,and those your chapter serve that consigned a entire planet's worth of honorable fighters,those that had defended their homes against the incursions of Chaos to internment camps and forced sterilization.So survey says...2.5/12...Not such a good score for the Black Templars..Maybe they will have better luck next year against the Dark Angels.

1. Sources please? I am still not entirely sure that only the Grey Knights never had anyone fall to Chaos, since in the sources I checked it merely says "Their special training so far has been proven successful, as so far not one of their ranks has fallen to Chaos", which does not rule out that other Chpaters have had similar records (if someone knows a more definitive statement, let me know). Still, such claims for another Chapter need to be backed by sources. No point. BT - 0 / SW - 0

 

2. Yes, technically the "Black Templars", as in "the Chapter of the Imperial Fists Legion under the command of Sigismund", took part in the defense of the Imeprial Palace. BT - 1 / SW - 0

 

3. If there really is a quote saying the Space Wolves are the bigest Chapter, that's news to me. I could not find it after a quick browse through the 5th Edition Codex. I am going to be strict and doubt it, so the Templars are indeed still the largest "Chapter" (if that is anything to boast about). BT - 2 / SW - 0

 

4. I am not doubting the devotion of the Space Wolves, but the Black Templars do usually come across as more... zealous. BT - 3 / SW - 0

 

5. Honour is a theme for both Chapters. The Black templars with their "knightly" honour, the Space Wolves with their Warrior honour. I would call this a draw, unless someone knew of a particular quote highlighting his Chapters exceptional trait. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 0

 

6. This one cannot be backed. One might assume that, having gronw into a massive "Chapter" over the millenia the Black Templars Fight in more places at once so have more victories. But the Space Wolves were one of the top three Legions during the Great Crusade all while being one of the smallest Legions, so such a claim cannot easily be made. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 0

 

7. Who? Bjorn, Ragnar, Grimnar. Every player knows them. BT - 3 / SW - 1

 

8. That is probably true. For every First Founding or Second Founding Chapter. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 1

 

9. The Space Wolves were dedicated close combat specialists before the Black templars even got special rules. Their "close combat focus" comes from religious zeal and the will to punish the impure, while the Wolves' focus is based on themliving for glorious close combat. For the Black Templars it shows a lack of discipline and restraint, as they will break their battle lines and charge towards the enemy if provoked, while the Space Wolves have mastered the technique of jumping the enemy when he dares come to close to their formations. BT - 3 / SW - 2

 

10. The Imperial Fists gene-seed is a noble heritage. So is every other gene-seed. And the Imperial Fists' gene-seed is not even the purest. While the Space Wolves gene-seed has a few issues and is very dangerous, it also has a lot of awesome traits. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 2

 

11. Source? Remember the Ophidium gulf? To be fair, that was not initiated by the Templars. It is all to easy imagining the Templars being unleashed at an uncooperative Imperial force, though. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 2

 

12. One can certainly not blame the Space Wolves for a lack of action. No point. BT - 3 / SW - 2

 

 

The Black Templars come out on top in this particular line up of claims, simply because they happen to be larger. If that is an advantage to you then, yay. But they are keeping that asecret from the rest of the Imperium, so what's up with that? The Space Wolves are slightly over sized, but they don't care who knows it.

Overall, of the original 12 Claims only 3 can be made in favour of the Black templars. They can claim to have fought at the defense of the Imperial Palace, they are more devoted, and they are bigger. The Space Wolves can best them at 2 of the claims. They have the more famous heroes and are even more specialised at HtH. If you added the track record during the Great Crusade (since the Templars have one claim about the Heresy) then the Space Wolves with their top 3 spot among the Legions with the most victories would come even with 3 vs 3. The rest of the claims either cannot be backed or does not really distinguish the Black Templars from the other Chapters of legend.

 

 

I have never heard who was third place as far as winning streaks go, but I do know that DA were in second place. The UM were big and organized, not particularily brilliant tactically. Their pre-heresy record was not stellar.

Most Victories during the Great Crusade

 

1. Horus

 

2. Lion El'Jonson

 

3. Leman Russ

 

 

Most liberated Worlds during the Great Crusade

 

1. Roboute Guilliman*

 

2. Horus*

 

 

*The claim is made for Guilliman in the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. The claim is made for Horus in the Index Astartes Luna Wolves. I would count the two Codices as overruling one Index Astartes article, but the Luna Wolves' achievements during the Great Crusade are also questioned not only by the Index Astartes Raven Guard but also by the Index Astartes Luna Wolves itself.

By that you would have to give a point to the Wolves as well for that whole "Not only not getting butt kicked by Thousand sons,Killing their primarch and destroying their home world" As far as being the biggest..It has varied from Edition to Edition on whether Space Wolves were the Largest or the Smallest Chapter.

 

Also...you would use a group that split off from its Chapter,not a second founding as I originally thought...But those that abandoned the teachings of their Primarch to go their own way as exemplars of honor. Now we are not talking about a remnant of a Chapter remaining Loyal when the rest of their Chapter turned to Chaos...We are talking about Turning your back on a loyalist chapter,your Primarch and all his teachings. That doesn't strike me as the most honorable of actions. But hey...maybe they had reason.

[Marshal Rohr]

I SURE hope you arnt referring to the Templars as turning their backs on the Primarch....

 

When Leman Russ was around the Space Wolves were the baddest mother lovers in the galaxy, ferocious masters of personal combat who could go toe to toe with anyone and tear out their throat with their bare hands. Now... you ride wolves... and stick 'wolf' in front of everything. Where Leman used the wolf as a metaphor, the current Space Wolves use the wolf as a mascot....

 

 

So who really has strayed? The Black Knights who spend their entire lives fighting like the Astartes of old or the Wolf Men who spend their time in their halls feasting and counting their past deeds dearer than fighting to earn more?

 

Black Templars are the largest, most widespread, most ruthless, and most motivated. Now get back on topic and try to tell us why Space Wolves dont fall.

[Legatus]

As far as being the biggest..It has varied from Edition to Edition on whether Space Wolves were the Largest or the Smallest Chapter.

As far as I recall they are sometimes said to have been one of the smallest Legions, which was given in the 2nd Edition as a reason for why they were not divided more than once. Other than that they have allways been presented as oversized compared to other Chapters, without more detail or specific numbers being given.

 

 

Now get back on topic and try to tell us why Space Wolves dont fall.

As I have already said (and as have others), I don't like the thought of any loyalists turning to Chaos, much less any of the First Founding Marines. Unfortunately since 3rd Edition GW has promoted the idea more and more that there are the occasional First Founding marines that turn to Chaos. The 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines had examples of a Red Corsair Space Wolf and a Red Corsair Dark Angel (no Fallen Angel, a contemporary Dark Angel that had joined the Red Corsairs). It also had a squad of Red Corsair Crimson Fists, but at least they are not First Founding (still painfull to see).

Then there is that horrible story in the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines. But that is not the first story mentioning rogue Space Wolves. IIRC the 3rd Edition Codex Space Wolves made reference to Great Companies that have turned on the last page, but I cannot find my copy of it. Perhaps it merely refers to "Wolves that have recounted their oaths", which does not necessarily have to mean "chaos", like the 5th Edition Codex does. I think it was a bit more damning than thath, though. Does anyone happen to have the quote?

 

All in all, unfortunately I think there are more references to Space Wolves turning than to any other well known Chapter (disregarding the grave "Fallen" incident of the Dark Angels). Of course, that is still going to be extremely rare, and I still think the Red Corsairs would have to employ some kind of mind controll to make Space Wolves not only work for them but turn at their brothers at a moments notice.

[Marshal Rohr]

Legs, you know I wasnt talking to you :huh: .

[Legatus]

I still felt guilty dragging on about off topic stuff after someone had asked to go back on topic. :huh:

[hendrik]

I SURE hope you arnt referring to the Templars as turning their backs on the Primarch....

 

When Leman Russ was around the Space Wolves were the baddest mother lovers in the galaxy, ferocious masters of personal combat who could go toe to toe with anyone and tear out their throat with their bare hands. Now... you ride wolves... and stick 'wolf' in front of everything. Where Leman used the wolf as a metaphor, the current Space Wolves use the wolf as a mascot....

 

 

So who really has strayed? The Black Knights who spend their entire lives fighting like the Astartes of old or the Wolf Men who spend their time in their halls feasting and counting their past deeds dearer than fighting to earn more?

 

Black Templars are the largest, most widespread, most ruthless, and most motivated. Now get back on topic and try to tell us why Space Wolves dont fall.

you should note this feasting behaviour isn't that widespread as some of us make it believe. you should read some of the space wolves novels. it's stated quite clearly we only feast after a mayor campaign etc.

the space wolves never stopped fighting like the astartes of old actually.

about the wolf mascot thing. there are some of us who don't like the newly canis or thunderwolf cavalery. just wait until you templars get a new dex, who knows what you'll get. when you ask me space wolves are the most carying chapter around their(although the salamanders could claim that too).

while the black templars are without any doubt a great chapter i personally believe they just aren't that caring to the average imperium citizen.sure you guys conquered many planets but when it all comes down to it, who's the one really protecting every citizen? it always were and always will be the wolves of fenris who will! for Russ! For the wolftime!

 

now on topic;

I believe it's mentioned in some of the ragnar novels that the canis helix serves as a genetical resistance to chaos, the result of the genetic resistance is that you get a wulfen, a monster covered in fur, with long fangs and claws. uncontollable for anyone but a wolf lord or experienced wolf priest himself. sure a wulfen hasn't fallen to chaos but it is agrueable that he's gone renegade(in wolf's honour one of the space wolves turns wulfen,killing the IG commander and even some of his brothers. painfull as it is things like this do happen)

 

but tell me, honestly, how many marines but the space wolves could stay in the warp for 10000 years, unprotected to it's perils and still stay true and loyal? sure many of them suffer from beeing either wulf bitten or are even wulfen but still they continue doing what they did 10000 years ago. hunting and slaying the traitors.

[hendrik]

edit:double post

[Requiem of the Wolf]

I SURE hope you arnt referring to the Templars as turning their backs on the Primarch....

 

When Leman Russ was around the Space Wolves were the baddest mother lovers in the galaxy, ferocious masters of personal combat who could go toe to toe with anyone and tear out their throat with their bare hands. Now... you ride wolves... and stick 'wolf' in front of everything. Where Leman used the wolf as a metaphor, the current Space Wolves use the wolf as a mascot....

 

 

So who really has strayed? The Black Knights who spend their entire lives fighting like the Astartes of old or the Wolf Men who spend their time in their halls feasting and counting their past deeds dearer than fighting to earn more?

 

Black Templars are the largest, most widespread, most ruthless, and most motivated. Now get back on topic and try to tell us why Space Wolves dont fall.

Your Primarch made you Imperial Fists. You don't seem to be wearing that banner anymore. Your Templars are Second Founding..following Sigismund. So at that point is where your history starts. Fighting as Astartes of old? yeah...we been doing that all along...And we didn't bother lying about it.

 

Though I will admit calling you Inquisitorial Lapdogs was in error. I will give you that much.

 

As far as It goes...how about you show some proof that Black Templars never fall. I never said Space Wolves haven't fallen in the past...I simply said it was rare. It was your brothers assertion that Black Templars never fall. So until you can prove conclusively that they haven't,then the statement made in the Chaos codex about the root of corruption being able to take hold in any heart seems clear. The Grey knights have in their Codex how none of their members have ever fallen...How about you guys?

[Decoy]

Down, Requiem. Templar folk tend to make unabashed lies without consideration.

 

"We're the largest"

"We're the best in CC"

"We never fell to Chaos"

 

It's not their fault they're brainwashed and bitter because they're not a real (read; worthwhile) Chapter. If we had to fill out our ranks with Scouts because no one wants to (or is strong enough to) join up, we'd be bitter too. :D

[Legatus]

"We're the largest"

There is basis for that, though.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I would think the Codexs would qualify as verifiable sources. And that is where the information is...both that All Chapters have had marines that have fallen to Chaos (Chaos Codex) and that Huron BlackWolf took the Fang of Fenris with the aid of a pack or so of Wolves that turned on their Brothers on the Bridge. That was in um...Page 59 of the Chaos Codex,account of the Badab War.

 

 

Given the discrepancies between the account of the capture of the Wolf of Fenris in C:SW (p.20) and in C:CSM, and that the reporter in C:CSM, as a survivor of the battle, must have been in league chaos, the chaos version cannot, therefore, be taken as canon.

 

By its nature the story of the Wolf of Fenris was just an attempt to wind Space Wolf players up and, given the length of this thread, it has succeeded.

 

I am quite happy that no firm data has yet been presented to confirm the existence of fallen space wolves - that is not to say that they (in this fantasy world) do not exist, but that there is no firm evidence.

 

Once a name or something more than scurrilous rumour appears then it is worth worrying about.

[Legatus]

I would say a Space Wolves mini in the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines where the Imperial insignia have been defiled with Red Corsair markings is pretty damning evidence. The story in the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines about the Space Wolves joining the Red Corsairs is just a follow up on that, really.

Anyone have that 3rd Edition Codex Space Wolves quote about rogue Great Companies?

[Sarapham]

Your Primarch made you Imperial Fists. You don't seem to be wearing that banner anymore. Your Templars are Second Founding..following Sigismund. So at that point is where your history starts.

 

 

To actually defend the BT here, that has nothing to do with "turning their backs on Dorn" as it does that after the HH they were forced to by Mr. Guilliman, and simply the most zealous of the Imperial Fists gathered under Sigismund. By that qualification you would have to call the Wolf Brothers (RIP) turn-coats as well.

[Aeddon]

Anyone have that 3rd Edition Codex Space Wolves quote about rogue Great Companies?

I looked but couldn't find anything about rogue companies. Do you know where it is supposed to be found?

[Legatus]

It is on the last page, the inside of the cover, where the stone circle is described. The description of the blank stone refers to lost companies, but I think I remember it also mentions companies that betrayed the Chapter or something like that. Perhaps it is like the description in the 5th Edition Codex: Space Wolves that have "recounted their oaths of fealty".

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

It is on the last page, the inside of the cover, where the stone circle is described. The description of the blank stone refers to lost companies, but I think I remember it also mentions companies that betrayed the Chapter or something like that. Perhaps it is like the description in the 5th Edition Codex: Space Wolves that have "recounted their oaths of fealty".

 

These are GCs that have found themselves too far from the Fang to rejoin the Chapter within their live-spans, those who have recanted their oaths to the Great Wolf, but not the Alfather due to differences of opinion etc. None of them are traitors or fallen. Unlike Chapter Masters, the Great Wolf is the first among equals and Wolf Lords can do their own thing if they so wish (and they think their packs with follow them).

 

Unfortunately my 3.5 is in storage now so I can't reference the model you refer to, but don't forget that those tricky boys from the Alpha Legion will stoop to all kinds of subterfuge :rolleyes:

[Legatus]

Alpha Legion or mind control Sorcerers. Anything would be better than actual traitor First Founding Marines. :mellow:

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Your Primarch made you Imperial Fists. You don't seem to be wearing that banner anymore. Your Templars are Second Founding..following Sigismund. So at that point is where your history starts.

 

 

To actually defend the BT here, that has nothing to do with "turning their backs on Dorn" as it does that after the HH they were forced to by Mr. Guilliman, and simply the most zealous of the Imperial Fists gathered under Sigismund. By that qualification you would have to call the Wolf Brothers (RIP) turn-coats as well.

Actually I believe the Wolf Brothers were an actual second founding, IE a thousand new recruits,a thousand geneseeds,rather then a bunch of First founding marines changing their name. Though I think all the Templar's showing up is because of my much earlier comment about the Emperor's Champion parading around in a Pink tutu and threatening Horus with the Ruler of Admonition could have become Canon just as easy as the Wolves turning traitor on that ship,all it would have taken is for it to get past the editor.

 

Had I known that the Emperor's champion went on to lead the Black Templars...I would have likely used a different example of how things can become Canon. Instead of Pink,I would have likely said a Black tutu with shiny sequins.

[Black2Jack1]

Had I known that the Emperor's champion went on to lead the Black Templars...I would have likely used a different example of how things can become Canon. Instead of Pink,I would have likely said a Black tutu with shiny sequins.

 

What a great thing to have such grizzled battle brothers to show pups how its done!

*toasts*

[Marshal Rohr]

I SURE hope you arnt referring to the Templars as turning their backs on the Primarch....

 

When Leman Russ was around the Space Wolves were the baddest mother lovers in the galaxy, ferocious masters of personal combat who could go toe to toe with anyone and tear out their throat with their bare hands. Now... you ride wolves... and stick 'wolf' in front of everything. Where Leman used the wolf as a metaphor, the current Space Wolves use the wolf as a mascot....

 

 

So who really has strayed? The Black Knights who spend their entire lives fighting like the Astartes of old or the Wolf Men who spend their time in their halls feasting and counting their past deeds dearer than fighting to earn more?

 

Black Templars are the largest, most widespread, most ruthless, and most motivated. Now get back on topic and try to tell us why Space Wolves dont fall.

you should note this feasting behaviour isn't that widespread as some of us make it believe. you should read some of the space wolves novels. it's stated quite clearly we only feast after a mayor campaign etc.

the space wolves never stopped fighting like the astartes of old actually.

about the wolf mascot thing. there are some of us who don't like the newly canis or thunderwolf cavalery. just wait until you templars get a new dex, who knows what you'll get. when you ask me space wolves are the most carying chapter around their(although the salamanders could claim that too).

while the black templars are without any doubt a great chapter i personally believe they just aren't that caring to the average imperium citizen.sure you guys conquered many planets but when it all comes down to it, who's the one really protecting every citizen? it always were and always will be the wolves of fenris who will! for Russ! For the wolftime!

 

Yeah, the 'loving, caring' Space Wolves arn't the Space Wolves of the Heresy. In 40K civilians are a liability, if they wont fight, they dont deserve to live.

 

I SURE hope you arnt referring to the Templars as turning their backs on the Primarch....

 

When Leman Russ was around the Space Wolves were the baddest mother lovers in the galaxy, ferocious masters of personal combat who could go toe to toe with anyone and tear out their throat with their bare hands. Now... you ride wolves... and stick 'wolf' in front of everything. Where Leman used the wolf as a metaphor, the current Space Wolves use the wolf as a mascot....

 

 

So who really has strayed? The Black Knights who spend their entire lives fighting like the Astartes of old or the Wolf Men who spend their time in their halls feasting and counting their past deeds dearer than fighting to earn more?

 

Black Templars are the largest, most widespread, most ruthless, and most motivated. Now get back on topic and try to tell us why Space Wolves dont fall.

Your Primarch made you Imperial Fists. You don't seem to be wearing that banner anymore. Your Templars are Second Founding..following Sigismund. So at that point is where your history starts. Fighting as Astartes of old? yeah...we been doing that all along...And we didn't bother lying about it.

 

Though I will admit calling you Inquisitorial Lapdogs was in error. I will give you that much.

 

Our history started the moment Rogal Dorn was given command of the VII Legion. Space Wolves never fought like the Astartes of Old in the first place, I was using it as an example of our mindset and character, not comparing SW and BT, aside from the obvious comparison. We dont lie about our numbers either, we just dont bother to respond, we owe allegiance to no one save the Emperor, you would do well to remember it.

 

As far as It goes...how about you show some proof that Black Templars never fall. I never said Space Wolves haven't fallen in the past...I simply said it was rare. It was your brothers assertion that Black Templars never fall. So until you can prove conclusively that they haven't,then the statement made in the Chaos codex about the root of corruption being able to take hold in any heart seems clear. The Grey knights have in their Codex how none of their members have ever fallen...How about you guys?

 

The ONLY mention of Black Templars falling was in the White Dwarf article where a GW staffer from a retail store painted a Red Corsair to be a Templar. There was no attached in universe fluff, it was just a few models painted. I believe John Shaffers(sp?) awesome Badab Revenge army included a black and white armored marine, but no Chapter symbol was visible. These armies also included renegade Space Wolves. Nothing in the article mentioned their allegiance, AFAIR. Until we have a BL, Studio, FW, or online source stating that there is a traitor Black Templar it can only be assumed WE DONT KNOW if any have fallen.

 

"We're the largest"

...but it is obvious that they are far more numerous than the most conventional Chapters, although dispersed over a much wider area. If certain accounts are taken to be true, then they could even be as strong as five to six thousand Battle-Brethren in total

"We're the best in CC"

We do get re-rolls in CC, with the proper vow. Re-rolls have always indicated increased Close Combat skill. You jut have two attacks because of wargear... I'm just saying its a precedent.

 

"We never fell to Chaos"

The Black Templars Codex makes mention that we have no history of disloyalty in 10,000 years.

 

It's not their fault they're brainwashed and bitter because they're not a real (read; worthwhile) Chapter. If we had to fill out our ranks with Scouts because no one wants to (or is strong enough to) join up, we'd be bitter too. :P

That is certainly one way to look at it.

 

Your Primarch made you Imperial Fists. You don't seem to be wearing that banner anymore. Your Templars are Second Founding..following Sigismund. So at that point is where your history starts.

 

 

To actually defend the BT here, that has nothing to do with "turning their backs on Dorn" as it does that after the HH they were forced to by Mr. Guilliman, and simply the most zealous of the Imperial Fists gathered under Sigismund. By that qualification you would have to call the Wolf Brothers (RIP) turn-coats as well.

Actually I believe the Wolf Brothers were an actual second founding, IE a thousand new recruits,a thousand geneseeds,rather then a bunch of First founding marines changing their name. Though I think all the Templar's showing up is because of my much earlier comment about the Emperor's Champion parading around in a Pink tutu and threatening Horus with the Ruler of Admonition could have become Canon just as easy as the Wolves turning traitor on that ship,all it would have taken is for it to get past the editor.

 

Had I known that the Emperor's champion went on to lead the Black Templars...I would have likely used a different example of how things can become Canon. Instead of Pink,I would have likely said a Black tutu with shiny sequins.

 

No second founding was created from new marines, they were all Legion break offs.

[WolfGuardVortek]

Doesn't it state in the Demon Hunter Codex, that the Grey Knights are the only chapter to not have any of it's members fall to chaos?