Why would a Space Wolf fall?

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Yeah, the 'loving, caring' Space Wolves arn't the Space Wolves of the Heresy. In 40K civilians are a liability, if they wont fight, they dont deserve to live.

So women and children deserve to die in their beds because they cannot defend themselves.Good to know your armor matches your hearts.

If you ever needed to wonder why Space Wolves are better then the Templars...There you have it right there. The Emperor charged his Space Marines,his chosen sons,with the defense of the entire Imperium. You claim to revere him above all else,but you can't even get his commands right?

Space Wolves have allways defended those who could not defend themselves. Not because of a command from the Emperor. Not because a book written thousands of years ago says we should. Space Wolves have allways done this,because it is the right thing to do. And we will not let anyone or anything stand in the way of Protecting the citizens of the Imperium. The Inquisition almost made the mistake of taking the Great Wolf up on his offer of trying,over the sterilization and internment of the brave survivors of the first Armageddon war. He warned them then and there that if they ever did anything like that again,he would tear them apart with his bare hands,and every Wolf out there would follow him if he called. The Inquisition backed down because they knew,without a shadow of a doubt,that the Wolves would destroy their entire organization. It would have crippled the Wolves to do it,Not counting the fact that it would have left the Imperium greatly weakened. But to prevent an atrocity like that from being repeated..They would have done it. Thankfully,It wasn't required,and since then,the Inquisition has been a hell of a lot more careful in what they did when any Wolves were about. Just to clarify..It was over 1 million civilians that had taken up arms to defend their planet from a Chaos incursion. One that was only slowed by the actions of the Wolves and Logan Grimnir,and finally stopped by a combined assault of Logan's Wolves and 100 Grey Knights...Of which less then 10 survived. When the Daemonic horde was routed,and the Wolves had departed,The Inquisition came in,took every man,woman and child that had survived,those that had fought and bled for their homes,and gathered them up into forced labor camps. They were sterilized,and worked to death. And anyone that made mention of the Chaos incursion found themselves treated the same way.

 

Our history started the moment Rogal Dorn was given command of the VII Legion. Space Wolves never fought like the Astartes of Old in the first place, I was using it as an example of our mindset and character, not comparing SW and BT, aside from the obvious comparison. We dont lie about our numbers either, we just dont bother to respond, we owe allegiance to no one save the Emperor, you would do well to remember it.

 

The ONLY mention of Black Templars falling was in the White Dwarf article where a GW staffer from a retail store painted a Red Corsair to be a Templar. There was no attached in universe fluff, it was just a few models painted. I believe John Shaffers(sp?) awesome Badab Revenge army included a black and white armored marine, but no Chapter symbol was visible. These armies also included renegade Space Wolves. Nothing in the article mentioned their allegiance, AFAIR. Until we have a BL, Studio, FW, or online source stating that there is a traitor Black Templar it can only be assumed WE DONT KNOW if any have fallen.

 

We do get re-rolls in CC, with the proper vow. Re-rolls have always indicated increased Close Combat skill. You jut have two attacks because of wargear... I'm just saying its a precedent.

The only mention of Wolves falling is in that one story,which as I have said,wouldn't make sense for any Marine of any chapter to turn on his brothers under those circumstances. Though I will admit that you state that "You don't know if any have fallen" proves that you at least admit it could happen. Even if it were the rarest thing to ever occur,admitting it is technically possible tells me that you are looking at it logically. Nowhere in any post did I ever say or even hint that Marines' falling to Chaos was a regular or common thing.

 

As for the rerolls in CC...Yes you can work yourselves up into a Frenzy that lets you get re-rolls,due to your overwhelming seething hatred of your opponent. It is never mentioned as superior skill,but raw pure hatred given focus. We on the other hand will turn and meet any attack made on us at least halfway. We spring into hand to hand combat with a joy and eagerness unmatched anywhere else in the galaxy. Neither of those state a increased skill in hand to hand,just situational things that make us better then everyone else in our own ways. The thing that to my mind shows us to have a greater skill is that we allways have that ability. No Space Wolf will ever fail to at least attempt to meet any charge as it comes our way. Your Templars could focus their hatred in a different direction,and then you would not have this reroll.

 

Hmmm...odd,because our only Second Founding,the Wolf Brothers,had not been Space Wolves prior....Their circumstances of implantation is widely beleived to be why there Founding was plagued with such intense changes to the Canis Helix.

 

Doesn't it state in the Demon Hunter Codex, that the Grey Knights are the only chapter to not have any of it's members fall to chaos?

It does...But it doesn't reference any Chapter in particular,so it becomes a matter of "We don't know for sure"

[Aeddon]

Marshal2 Crusaders, I can understand your passion for your chosen chapter, you do their reputation of zeal credit. However, this thread was not created to discuss the Black Templar and their track record, it was to talk about the possibility of a Space Wolf falling to chaos. I'm not going to argue any of the points you brought up but I am suggesting that if you want to discuss your chapter's fealty than you should open a new topic with that in mind.

 

To everyone else, this is getting a bit off topic, can we either close this or get back on topic.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Astartes were charged with the CONQUEST of the GALAXY. This defending civilians nonsense just shows how far you have fallen. How many women and children died on Prospero? How much knowledge was lost when you burnt the libraries? You used to be US. We took up the mantle when you cast it aside for fuzzy feelings and popularity. You have lost what made you great.

 

 

The galaxy used to quake at the mention of the Space Wolves, now people rejoice knowing you come to free them from the responsibility of defending themselves.

[kittenofdeath]

The Astartes were charged with the CONQUEST of the GALAXY. This defending civilians nonsense just shows how far you have fallen. How many women and children died on Prospero? How much knowledge was lost when you burnt the libraries? You used to be US. We took up the mantle when you cast it aside for fuzzy feelings and popularity. You have lost what made you great.

 

 

The galaxy used to quake at the mention of the Space Wolves, now people rejoice knowing you come to free them from the responsibility of defending themselves.

 

I enjoy reading this thread, you're getting it quite off topic with the BT's v SW stuff, they will probably lock it if you continue, so please stop and take it elsewhere.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

The Astartes were charged with the CONQUEST of the GALAXY. This defending civilians nonsense just shows how far you have fallen. How many women and children died on Prospero? How much knowledge was lost when you burnt the libraries? You used to be US. We took up the mantle when you cast it aside for fuzzy feelings and popularity. You have lost what made you great.

 

 

The galaxy used to quake at the mention of the Space Wolves, now people rejoice knowing you come to free them from the responsibility of defending themselves.

Only a raider has the viewpoint of not defending what they conquer. How many women and children died on Prospero? Far less then would have died there and on Terra both had we not stopped the Thousand Sons. The Wolves would not intentionally kill non-combatants. How much heretical teachings were lost when we burnt those Libraries? Not enough unfortunately...But we destroyed everything that led the Sons to Chaos that we could. We were never you. We are,allways have been,and allways will be the Wolves of Russ,charged by the Emperor and our Primarch to defend the worlds of the Imperium and the people on them. You took up the mantle of the crusade that the emperor himself said was over. That does not make your actions any less honorable..But we hold true to what the Emperor wished of his Imperium. Not for popularity or fuzzy feelings...But because it is what is right. It is what is honorable.

 

The galaxy used to quake at the mention of the Space Wolves...Now only those who intend harm to the Imperium quake in fear. The innocent know they have nothing to fear from us.

 

Though they are right...This is off the subject horribly.

[Brother Rathul]

OK, I am going to end this.....

Sons of Russ, we must agree to disagree. Both of our chapters seve the Emperor and his Imperium, which is how it should be. There are ups and downs to Space Wolves and there are some ups and downs to Black Templars too. If you wish to continue this argument, start it in another topic. Considering the fact Marshal2 Crusaders and I are but two Templars in this endless sea of Space Wolves, come to our forum and will see who wins ;) (challenge). But as of now, this convesation will go back to the subject now.

P.S. I'm not Matt Ward, I ;) want to beat the ;) out of the guy, I live in Brandon Florida of the United States of America, so if you want to make a game, go right on ahead.

Brother Rathul-Let the endless crusade continue.

[Marshal Rohr]

Where would we take it? Maybe a mod will split it off for us, I dont want to rehash anything. What are we even arguing anyway? How far the Space Wolves have fallen? How the Templars are meanies and the Space Wolves arnt?

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Where would we take it? Maybe a mod will split it off for us, I dont want to rehash anything. What are we even arguing anyway? How far the Space Wolves have fallen? How the Templars are meanies and the Space Wolves arnt?

I think the original idea was what could make a Space Wolf fall. It eventually morphed into a argument about whether or not every chapter but the Grey Knights have had people fall. Then chapter pride got involved and things spiraled hard and fast out of control lol.

 

But I must agree with Brother Rathul..Both Chapters serve the Emperor and the Imperium differently,But that is how it should be.

[Schultzhoffen]

I haven't read the whole thread (way too long) but SWs have fallen. Some squad(s) turned on their Brothers when Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs attack SW Space Ship (Wolf of Fenris?). The Red Corsair's greatest prize to date. It makes no difference whether you actually LIKE this fluff or not. It's there.

 

You'd have to assume those Traitor SWs had been thinking about it for some time. Huron merely presented an opportunity. And, if it happened once it could happen again...

 

I'd think Fallen SWs would probably be geared towards Khorne.

 

Furthermore, you'd have to assume ALL Chapters (bar GKs) have units/individuals that have fallen. We've seen it time and again.

 

No point getting one's knickers in a knot over it!

[BlackSpike]

Just going to stick my oar in here and mention Pride, Arrogance, Paths Paved With Good Intentions, Desperation, Bitterness, amongst the many long, tortuous paths to Damnation.

 

I agree that all Astartes are difficult to Turn, but with histories measured in Millennia, The Dark Ones have the time and Guile to spread subtle seeds.

 

Be Pure. Be Vigilant. BEHAVE!

[Legatus]

I had checked the Grey Knights fluff a while ago, whether it really says that only the Grey Knights never had a member corrupted, but I have not been able to find such a quote. I only glanced over the general fluff in the Codex Daemonhunters and the Grey Knights Index Astartes, and both contain a similar description of their indoctrination methods, but that does not say that they are the only Chapter that has never had one of their succumb to Chaos. Perhaps it says that at some other point. If someone has a source that would be welcome.

Anyway, this is what it says on page 7 of the Codex Daemonhunters:

 

"To be a Grey Knight is to live a life of spartan purity, solemn meditation and earthly denial that strengthens the mind and armours the soul with faith. Such dedication is necessary if the grey Knights are to stand against the horrors of the Warp and, to date, such precautions have proven to be effective as not a single Grey Knight has faltered in battle or turned to Chaos."

 

While that might suggest that the Grey Knights are exceptional in that way, it does not quite state that no other Chapter does not also never had a member fall to Chaos. (quadruple negative, yikes!)

[WolfGuardVortek]

I could have sworn that it said something about that it was singular honor on the part of the grey knights.

[Gree]

Given the discrepancies between the account of the capture of the Wolf of Fenris in C:SW (p.20) and in C:CSM,

 

What discrepency? I have read both sources in both codices and I don't see any discrepency at all.

 

and that the reporter in C:CSM, as a survivor of the battle, must have been in league chaos, the chaos version cannot, therefore, be taken as canon.

 

Who says the reporter was a Chaos Space Marine? I thought it was written from a neutral third person view.

[Legatus]

I think the discrepancy is that the Codex Space Wolves does not mention any Space Wolves turning on their brother and swearing allegiance to Huron Blackheart.

[Gree]

I think the discrepancy is that the Codex Space Wolves does not mention any Space Wolves turning on their brother and swearing allegiance to Huron Blackheart.

 

That's not really a discrepancy. The mention in the Space Wolf Codex was a very abbriviated version of the Chaos account, considering it was only a small blurb in the Wolf codex. There is nothing in the Wolf account to disprove the Chaos account at all.

[whitewolfmxc]

I would say a Space Wolves mini in the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines where the Imperial insignia have been defiled with Red Corsair markings is pretty damning evidence. The story in the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines about the Space Wolves joining the Red Corsairs is just a follow up on that, really.

Anyone have that 3rd Edition Codex Space Wolves quote about rogue Great Companies?

 

 

many have the misconception that rogue = Chaos , its not . Its simply "Hey i dont like how you do things in the Fang Logan , so im going to take my company and fight elsewhere , you can go get yourself another new company with some other guy who likes listening to you"

 

It doesnt mean they turn chaos or even against the imperium / Russ / Big M, in fact on the matter no where in the SW codex says these companies ever turned chaos (again resent thier oath to the great wolf not = to chaos)

[Grey Mage]

The Astartes were charged with the CONQUEST of the GALAXY. This defending civilians nonsense just shows how far you have fallen. How many women and children died on Prospero? How much knowledge was lost when you burnt the libraries? You used to be US. We took up the mantle when you cast it aside for fuzzy feelings and popularity. You have lost what made you great.

 

 

The galaxy used to quake at the mention of the Space Wolves, now people rejoice knowing you come to free them from the responsibility of defending themselves.

The emperor charged us with conquering the galaxy yes, but he also charged us with protecting it from all enemies- external and internal.

 

If you cant hold what you take then your not conquering anything. If you cant give security to the planets youve brought to the emperor then youll never achieve compliance. You will in short, fail. Every Space Wolf has already given the ultimate sacrifice to join the emperors cause, and knows the value of doing it again- we will not fight for nothing. The emperors cause is not some blind destruction, that is the path of chaos.

 

As for the responsibility of defending oneself, you should ask the men and women of cadia what they feel about that, and the joy in know the wolves come to their aid.

[Arioch]

This topic was just getting fun! Black Templars and Spacewolfs ripping eachother apart- great stuff! (Grabs popcorn and cola). Just remember I secretly vote for you wolves :)

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I think the discrepancy is that the Codex Space Wolves does not mention any Space Wolves turning on their brother and swearing allegiance to Huron Blackheart.

 

That's not really a discrepancy. The mention in the Space Wolf Codex was a very abbriviated version of the Chaos account, considering it was only a small blurb in the Wolf codex. There is nothing in the Wolf account to disprove the Chaos account at all.

 

Ah, well, if you are determined to read it that way then you will, but think about it logically.

 

There is nothing to support the chaos version either, therefore, it remains unsubstantiated.

 

Moreover, if you read through all the various editions of C:SW, you will see that the fluff is as open about defeats as victories. Most importantly, breaches of honour and treachery are particularly remembered.

 

So, with this in mind, surely such treachery would burn in the collective memory of the Fang and a Great Hunt or suchlike would have been dispatched to bring the oath-breakers to account. Oaths and loyalty are themes that run at the core of the fluff, yet there is nothing about it at all in the one codex in which it should be most recorded - C:SW. That would stand out as out of character to anyone with more than a passing knowledge of the Space Wolves.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

No Space Marine, Wolf or otherwise, is immune to the lure of Chaos. Even the Warmaster, second greatest of the Emperor's most cherished sons (Russ of course being the greatest) was turned from his first love and seduced by the desire for power. They must always guard against the curse that afflicts those who have ascended the highest - hubris.

 

Marines stand above mortal men, raised by technology and the link they share with their Primarch and beyond him the Emperor himself. If ever they forget that they were created to serve and protect mankind, those gifts they were given will provide the means to damn them for eternity.

 

C. S. Lewis described pride as the only truly devilish sin, because whilst the other sins allow for, or even encourage, some community of sinners, the proud seek no such community. Indeed their position is one of total enmity, they stand with fist raised against God and man. Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven, is their motto.

 

I think that that is the imagery that the GW writers tapped into when they created the 40k myth. The imagery of the brightest angel falling into darkness by his own will is one that resonates in the deepest levels of the human identity.

 

However bad fluff that depicts a few Wolves turning against their pack and following some upstart renegade doesn't really make the case.

[Legatus]

There is nothing to support the chaos version either, therefore, it remains unsubstantiated.

A story does not need to be veryfied by two or three other unrelated sources in order to be canon. If it is in a Codex, it's canon. The question then is whether there is a reason to doubt the account given in that story, and I do agree that the Space Wolves account not mentioning the defecting Wolves, while not strictly speaking a contradition, is a basis for doubt, as that would be one of the most important elements of the story and should have been mentioned in the Space Wolves account as well.

 

I still go with "mind control sorcery". If I keep repeating that, maybe it will spread and at some point will be mistaken for canon where no one remembers the source. :D

[Lord Ragnarok]

Let 's end the off topic discussion between BT's and SW's. This is not a request.

[Quillen]

I SURE hope you arnt referring to the Templars as turning their backs on the Primarch....

 

When Leman Russ was around the Space Wolves were the baddest mother lovers in the galaxy, ferocious masters of personal combat who could go toe to toe with anyone and tear out their throat with their bare hands. Now... you ride wolves... and stick 'wolf' in front of everything. Where Leman used the wolf as a metaphor, the current Space Wolves use the wolf as a mascot....

 

 

So who really has strayed? The Black Knights who spend their entire lives fighting like the Astartes of old or the Wolf Men who spend their time in their halls feasting and counting their past deeds dearer than fighting to earn more?

 

Black Templars are the largest, most widespread, most ruthless, and most motivated. Now get back on topic and try to tell us why Space Wolves dont fall.

 

 

Oh, no you didn't!!!! lol

 

Ok your guys are not Imperial Fists and you do not follow the teaching of your primarch. You have no Librarians for starters. No Pskyers at all. You do not follow the Codex Astrates. You have your own squads and units. So your different there.

 

Basicly your not like Imperial Fists at all. You were formed from the guys that followed your leader. You had different beliefs intirely.

 

 

We follow the exact ways of Russ. New units which were added this time around does not mean we are not fihting as Russ saw fit. It means they had an Idea for a new unit type.

 

So that is a load of hogwash.

 

 

You last line cracks me up. Largest? Yes you have alot of crusades. All of them lack alot of Marine gear and fight in unorthadox ways. As a Wolf I commend your ability to find new ways to get to and kill the enemies of Man. I have 2 Land Raider Crusaders myself. But having a bunch of seprate units scattered across the Galaxy all following unit organization different from what your Primarch was forced to embrace, does not make you best. Or super specail.

 

Ruthless? Well that is indeed something we will not see eye to eye on. Ruthless is not a good thing. It's usually used for someone that does atrocities against the innocent and then say the ends justify the means. No they do not. The Emperor's will is what needs to be justified. He never ment for the common person to suffer for a few selfish self-centered elites on Earth that was. He wanted to unit humanity and rebuild what was lost. Not burn whole cities looking for witches. And that is the only real difference that matters.

 

As to Motivated? Boy don't get me started. I follow the teaching of Russ and all his retainers. Our Stories have been passed down for generations from the begining. We have an Ancient one that saw Russ and fought by his side. Helping man become what he was ment to be is all important to me. Defending him is my goal. And I am so motivated that when those pesky little murders show up in my system tring to find excusses to bully, beat, and murder in the name of the Inquisition, I spank their nappy little bottoms and send them on their way.

 

I am a wolf, not a lap-dog that has forgotten why we are here and what we should strive for. I don't murder women and children for the Inquisition and say, "well the ends justify the means." No, I rip those peoples throats out. So tell me I am not Motivated as much as you.

 

I am sure the Inquisition thinks it needs it's pet mad dogs, but this old wolf thinks we could do without those that kill mindlessly and don;t remember our true perpose here.

 

 

 

As to the point of all this, before we started showing teeth and marking territory, Yes we have had Battle Brothers fall from grace. It happens. It's just really rare for us. See we search the minds of each new pup and see if he will fall for the temptaition of chaos before he is ever allowed to become one of us. Rune Priests dig deep in the mind and tempt. If they are truely tempted then they are rejected.

 

 

As to this story everyone mentions in some outlawed tome of knowlesge on the ruinous powers, don't believe everything the Devil tells you. He is the Devil after all. And saying those loyal betrayed their own would hurt us. And make some of the younger pups snap. Which would only make a Devil smile more.

 

I can only say the Crusier is lost. And the words of traitors is never to be believed. Reading Out lawed books can get bad people to burn you for being a heritic or witch. I believe they have boys in Black and white power armor to do that for them. lol

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. Sorry Rag did not see your post. I am done.

 

Ooops Rag, did not see your post.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Chill out Quillen. :down:

 

Remember we're grown men playing with plastic army men. Keep some perspective.

[Hfran Morkai]

To be perfectly honest I'm not even sure no Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos, there's just no record and any such event would be vehemently denied, even more so than some people denying fallen in this thread :down:

 

There are several reasons, which have been stated for members of any chapter to fall.

 

What I don't get is why the loyalist Wolves in the Huron story didn't detonate the engines, that would put a dampener on Huron's day. (Note I've not read the story)