Why would a Space Wolf fall?

[Walter Payton]

The fact that there are no direct 'canon' examples of Space Wolves falling to Chaos (aside from the Wolf of Fenris story which is, like it or not, written in a Codex) is of no relevance whatsoever.

 

The fact that every chapter has had members fall is made clear in Codex: Grey Knights. The wording of the passage makes it perfectly clear that only the Grey Knights can claim to be incorruptible. Are Wolves susceptible to Chaos? Yes. Is it commonplace for them to fall. No.

 

After all, as far as I am aware there has never been a direct canon reference to a Chaos Ultramarine. Do I believe that Ultramarines are immune to Chaos? No.

 

I love the logic some of you all are using, the accounts aren't canon because they aren't rewritten in multiple sources? Seriously? Well, thunderwolves were never mentioned before this last codex, so I guess due to a "lack of corroboration" those don't exist either. Oh and it's blatantly obvious that the story is told from a third person omniscient standpoint as whenever anything is written from the standpoint of an in-universe character it is made abundantly clear. Just admit it guys, it's canon and your chapter is not the awesome always loyal Mary Sue Space Vikings you want them to be.

 

As for how it happened, I really think that the long term corruption thing is the most likely. I really don't see a Blood Claw accidentally shooting a fellow Wolf really causing other Blood Claws to begin gunning down their brothers. If anything that sounds even more absurd than Chaos mind control or whatever else, yeah friendly fire happens but the fact that a bunch of astartes that had nothing to do with the original accidental shot would begin killing their comrades at the drop of a hat is hard to swallow. More likely these were disaffected and bitter individuals that at some point communed with the chaos powers (perhaps mistaking them for nature spirits or something) and were over the course of decades turned against their oaths and brothers, having probably been granted subtle gifts and protection along the way. Then, when the Corsairs show up, the Dark Gods call in their debts and collect.

 

Quoted for truth.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Glee, you can also bring to attention something or 'highlight' it by omitting it. ^_^

 

As to the rest of your post, I fear that the are no points I can present that you will not try to refute - on principle.

 

However, I'm sure that Professor Crouch will be delighted to hear that there is a new expert in our field and that his peer-reviewed work is hogwash :lol:

[Gree]

Glee, you can also bring to attention something or 'highlight' it by omitting it. ^_^

 

It's Gree not Glee. This is the second time you have misspelled my name.

 

And highlighting things is the opposite of not including them.

 

As to the rest of your post, I fear that the are no points I can present that you will not try to refute - on principle.

 

Not really, if there is something I see as wrong I will call it out.

 

However, I'm sure that Professor Crouch will be delighted to hear that there is a new expert in our field and that his peer-reviewed work is hogwash :lol:

 

I never said his work was incorrect. I was simply pointing out the many, many nobles in the Middle Ages who did not aspire to the ideals of chivalry.

 

Not to mention the knights back then did not seemingly swear oaths 24/7 like the Griffons did.

[Legatus]

Off T:

The fact that every chapter has had members fall is made clear in Codex: Grey Knights. The wording of the passage makes it perfectly clear that only the Grey Knights can claim to be incorruptible.

I would still contest that, untill someone has a more definitive passage. All that passage says is that the method of the Grey Knighst definitely works. That is not to say that some other method employed by another Chapter may not also work, even if it is more or less implied.

 

On T:

There is one prominient Chapter that is in several sources credited with exceptional loyalty, but I am not so foolish as to actually point out that Chapter. ^_^ If I was asked which of the big four was especially difficult to turn I would put the Dark Angels very high up there. The Dark Angels have a personal vendetta against traitor Marines. They are more conscious about the threat of corruption, and are brooding about such issues and where it lead them all day. As a result it will be much harder then to turn them.

As for Space Wolves, I am still not convinced by any source that the Canis Helix has any warding properties, and unfortunately there are more sources with Space Wolves recanting their oaths or wearing Chaos iconography than for the average promoted Chapter. The 3rd and 5th Edition Space Wolves Codices mention Wolves turning away from the Chapter, even if not necessarily to Chaos. The 3.5 and 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines refer to actual Chaos Space Wolves (the 3.5 Codex via a SW Red Corsair mini, the 4th Ed. Codex via the Wolf of Fenris story). I cannot recall from the top of my head any references to rogue Imperial Fists or Blood Angels, for example (well, maybe in the "Bloodquest" comics).

[Walter Payton]

Knights in the Middle Ages were very selective in their appliance of chivalric ideals. They were more than content to beat, pillage and murder those who were 'outwith' the strictures of chivalric code- look at the capture of Jerusalem in the First Crusade, and the subsequent massacre. It was not a case of those dullard, unwashed peasants slaughtering women and children, the Knights were there too, and committed atrocities every bit as evil.

 

Wiki article (unfortunately).

[Walter Payton]

Off T:

The fact that every chapter has had members fall is made clear in Codex: Grey Knights. The wording of the passage makes it perfectly clear that only the Grey Knights can claim to be incorruptible.

I would still contest that, untill someone has a more definitive passage. All that passage says is that the method of the Grey Knighst definitely works. That is not to say that some other method employed by another Chapter may not also work, even if it is more or less implied.

 

It states that the Grey Knights are 'unique' in that no member has fallen.

 

Unique (from Dictionary.com):

 

existing as the only one or as the sole example; single; solitary in type or characteristics: a unique copy of an ancient manuscript.

 

Emphasis is mine.

 

To me, this indicates that the Grey Knights, only the Grey Knights and no-one but the Grey Knights is immune (or has proven to be immune thus far, depending on how one views it) to the wiles of Chaos.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Knights in the Middle Ages were very selective in their appliance of chivalric ideals. They were more than content to beat, pillage and murder those who were 'outwith' the strictures of chivalric code- look at the capture of Jerusalem in the First Crusade, and the subsequent massacre. It was not a case of those dullard, unwashed peasants slaughtering women and children, the Knights were there too, and committed atrocities every bit as evil.

 

Wiki article (unfortunately).

 

As always, it's a bit more complicated then that as the First Crusade predates the use of the word 'chivalry' - this turned up in the vernacular between 1280 and 1310.

 

Moreover, there's a difference between having a code and living by it - try the link to Crouch I gave earlier

 

 

 

Glee, you can also bring to attention something or 'highlight' it by omitting it. ^_^

 

It's Gree not Glee. This is the second time you have misspelled my name.

 

My apologies on the typos, but even taking account of the nature of this medium, it really seems to be getting petty now.

[Gree]

Glee, you can also bring to attention something or 'highlight' it by omitting it. ^_^

 

It's Gree not Glee. This is the second time you have misspelled my name.

 

My apologies on the typos, but even taking account of the nature of this medium, it really seems to be getting petty now.

 

Not really, I expect a basic amount of attention given to names at least.

[Legatus]

It states that the Grey Knights are 'unique' in that no member has fallen.

Ah, yes, that would be more definitive. I was merely looking in the basic Grey Knight description on page 6 and 7 of the Codex Daemonhunters. What page is that statement on, if you don't mind me asking? Or maybe I just missed the line when looking over the description on those pages...

[Adam_R]

Mud Throwing aside. Space Wolves like all Astartes are post-human, with the same psychological and subconscious flaws as men, and Chaos knows the hearts of men.

 

Greed, Pride, Instincts and Impulses can all be deployed to manipulate them and their though processes to turn them.

 

William King's "Space Wolf" has an interesting section just after Ragnar has been implanted with the Canis Helix and in a very Jungian way is consistently confronted by his Shadow Self in a dream-state, failing to come to terms with it in his quest for Individuation results in death, dispare, madness and Wulfenness. Perhaps it is this quest for Individuation which leaves Space Wolves particularily resistent to Chaos, since it cannot call on their sub-conscious to turn them because they have already reached a state of wholeness.

[Grey Mage]

Mud Throwing aside. Space Wolves like all Astartes are post-human, with the same psychological and subconscious flaws as men, and Chaos knows the hearts of men.

 

Greed, Pride, Instincts and Impulses can all be deployed to manipulate them and their though processes to turn them.

 

William King's "Space Wolf" has an interesting section just after Ragnar has been implanted with the Canis Helix and in a very Jungian way is consistently confronted by his Shadow Self in a dream-state, failing to come to terms with it in his quest for Individuation results in death, dispare, madness and Wulfenness. Perhaps it is this quest for Individuation which leaves Space Wolves particularily resistent to Chaos, since it cannot call on their sub-conscious to turn them because they have already reached a state of wholeness.

That makes alot of sense actually, and reinforces the reasoning on why holy folk tend to be a bit more resistant to such things, as the path to spiritual enlightenment forces similar questions upon you.

[Priest33]

A Space Wolf would fall if his beer was hot and his mutton was frozen, his fav fur cape was left in the mud and his axe was stolen by a grot. All these things would make a space wolf fall to Chaos.

 

 

In all seriousness a Space Wolf has just as much chance to fall to the lure of chaos as anyone else and even if it hasent been written about im sure its happened before in our fake little fantasy universe, its never been stated that space wolves are abnormaly resistant to chaos that I know of and if it has I'd like to see full proof with page numbers and full quotes please.

[whitewolfmxc]

A Space Wolf would fall if his beer was hot and his mutton was frozen, his fav fur cape was left in the mud and his axe was stolen by a grot. All these things would make a space wolf fall to Chaos.

 

 

In all seriousness a Space Wolf has just as much chance to fall to the lure of chaos as anyone else and even if it hasent been written about im sure its happened before in our fake little fantasy universe, its never been stated that space wolves are abnormaly resistant to chaos that I know of and if it has I'd like to see full proof with page numbers and full quotes please.

 

 

Two post above you is a good start , its stated many times in the Ragnar books by William king that Ragnar has been tempted by Chaos many times and every time his inner wulfen takes in to fight it

 

and just by the fact that the whole SW 13th company is in the warp for 10000 years and are still loyal to Russ and Big M is a solid prof that its harder to corrupt a SW cause of the special gene seed organ (Canis helix) they have

 

 

This proves why theres so many Wulfens in the 13th company , you get chaos influenced , your inner wulfen fights it , the more you let it fight the more chance of you "losing" to the wulfen hence you turn into a wulfen yourself

 

but of course that doesnt mean they wont turn chaos for sure , just harder to .

[Marshal Rohr]

Two post above you is a good start , its stated many times in the Ragnar books by William king that Ragnar has been tempted by Chaos many times and every time his inner wulfen takes in to fight it

 

and just by the fact that the whole SW 13th company is in the warp for 10000 years and are still loyal to Russ and Big M is a solid prof that its harder to corrupt a SW cause of the special gene seed organ (Canis helix) they have

 

No, its not solid evidence at all. The 13th Company is about as far from Imperial Kosher as it gets, and if you think they are OK, your wrong. They have mutated, and spent more time in the EoT than any other loyalist, and they LOOK LIKE IT.

 

 

This proves why theres so many Wulfens in the 13th company , you get chaos influenced , your inner wulfen fights it , the more you let it fight the more chance of you "losing" to the wulfen hence you turn into a wulfen yourself

 

A Wulfen is BAD. Its a bad state to be in. The Death Company/Wulfen/Weregeld/etc are all BAD. It doesnt matter how loyal you are, mutation is bad. M'Kay.

[Grey Mage]

Two post above you is a good start , its stated many times in the Ragnar books by William king that Ragnar has been tempted by Chaos many times and every time his inner wulfen takes in to fight it

 

and just by the fact that the whole SW 13th company is in the warp for 10000 years and are still loyal to Russ and Big M is a solid prof that its harder to corrupt a SW cause of the special gene seed organ (Canis helix) they have

 

No, its not solid evidence at all. The 13th Company is about as far from Imperial Kosher as it gets, and if you think they are OK, your wrong. They have mutated, and spent more time in the EoT than any other loyalist, and they LOOK LIKE IT.

 

 

This proves why theres so many Wulfens in the 13th company , you get chaos influenced , your inner wulfen fights it , the more you let it fight the more chance of you "losing" to the wulfen hence you turn into a wulfen yourself

 

A Wulfen is BAD. Its a bad state to be in. The Death Company/Wulfen/Weregeld/etc are all BAD. It doesnt matter how loyal you are, mutation is bad. M'Kay.

They still arent traitors. They still havent fallen to chaos. A SW can become a wulfen without any chaos taint at all, just like a blood angel can succumb to the black rage.

 

Im sure the inquisition would agree with you- mutation is bad- but ALL space marines, wulfen or not, are mutants. So are Navigators, Ogryns, and Ratlings.

[Marshal Rohr]

Two post above you is a good start , its stated many times in the Ragnar books by William king that Ragnar has been tempted by Chaos many times and every time his inner wulfen takes in to fight it

 

and just by the fact that the whole SW 13th company is in the warp for 10000 years and are still loyal to Russ and Big M is a solid prof that its harder to corrupt a SW cause of the special gene seed organ (Canis helix) they have

 

No, its not solid evidence at all. The 13th Company is about as far from Imperial Kosher as it gets, and if you think they are OK, your wrong. They have mutated, and spent more time in the EoT than any other loyalist, and they LOOK LIKE IT.

 

 

This proves why theres so many Wulfens in the 13th company , you get chaos influenced , your inner wulfen fights it , the more you let it fight the more chance of you "losing" to the wulfen hence you turn into a wulfen yourself

 

A Wulfen is BAD. Its a bad state to be in. The Death Company/Wulfen/Weregeld/etc are all BAD. It doesnt matter how loyal you are, mutation is bad. M'Kay.

They still arent traitors. They still havent fallen to chaos. A SW can become a wulfen without any chaos taint at all, just like a blood angel can succumb to the black rage.

 

Im sure the inquisition would agree with you- mutation is bad- but ALL space marines, wulfen or not, are mutants. So are Navigators, Ogryns, and Ratlings.

 

Well, how mutated can you be if the EMPEROR made you from his flesh. Sure by modern standards, and when thinking about them in an out of universe context they are mutated and altered beyond human, but in universe there is nothing closer to the Emperor for a normal person than a Space Marine. The Inquisitor who finds himself bold enough to call a marine a mutant to his face is likely to be killed outright.

 

As for the 13th Company. Right, Lysander wasnt a traitor and he was held for 1,000 years. But everyone will agree becoming a Wulfen isnt good, and is dangerous to how outsiders view the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves, like every other Chapter, whether you like it or not, are still susceptible to being wiped out without the Imperium so much as blinking. You are tied to ONE PLANET. They know where to find you. That weakness would be your undoing, sure some may escape and become the most badass renegades still fighting for the Emperor, but your homeworld and brash nature will be your downfall should the time ever come. Mighty as you are, you are still nothing compared to the Chaos Legions and even they are pushed off of worlds by the Imperial War Machine.

[Grey Mage]

Indeed, the warmachine comprised of the Space Wolves, 100 Grey Knights, and some imperial gaurd :lol:.

 

Still doesnt mean theyve fallen to chaos though. No one said theyre pretty, no one said theyre paragons of virtue, but the fact remains theyre still not fallen to chaos.

 

And there are sources that show that many humans dont agree with your assessment, and that they DO think of space marines as mutants- and if they werent so desperately needed theyd wipe them all out if they could.

[Marshal Rohr]

Falling to Chaos is less how you view your actions, and more how everyone else views you. The Thousand Sons fell with good intentions and thought themselves loyal.

[Grey Mage]

Falling to Chaos is less how you view your actions, and more how everyone else views you. The Thousand Sons fell with good intentions and thought themselves loyal.

Nah, some of them knew what was going on and Magnus certainly knew what he did when he made his final bargain.

 

Falling to chaos is a quite literal thing- you are now chaos' :D . You do what they want, you worship their gods, and you fight under their names. You might slide in with good intentions, but once your there your there.

 

If the 13nth company was going to be there, theyd have been screaming 'blood for the blood god' 5,000 years ago.

 

You can be veiwed as alot of things without actually being them. I have curly hair below my shoulders- alot of people perceive me as a drug dealer and a hippy, but that doesnt make me one. Will the truth keep me from being harassed? No. Will it get me a cushy office job? No. Does it mean Ill pass a drug test with flying colors? Yes.

 

In the same way the 13nth company are not followers of the chaos gods, not even in a half-arsed kind of way like the Iron Warriors, they just happen to look the part.

[Marshal Rohr]

Looking the part is miles ahead of some of the stuff others have been killed for.

 

 

They may not feel they have been corrupted, but they still have had issues with rampant mutation, despite the fact its an accepted mutation in the Chapter. They wear and bear the arms and armor of Chaos marine. Use of Chaos artifacts is a no no. They travel through the warp unprotected, which is also something regular loyalists DONT do.

 

Corruption isnt always a big flag, sometimes you dont even know youre the bad guy, but if the Chapter welcomes the 13th company back more than the Inquisition will be upset.

[Grey Mage]

Looking the part is miles ahead of some of the stuff others have been killed for.

 

 

They may not feel they have been corrupted, but they still have had issues with rampant mutation, despite the fact its an accepted mutation in the Chapter. They wear and bear the arms and armor of Chaos marine. Use of Chaos artifacts is a no no. They travel through the warp unprotected, which is also something regular loyalists DONT do.

 

Corruption isnt always a big flag, sometimes you dont even know youre the bad guy, but if the Chapter welcomes the 13th company back more than the Inquisition will be upset.

Of course theyd be upset- but then again, theyre already upset. The SWs dont always play nice. Its got nothing to do with being traitors though.

 

Rampant chaos mutation, ala the soul drinkers is not the same as a large number of wulfen. Just like theres a difference between an Ogryn and a Plague Ogryn.

 

As for chaos artifacts.... well, the inquisition uses them, as do other marine chapters, and more than one marine would slam in a clip from a traitors bolter if they had to. Use of xeno-tech or warp items doesnt automatically make you a traitor, it just gets people edgy.

 

Lastly, but perhaps more importantly- it doesnt matter if people have been killed for it, it doesnt make it right, accurate, or correct. Someone can in fact be punished for something they didnt do, and Im sure it happens all the time in the dark depths of the 41rst millennium- that doesnt mean the punished are actually criminals, just convicts.

[Marshal Rohr]

But punished nonetheless.

[Grey Mage]

But punished nonetheless.

Irrelevent to their loyalties, motives, or actual status.

[whitewolfmxc]

Two post above you is a good start , its stated many times in the Ragnar books by William king that Ragnar has been tempted by Chaos many times and every time his inner wulfen takes in to fight it

 

and just by the fact that the whole SW 13th company is in the warp for 10000 years and are still loyal to Russ and Big M is a solid prof that its harder to corrupt a SW cause of the special gene seed organ (Canis helix) they have

 

No, its not solid evidence at all. The 13th Company is about as far from Imperial Kosher as it gets, and if you think they are OK, your wrong. They have mutated, and spent more time in the EoT than any other loyalist, and they LOOK LIKE IT.

 

 

This proves why theres so many Wulfens in the 13th company , you get chaos influenced , your inner wulfen fights it , the more you let it fight the more chance of you "losing" to the wulfen hence you turn into a wulfen yourself

 

A Wulfen is BAD. Its a bad state to be in. The Death Company/Wulfen/Weregeld/etc are all BAD. It doesnt matter how loyal you are, mutation is bad. M'Kay.

 

WoW, i knew you were more zealous than most (and id respect that and your chapters ways) but all you claim in the argument is some warped idea of how you see things in terms of being a templar, for god sakes we are talking about SW , seriously show me one line in ANY codex , that says 13th company are now Chaos or even traitors ? and the imperials are ordered to hunt them down ? Does eye or terror codex say so ? Its says they are still loyal to Russ and still follow his orders, not to mention showing up in the last Ragnar series novels that helped the cadian's and such

 

Yeah a lot of chapters are far and deep behind the lines and all , so they all dont count for squat ? I dont see how more "solid" can it be when its written in a codex (then of course people now a days even like to argue what is the cannon part of each book too so im not surprised)

 

So they spend more time in the eye , so ? Does it say that that makes you chaos now ? Dont throw out personal opinions and say its the fact, sure they "look like it" , oh my a SM guy kills an ork takes his weapon cause he ran out of ammo is an ork / traitor now hah ? Thats right , thats what you just meant , the guys in the eye gonna produce ammo and gear out of thier Ale ? No ? thats right they got to take the stuff from the enemy , its call dealing with reality.

 

Sure in the Inquisition eye wulfens are bad mofos , but then again they are the same group of ass hats that think sterilizing anyone that comes into contact with chaos is a good idea(Yes Armageddon story we all know) , so yeah you say its the same for BA death company too hah ? Oh boy , so you just "proved" that BA are also Chaos now ? id like to see how you "try" to convince the BA players now (grabs popcorn)

 

whats you point on bring this up if you say loyalty doesnt matter ? really ? is this even on topic ? Yeah mutation bad , but your still loyal so now your Chaos ? get real mate. we all know its far more complicated than just that.

 

 

Sorry but what i see is someone who somewhat has a personal vendetta on a perticuller thread cause a lot of people dont agree with him previously (cause it was on a heavily off topic train and you somehow felt offended by some of the responses, which i understand) , and now you just seems to say "No" to everything others say without any reasoning or just "because". Please while your very free to to express your ideas and opinion , respect some of the other peoples ideas and not just saying stuff like "your wrong cause thats how me and my "insert chapter" sees it"

 

Well if im mistaken and you arent like this , than i apologize personally.

 

PS: Marshal2 Crusaders , its not personal , in fact i appreciate your passion towards affairs that involve with all those thousands of little plastic man, but please if you have a fair point , then please show it a more appropriate manner and less "Im (insert chapter) and what we think or say is right". cause that way the discussion isnt going anywhere forward.

[Marshal Rohr]

So begins another line. by. line. response.

 

WoW, i didnt know you were more zealous than most but all you claim in the argument is some warped idea of how you see things in terms of being a tight xxx , seriously show me one line in ANY codex , that says 13th company are now Chaos or even traitors ? and the imperials are ordered to hunt them down ? Does eye or terror codex say so ? Its says they are still loyal to Russ and still follow his orders, not to mention showing up in the last Ragnar series novels that helped the cadian's and such

 

Doesn't matter. The Relictors were loyal, so were the Flame Falcons. And the Soul Drinkers. And Abnett's Alpha Legion. And... well you get the picture by now.

 

Yeah a lot of chapters are far and deep behind the lines and all , so they all dont count for squat ?

 

Whoa! Thats TOTALLY what I said.

 

I dont see how more "solid" can it be when its written in a codex (then of course people now a days even like to argue what is the cannon part of each book too so im not surprised)

 

Yeah, I hate codexes and all the information in them. I never use them in arguments.

 

So they spend more time in the eye , so ?

 

The Eye is evil and corrupting by its very nature, only the hardest make it out OK. Even they are still scarred by it. Scarred like Lysander going crazy on every Iron Warrior for the past 44 years, or having a recession gene suddenly make you become a werewolf. Thats a scar.

 

Does it say that that makes you chaos now ?

 

No. The Inquisition says your Chaos. Then your Chapter is annihilated and every thinks you WERE Chaos, regardless of what you think. Because the victors write the history books.

 

Dont throw out personal opinions and say its the fact, sure they "look like it" , oh my a SM guy kills an ork takes his weapon cause he ran out of ammo is an ork / traitor now hah ? Thats right , thats what you just meant , the guys in the eye gonna produce ammo and gear out of thier Ale ? No ? thats right they got to take the stuff from the enemy , its call dealing with reality.

 

Thank you for educating me! Now I get it! I had never heard of field expedience before! I was so wrong to think that the Inquisition doesnt like it when you use Chaos Weapons and armor that grows things and machine spirits that develop personalities and become possessed in the Eye! Because that NEVER HAPPENS.

 

Sure in the Inquisition eye wulfens are bad mofos , but then again they are the same group of ass hats that think sterilizing anyone that comes into contact with chaos is a good idea(Yes Armageddon story we all know)

 

...

 

so yeah you say its the same for BA death company too hah ? Oh boy , so you just "proved" that BA are also Chaos now ? id like to see how you "try" to convince the BA players now (grabs popcorn)

 

Sanguinius had wings. And could see the future. Blood Angels delve into berzerker like states and are suggested to have a thirst for Blood. The Flesh Tearers are known for their rampant bloodletting. There is more than a little Chaos in the Blood Angels. Its their struggle that defines them.

 

whats you point on bring this up if you say loyalty doesnt matter ? really ? is this even on topic ? Yeah mutation bad , but your still loyal so now your Chaos ? get real mate.

 

Your not loyal if the Inquisition says you arnt.

 

 

Sorry but what i see is someone who somewhat has a personal vendetta on a perticuller thread cause a lot of people dont agree with him previously (cuase it was on a heavily off topic train and you somehow felt offended by some of the responses, which i understand) , and now you just seems to say "No" to everything others say without any reasoning. Please while your very free to to express your ideas and opinion , respect some of the other peoples ideas and not just saying stuff like "your wrong cause thats how me and my "insert chapter" sees it" a

 

The jig is up! Ive been made. How did you know I actually hate debates about background, perspective, and fluff and only do it because someone disagreed with me?

 

Well if im mistaken and you arent like this , than i apologize personally.

 

Apology Accepted, but only after you read my responses :P .