How would you beat this?

[Titan87]

So my friend asked me to help him come up with an IG list from what he had, and we worked together to come up with a pretty solid list, however... it turned out to be alot more solid than either one of us intended. Now its not leafblower level (I don't think), but it packs a big wallop.

 

Company Command (SR. Officer PF, Vet. HF, 3x Vet Flamer, Asotropath, Bodyguard, Carapace) 145

Chimera (HF+ Multilaser) 55

Company Command (SR. Officer PF, Vet. HF, 3x Vet Flamer, Officer of the fleet, Bodyguard, Carapace) 145

Chimera (HF+ Multilaser) 55

 

 

Vet( PF + BP, 1x HF, 2x Flamer, Vox, Grenadier) 152

 

Vet( PF + BP, 1x HF, 2x Flamer, Vox, Grenadier) 152

 

Vet( PF, 3x Melta, Vox, Grenadier) 150

Chimera (HF+ Multilaser) 55

Vet( PF, 3x Melta, Vox, Grenadier) 150

Chimera (HF+ Multilaser) 55

Vet( PF, 3x Melta, Vox, Grenadier) 150

Chimera (HF+ Multilaser) 55

 

Vendetta + HB sponsons 140

Vendetta + HB sponsons 140

Vendetta + HB sponsons 140

 

Leman Russ Executioner (Plasma Sponsons) 230

2x Medusa (enclosed Crew) 300

Leman Russ Executioner (Plasma Sponsons) 230

Total 2499

 

Okay so this list has ridiculous High S low AP firepower. 2 S10 AP2 Large blast ordinance, 10 plasma cannon blasts, 9 TL-LC, etc.

 

This army chews through PA and TDA like a snack and destroys vehicles just as easily. As the co-creator/victim of this list how would you guys beat it with a marine army (Any kind though I plat BT and Ultramarines)?

 

Obviously reserves are key because if he gets to alpha strike his opponents is pretty much over turn 1, but he has the astropath and officer of the fleet which :D with my reserves and ensures his are on the board ASAP. With that many vehicles, it is also difficult to handle simply opening up and killing the armor. They best solution I've come up is deep striking/podding, but each unit you send down is a suicide unit with all the vets and vendettas floating around to burn armor or marines.

 

Advice, or have I created a monster?

[Grey Mage]

HQ: 185pts.

Rune Priest- Bike, Master of Runes, Stormcaller, Living Lightning- 185pts.

 

Elites: 405pts.

Dreadnaught- Assault Cannon, HF, EA, WTT- DP- 170pts.

Dreadnaught- MM, HF, EA, WTT- DP- 170pts.

5 Scouts- Meltagun, PW- 100pts.

 

Troops: 1055

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, WT, DP- 215pts.

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, WT, DP- 215pts.

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, DP- 205pts.

10 GHs- 2x Plasmagun, PF, WT, DP- 230pts.

10 GHs- 2x Plasmagun, PF, WT, DP- 230pts.

 

 

5 Swiftclaws- Powerfist, Flamer- 155pts.

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

 

5 Long Fangs- 2xML, 2xLC, DP- 180pts.

5 Long Fangs- 2xML, 2xLC, DP- 180pts.

Whirlwind- 85pts.

 

2500pts.

 

Drop in Dreads and Meltas turn 1, take out every vehicle I can with them the typhoons and the long fangs, hit some of the troops with the whirlwind. Slam the bikes in to overdrive to get them up close and personal by turn 2.

 

No officer of the fleet, no mystics... my ard boyz list should rip him apart in the first three turns.

 

It is a nice mechanized list. It would put up a heck of a fight- but Im confident in being able to remove most of his marine killing tanks turn 1, and deal with the vendettas as they arrive.

[Fatuous]

Yeah the main issue with this is really to take down both Russes on turn 1, you just can not allow that sort of fire power to target your marines.

 

So podded dreads with MMs, and at least 2 other pods, to make sure you get both dreads in on turn 1.

 

Scouts in LSSs would take out chimeras on turn 1 quite easily as well, pistol the side armour (shots guns -AP is not useful for this, btu can at least stop them moving, vital IMO if you use scouts as the HFs will rip them apart) then charge in and krak nade them, or hit with a PF.

 

Get the scouts up close to the podded dreads, and any vets getting in to melta range to deal with them can be easily wiped out in CC. If you can get a cracked open chim in the shooting phase, then charge the contents, so a combi melta might not be a bad idea.

 

Rifle man dreads, would be good for opening up a chim a turn, and some speeders with heavy flamers to torch the contents.

[Hellios]

Well it would vary depending on your codex but... really fast melta onto the executioners... if you go first maybe land-speeder storms with multi-melta and scout sgt with combi-melta (especially in vulcan lists)... Sternguard with combi-meltas in a drop-pod (again better with vulcan... in fact if I write melta just assume it works better with vulcan)... ven dreads with multi-meltas.... iron-clads with melta-guns.... even better if your group allows FW and take lucious pattern drop pods although even I feel dirty using them unless I'm playing Death Wing...

 

Land Raiders could also work on bigger boards as melta-vets are not an issue until they get close... in which case they should be dead already and the vendettas which I must love since I've started playing Air Cav. they can choose to go fast or they can choose to shoot... the faster they go the less fire you have to take... if you pop smoke early on you should be good for that turn and if they stay still to shoot you just need to make sure that you take them out the net turn... however you like.

 

The medusa should be easy to kill their short range, lack of barrage and relatively low front armour means you can easily be avoided or destroyed on a 6X4 or bigger... because Anti-tank such as lascannons, missile launchers and auto-cannons will out range you, unless you take bastion breacher shells which will put you on par but make you less effective against infantry units.

 

So yer the exececutioners and medusas want to go early, but you should be able to stay out of range off them with Long ranged anti-tank or do a hard melta alpha-strike... after that (and this is by no means impossible) you have two sets of threats Anti-tank which includes Vendettas (but not the vets inside) and the melta-vets, you then have Anti-infantry which includes the Vendetta-vets and the Chimeras and the command squads... now that depends on your army... if you go foot slogging heavy armour, light armour or mixed. Assuming you are at least mixed (some AV13 and maybe some land raiders but also guys in rhinos or AV12 dreads) then if your dreads are not part of the alpha-strike keep them at range in support. 2 x TL-AC for non melta-dreads would work as they can pop both vendettas and chimeras and should out-range chimeras and be able to fire on any vendettas that threaten them... IF dreads are the vendettas best targets things are going wrong. Rhinos should also lurk our of the way of damage. First cripple the vendettas (so they have no lascannons left, can't shoot or whatever the lascannons are the issue here), then target the melta-vet chimeras (you don't even have to destroy them [yet], even immobilised they can't get into threat range without getting out and if they hide inside you blow it up at leisure) ... once the vets are on foot you should be able to kill them no problem... trust me... I know... Once the threats too your heavy armour are gone you should be able to roll up and pop any remaining vehicles and this is when you want infantry on foot on in light transports to speed forward take objectives and mop up troops.

 

This list has 10 AV12 or less vehicles and 2 AV14 or less vehicles... This can be pretty scary seeing all that armour but consider that IG can get that amount of armour in 1,500pts... it isn't so bad... sure they might be faster, have bigger guns and be carrying meaner guys than the 1,500pts list but the key to this list is the vehicles, you should be able to scrounge enough fire power to deal with it...

[Jackelope King]

This is a pretty decent list.

 

To counter it with my Bikers at 2500 points, I've got the melta, but the question (as it often is at 2500 points) would be who gets first turn. If I get first turn, I'm turbo-boosting all my Bikers forward to grant them a cover save against the executioners and spreading out my squads in a big line to minimize the blast templates. My firebase is going to focus first on dropping the Vendettas, though at this point, I'll be happy with getting some Stunned results and calling it a day, and with 9 autocannons and 12 krak missiles, my odds aren't bad of doing that. I only need a turn to get my Bikers into position anyway.

 

Whether or not I get to turbo-boost my Bikers is the critical question because of the 3+ cover save. At 2500 points, I've got plenty of ablative wounds in my Biker Squads, and they pack lots of melta. I'm going to need to use them on my second turn to nuke the Executioners and then the Medusas. The one major downside to playing Chimera spam is that you don't have a nice infantry blob to protect your tank batteries from fast melta like this. IG and Tau are about the only armies that can do Hybrid well in this regard. I'll also keep what firebase I still have dedicated to fire suppression on your transports, especially those Vendettas.

 

After that it's a matter of who can choose the engagements. Anything that gets dismounted is going to be eaten by my Biker command squad, which is absolute overkill in this game. That said, they actually benefit heavily from what I'd imagine your preferred tactic would be with your Chimera Spam: you'll want to stick together, as I will, to avoid having lone stragglers eaten alive. When you do that, if I'm able to pop two or more nearby Chimeras, I'm going to go for the multicharge with the command squad every time, direct every single attack I can into one squad over the other, and then hope the other squad hangs tight to shield my Command Squad from shooting for a turn. The real threat will be from meltaguns fired from the fire points on the Chimeras at this point, and it just comes down to bloody attrition: can I shake or stun enough nearby Chimeras to protect my Bikers from too many return meltagun shots? Do I have enough of a firebase left to do it with?

[Titan87]

HQ: 185pts.

Rune Priest- Bike, Master of Runes, Stormcaller, Living Lightning- 185pts.

 

Elites: 405pts.

Dreadnaught- Assault Cannon, HF, EA, WTT- DP- 170pts.

Dreadnaught- MM, HF, EA, WTT- DP- 170pts.

5 Scouts- Meltagun, PW- 100pts.

 

Troops: 1055

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, WT, DP- 215pts.

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, WT, DP- 215pts.

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, DP- 205pts.

10 GHs- 2x Plasmagun, PF, WT, DP- 230pts.

10 GHs- 2x Plasmagun, PF, WT, DP- 230pts.

 

 

5 Swiftclaws- Powerfist, Flamer- 155pts.

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

 

5 Long Fangs- 2xML, 2xLC, DP- 180pts.

5 Long Fangs- 2xML, 2xLC, DP- 180pts.

Whirlwind- 85pts.

 

2500pts.

 

Drop in Dreads and Meltas turn 1, take out every vehicle I can with them the typhoons and the long fangs, hit some of the troops with the whirlwind. Slam the bikes in to overdrive to get them up close and personal by turn 2.

 

No officer of the fleet, no mystics... my ard boyz list should rip him apart in the first three turns.

 

It is a nice mechanized list. It would put up a heck of a fight- but Im confident in being able to remove most of his marine killing tanks turn 1, and deal with the vendettas as they arrive.

 

Thank Grey Mage, a couple of things...

1. Typo there is a master of the fleet, the second astropath was a copy and paste error.

 

2. The biggest problem with this tactic, is his ability to reserve. If I get turn 1, I advised him to reserve basically his entire force so as not to suffer that kind of alpha strike, and because everything he has so much firepower per turn he can afford to stay in reserve, and then bring in his units all of which are hell on unmeched infantry (i.e. heavy flamers, lots of AP2 firepower, etc.)

 

3. Grey Mage, this list is why you are a better wargamer than I may ever be.That is one of the hardest lists I've seen, your ability to stay away from the shiny toys and concentrate on the fundamentals amazes me (I just can't bring myself to leave behind stuff like terminators in a land raider + HQ.)

[Grey Mage]

Sure, he can reserve... and in some cases its a great idea- but it wont help his army out much at all.

 

Instead of going "OH NOEZ!!!!" when he reserves, an experianced DP player will take advantage of the situation- he has given you a gift by choosing to remove his firepower from the field turn 1. Instead of deploying in your own DZ *though that is an option it isnt a good one in this case* Drop in about 20" off his end of the board, near whatever cover you can find- closer if need be but never farther. On a "standard" table about 1/4 of the area is covered in terrain, so you should be able to find enough on a 6x4.

 

If he seems the type, or your playing on an 8x4, then drop the dreads in as you would have normally... but at about 24" so he cant easily get in melta, range, and throw a Plasma-hunter squad in cover behind them. Then, for your other two DPs send the LFs pods down empty turn 1 to try and cut down the lines of fire to your forward DZ. Either hell avoid this little next, in wich case youll need to hug cover or find an objective worth camping, OR hell concentrate fire on them- wich means you have standing cover and the ability to increase this mini-fortress youve created once your other pods start coming in around turn 3-4, wich coincidentally allows him time enough to get cocky/confused/lose focus and break up his army so its easier for you to target the vehicles you want.

 

Oh... and a couple of tactical notes- outside of his flyers there he has no guns capable of outranging your long fangs. 36" is his cap... and thats a huge tactical advantage for any army that can have the distance.

 

Speaking of wich- if he doesnt reserve his vendettas and moves slow enough to be shooting his weapons before the very late game- punish him. Take them down faster than a nascar pile up and do it dramatically and quickly to make sure he never does it again. You cant afford to ignore them, and its to your advantage if they dont show up tell a bit later...

 

Expect to take casualties. Sure, Im talking here like its all going to go smoothly- but we both know thats not always the case. Dont let a squad being wiped from the board in one turn dissuade you from playing the list aggressively and targeting your other squads effectively. Space Marines know the risk, and my space wolves will glad take it- are yours lesser men? :rolleyes:.

 

Lastly, his medusas... are squadroned. *rubs hands* excellent. That means they have to fire on the same target, and that they share each others pain when you fire at them. Squadrons are great for light vehicles like Vypers, Landspeeders, and Piranah... but they are murder for heavy tanks, particularly immobile ones like artillery.

 

Good luck- good hunting.

[Koremu]

You could take out about half of that lists overall firepower with a single LSS with Scouts and a Fist. Bikes and Speeders likewise have the ability to ride through fire and get there.

 

IG heavy artillery really does need an Infantry cordon to disuade CC-inclined tank hunters.

 

Lastly, his medusas... are squadroned. *rubs hands* excellent. That means they have to fire on the same target, and that they share each others pain when you fire at them. Squadrons are great for light vehicles like Vypers, Landspeeders, and Piranah... but they are murder for heavy tanks, particularly immobile ones like artillery.

 

The best thing about vehicle squadrons of artillery is the ease with which you can get them a 3+ Cover Save. That said I personally would avoid it with anything apart from griffons.

[Ming]

I love the space wolf list above as much as the IG list. I'd hate to fight against either!

 

The only real problem with pod squads is the inability to assault on the turn you drop in.

 

As for the IG list, OUCH. Stop creating lists for the enemy! Yes, you want this guy to reserve everything...

 

A BA list with libby dreads with blood lance would be an awesome surprise to any mech IG opponent. The lance pierces only "one model in a unit" but it can hit multiple units...if you catch him all bunched up, it would be nasty.

 

An ultras list of 6 pods - 3 sternguard and 3 tactical, plus support and characters, would eat this army well. 3 sternguard squads with 2 MGs and 2-4 CMGs each could conceivably take down 3 armored vehicles a turn, in an ideal situation you could drop up to 9 vehicles turn 1. Follow that up with the tac squads and support mopping up, and you have a tough, tense, and terrific game. If his army was spread around and you could focus, a sternguard squad could split, half killing the vehicle, and the other half plus character shooting the survivors.

 

Overall both lists in this thread are amazing....don't play them around me...

[greatcrusade08]

i beat a similar list at ASMOH, the tournament run by Waaaniall00.

In my game he had

2 exocutioners

3 plasma cannoin walkers

3 units of veterans with Pw and maxed special weapons (plasma and melta mainly) all in chimeras

Land raider with daeomonhunter and retinue.

 

i ran with

2 x 10 snipers both with ML, one squad had Telion

2 thunderfire cannons (did nothing all game.. he was meched up)

LSS with MM

5 scouts combi-melta, meltabombs.

LSS with HF

5 scout with combi-flamer and fist

10 ccw scouts with PW

10 bolter scouts, HB, combi-plasma

Khan, chappy and tooled up command squad

5 scout bikes with fist

 

i basically got first turn charges, tying up the walkers with the scout bikes for 4 turns.

The LSS with MM targetted the raider and this was one of the only times i failed to destroy it, my snipers and t-fires tried cracking open the chimeras, once the guys were on foot even my 5 man LSS squads were killing the IG vets.

With so little anti-tank i was throwing scouts at the exocutioners with krak grenades eventually killing them both.. even tjough they decimated my command squad and 2 squads of scouts i still won the day on objectives, as all he had left was a damaged raider.

 

CC wipes out guard, you just need to kill those tanks quickly enough

[Giga]

Well, as far as 2500 pts goes, I don't see much to be worried about in that list. As ludicrous as it may sound, it has virtually no long-range anti-tank (seeing as those vendettas will either be coming out of reserve or moving, hence not being able to shoot all of their lascannons), and very little long-range shooting overall, for a 2500 pts list. Multilasers I'm simply not worried about, as cover + being mechanized pretty much makes me safe from most of their shooting.

 

Basically, I'd beat this list by outshooting the crap out of it, all while keeping at a safe distance from all those meltas. Spam autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers etc. to take out the medusas and as many chimeras as soon as possible, and then take them vendettas down once they start arriving from outflank/reserve. I'd safely ignore the leman russes (my bikes and maybe some speeders would be kept safe from the plasma blasts by remaining in reserve and turboboosting). They might look scary, but a bunch of str7 blasts are crap against mechanized marines (played a lot against a player who likes to run a bunch of executioners). I don't even have to take out the medusas, either, simply shaking, stunning, or immobilizing (wrecking!) them will do the trick.

 

By turn 2-3, once the medusas and some of the chimeras are out of the picture, I'd proceed to move into rapid fire/assault range and wipe out as many whole veteran squads per turn as I can (easy, since a tac squad can easily rapid fire + flame a 10 men vet squad to death, and the bikers can do it even better). By then there should be an overabundance of cover on the table, so them executioners wouldn't be too dangerous. Depending on the situation I'd either move my speeders to heavyflamer the guardsmen, or to multimelta the remaining chimeras/leman russes.

 

This is all assuming I'm using this list - http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=201411

[Vaktathi]

It's not a great IG list at that points level in all honesty. A lot of points wasted on carapace armor, with all the points invested in that you could get more dudes with more guns. There's very little of the armor overload in this list that makes IG so ridiculous at 2500pts, and the Vox's are pointless, you can't use them in the Chimeras.

 

A list like this will do much better at 2500pts.

 

Company Command Squad, 4x Meltagun, Officer of the Fleet, Chimera w/ML & Hull HF

 

 

 

Platoon Command Squad, 3x Meltagun, 1x Flamer, Chimera w/ML & Hull HF

Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Chimera w/ML & Hull HB

Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Chimera w/ML & Hull HB

 

 

Platoon Command Squad, 4x Meltagun, Chimera w/ML & Hull HF

Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Chimera w/ML & Hull HB

Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Chimera w/ML & Hull HB

 

Veterans, 3x Meltagun, Autocannon, Chimera w/ML & Hull HF

 

Veterans, 3x Meltagun, Autocannon, Chimera w/ML & Hull HF

 

Veterans, 3x Meltagun, Autocannon, Chimera w/ML & Hull HF

 

Veterans, 3x Meltagun, Autocannon, Chimera w/ML & Hull HF

 

 

Vendetta

 

Vendetta

 

Vendetta

 

 

Leman Russ Battle Tank

 

Leman Russ Battle Tank

 

Leman Russ Battle Tank

Alternatively, you could also swap the 3 LRBT's for 6 Hydra's. You could swap the OoF for an Astropath or something else if you wished, there's room to fiddle with stuff.

 

 

This list gives you more overall firepower, more bodies, more guns, and more stuff for your opponent to have to deal with. You've got 8 autocannons, half of them BS4 to deal with light armor, 9 TL lascannons for anti armor work, and 11 multilasers to also help deal with rhino's/land speeders and wound marines on 2's, then *23* meltaguns to deal with armor that gets close and still work against heavy infantry, and 3 Battlecannons for slapping anything that gets out of a transport, or alternatively hydras to add more autocannons to kill transports and force tons of saves. You've got 17 armored hulls (20 if going with hydras), 95 infantry, and 10 scoring units.

 

Every single unit in this army can penetrate rhino's, all of them but the Infantry Squads and Chimeras can do something to Land Raiders, and the vast majority of the firepower is wounding marine's on 2's.

 

As ludicrous as it may sound, it has virtually no long-range anti-tank (seeing as those vendettas will either be coming out of reserve or moving, hence not being able to shoot all of their lascannons)

Why would they need to be moving all the time? They could just be held in the back as gunships with embarked dudes to act as reaction units.

[Giga]

A non-moving, non-reserved vendetta is pretty much impossible to get a cover save with. In a 2500 pts battle, those 3 vendettas would go down faster then you can read this sentence, which would also result in their cargo being left footslogging.

 

Whomever plays that list is very likely going to want his vendettas alive to be able to contest/take objectives later in the game etc. Hence, they're gonna keep those vendettas reserved/turboboosting. Keeping them in the back, shooting, would actually be beneficial to most opponents (especially other IG!).

[Vaktathi]

A non-moving, non-reserved vendetta is pretty much impossible to get a cover save with. In a 2500 pts battle, those 3 vendettas would go down faster then you can read this sentence, which would also result in their cargo being left footslogging.

Perhaps, perhaps not. It depends on if the IG go first and if you want to ignore the rest of the army or not. On average, it's gonna take 9 BS4 lascannons to kill a vendetta. Now, it'll require less obviously if you just want to keep them all from shooting or whatnot, but either way, killing 3 AV12 vehicles off the get go is not assured, especially if you want to hit anything else in the army. If the IG go first they have a good chance to keep your own long range shooting platforms from firing back at them.

 

Granted, the OP's list needs a lot of work, but the vendettas probably aren't simply going to evaporate without some poor luck on the IG players part.

[Grey Mage]

I suppose, all three times Ive faced a vendetta it was taken out with a pair of missile launchers and an autocannon.

[Vaktathi]

I suppose, all three times Ive faced a vendetta it was taken out with a pair of missile launchers and an autocannon.

"A" Vendetta, sure. Three with other armored units as well that you may need to deal with will likely prove much more of an issue. Granted, the OP's list doesn't have as much armor or infantry that it should at that level, but it's still highly unlikely that all 3 vendettas are going to be dead in one round of shooting.

[Hellios]

I suppose, all three times Ive faced a vendetta it was taken out with a pair of missile launchers and an autocannon.

"A" Vendetta, sure. Three with other armored units as well that you may need to deal with will likely prove much more of an issue. Granted, the OP's list doesn't have as much armor or infantry that it should at that level, but it's still highly unlikely that all 3 vendettas are going to be dead in one round of shooting.

 

I agree with this... I play Air.Cav. now :< just started and haven't had many games (and I'm using the IA8 Elysian list) and I've got to say so far I've taken surprisingly little damage to my flyers (6 at 1,500pts) with on average 5 out of 6 not destroyed by the end of the game... and apart from my flyers I only have sentinels as armour. I reserve a lot and tend to try and destroy the units who are the biggest threats the turn I arrive (if I can get 3 or more flyers arriving in a turn it normally means pain) however when people spread their fire they are surprisingly resilient.

[Grey Mage]

I suppose, all three times Ive faced a vendetta it was taken out with a pair of missile launchers and an autocannon.

"A" Vendetta, sure. Three with other armored units as well that you may need to deal with will likely prove much more of an issue. Granted, the OP's list doesn't have as much armor or infantry that it should at that level, but it's still highly unlikely that all 3 vendettas are going to be dead in one round of shooting.

 

I agree with this... I play Air.Cav. now :< just started and haven't had many games (and I'm using the IA8 Elysian list) and I've got to say so far I've taken surprisingly little damage to my flyers (6 at 1,500pts) with on average 5 out of 6 not destroyed by the end of the game... and apart from my flyers I only have sentinels as armour. I reserve a lot and tend to try and destroy the units who are the biggest threats the turn I arrive (if I can get 3 or more flyers arriving in a turn it normally means pain) however when people spread their fire they are surprisingly resilient.

Thing is, that suprises me, as they dont seem to hold up significantly better in squadrons *though granted, only one of those games had a squadron of three the other two were loners*. Destroyed on a 4+ is a pain in the butt, and it forces your skimmers to stay together wich reduces further the small chance they have of getting a cover save.

 

And of course, they all have to shoot at the same target, wich means with a good spread out heavy weapon defense they just dont seem that scary.

[Hellios]

I suppose, all three times Ive faced a vendetta it was taken out with a pair of missile launchers and an autocannon.

"A" Vendetta, sure. Three with other armored units as well that you may need to deal with will likely prove much more of an issue. Granted, the OP's list doesn't have as much armor or infantry that it should at that level, but it's still highly unlikely that all 3 vendettas are going to be dead in one round of shooting.

 

I agree with this... I play Air.Cav. now :< just started and haven't had many games (and I'm using the IA8 Elysian list) and I've got to say so far I've taken surprisingly little damage to my flyers (6 at 1,500pts) with on average 5 out of 6 not destroyed by the end of the game... and apart from my flyers I only have sentinels as armour. I reserve a lot and tend to try and destroy the units who are the biggest threats the turn I arrive (if I can get 3 or more flyers arriving in a turn it normally means pain) however when people spread their fire they are surprisingly resilient.

Thing is, that suprises me, as they dont seem to hold up significantly better in squadrons *though granted, only one of those games had a squadron of three the other two were loners*. Destroyed on a 4+ is a pain in the butt, and it forces your skimmers to stay together wich reduces further the small chance they have of getting a cover save.

 

And of course, they all have to shoot at the same target, wich means with a good spread out heavy weapon defense they just dont seem that scary.

 

If you are moving fast (the only time you will get a cover save unless you have a huge bit of terrain...) then you get destroyed on a 4+ anyway... I must admit my vehicles are not in squadrons as they can be taken as dedicated transports in the list I use. They can go down and will but with enough targets they can survive the issue being you need enough threatening units to give people are hard time.

[Grey Mage]

If you are moving fast (the only time you will get a cover save unless you have a huge bit of terrain...) then you get destroyed on a 4+ anyway... I must admit my vehicles are not in squadrons as they can be taken as dedicated transports in the list I use. They can go down and will but with enough targets they can survive the issue being you need enough threatening units to give people are hard time.

How are you getting them as dedicated transports? I cant find that in the codex anywhere, for any unit.

[Hellios]

If you are moving fast (the only time you will get a cover save unless you have a huge bit of terrain...) then you get destroyed on a 4+ anyway... I must admit my vehicles are not in squadrons as they can be taken as dedicated transports in the list I use. They can go down and will but with enough targets they can survive the issue being you need enough threatening units to give people are hard time.

How are you getting them as dedicated transports? I cant find that in the codex anywhere, for any unit.

 

I agree with this... I play Air.Cav. now :< just started and haven't had many games (and I'm using the IA8 Elysian list)

 

Not to seem too egotistical quoting myself :yes: I realise that standard guard have slightly different options but even if I had been in squadrons I think I would have lost one more Valkyrie... I was merely commenting that so far I've found that with enough targets on the board (and if your hitting enemy threats hard enough) that valkyries/vendettas and in my case Vultures can actually survive a bit of punishment, more punishment than I expected. Maybe not as good as Mechdar but not bad. Sorry for any confusion.

[Grey Mage]

Ah, sorry... I missed the IA8 Elysians.... I was thinking of the IA3 Elysians, which arent really a usuable army these days even if your group does allow FW on a regular basis.

[Giga]

Perhaps, perhaps not. It depends on if the IG go first and if you want to ignore the rest of the army or not. On average, it's gonna take 9 BS4 lascannons to kill a vendetta. Now, it'll require less obviously if you just want to keep them all from shooting or whatnot, but either way, killing 3 AV12 vehicles off the get go is not assured, especially if you want to hit anything else in the army. If the IG go first they have a good chance to keep your own long range shooting platforms from firing back at them.

 

Granted, the OP's list needs a lot of work, but the vendettas probably aren't simply going to evaporate without some poor luck on the IG players part.

I don't know anything about this 9-BS4-lascannons-to-kill-a-vendetta business. I've blown vendettas up a lot with lascannons, or at least crippled them in a single round of shooting from a single predator or rifleman dread or land raider. At the very least, their AV12 means lascannons are likely to shake them. In addition, if they're moving normally or standing still, they get no cover save. All it takes is an immobilized result to render a vendetta ineffective. And if it's turboboosting, it isn't shooting.

 

I usually play 1750 pts games, BTW. Killing 3 vendettas with a 2500 pts army would be even easier. And yes, the OP's list needs work. It lacks proper long-range shooting.

[Vaktathi]

I don't know anything about this 9-BS4-lascannons-to-kill-a-vendetta business.

On average, to *kill* one, it'll take 9 BS4 lascannon shots. 9 fire, 6 hit (BS4=66% chance to hit), 3 penetrate (need a 4 to penetrate, 50%, 6x(0.5)=3) and 1 destroyed or explodes result (1/3 chance on a penetrating hit).

 

I've blown vendettas up a lot with lascannons, or at least crippled them in a single round of shooting from a single predator or rifleman dread or land raider.

Sure, it's entirely possible. It's also just as possible to whiff just as often. I'm sure if you kept a record of the your shots against vendettas you'd find it probably matches up pretty evenly with the math above.

 

At the very least, their AV12 means lascannons are likely to shake them.

True, this is almost assured, *if* you go first.

 

In addition, if they're moving normally or standing still, they get no cover save. All it takes is an immobilized result to render a vendetta ineffective.

Again, depends on terrain and LoS, I've had plenty of games where an immobilized vendetta had no problems shooting enemy units. *Less* effective, yes, *ineffective*, not necessarily.

 

And if it's turboboosting, it isn't shooting.

True.

 

I usually play 1750 pts games, BTW. Killing 3 vendettas with a 2500 pts army would be even easier.

In a 1750pt game I've never had all 3 vendettas destroyed in one round of shooting, I can't recall the last game when all 3 were even shaken at the same time. At 1750 I've got 7 chimeras, 3 LRBT's and 3 vendetta's flying around, with a dozen meltaguns and a bunch of autocannons as well that the enemy has to stop in addition to the vendetta's. Not even against the vulkan drop pod meltaspam list have I had my vendetta's so savaged, and I typically play 2-5 games a week, running a list like that for almost a year now. At 2500pts, yes, it's far easier, and against this army with its limited numbers, more likely than many others, but also still not something you'd normally rely on, although at least making sure they aren't shooting will be easily assured.

 

Is it possible to kill 3 in a turn? Entirely. Is it something you'd expect or rely on? No.

 

And yes, the OP's list needs work. It lacks proper long-range shooting.

Yar, and numbers, really needs to work on numbers.

[Giga]

You don't really have to kill them all in a single turn. Shaking them to prevent them from shooting (in the case of this particular list) or immobilizing them will work just as fine. Basically, fighting the OP list would be all about preventing the medusa and the vendettas from shooting, at which point the only long-range shooting he has is a bunch of multilasers and the executioners.

 

As for vendetta survivability, I've always found it easy to take them out. Most of the time my opponents are outflanking/reserving them anyway, often using them to try and take important objectives from me, at which point both the vendetta and its cargo are forced to get close to my units, making it easy for me to pwn them all in close combat or rapid fire range.

 

In other words, I think vendettas are fine for what they do. They die rather easily due to the lack of cover saves and high armor, and the fact they're transports means they are going to be moving a lot and thus not taking advantage of all their guns (much like land raiders). They should be a little more expensive perhaps, but that's it.