Which Icon for Terminators?

[ashrog]

Yes, I know that conventional wisdom says only use terminators as termicides. But, I am a fan of terminators, and will be running 5 of them in a Land Raider. My question is, which Icon to use? Had originally planned to use Khorne, but will I get more for my money (so to speak) with the added survivability of Tzeentch or Nurgle? Probably not Slaanesh, I use a couple of fists, which would limit the effectiveness.

[davidren2401]

Nurgle if you want to be extremely annoying to anything strength 3 or chaos undivided if you want to keep the icon cheap and cheerful so u can load up on other goodies

[Cornelias]

IOCG is the only one worth taking really.

[Crusader169]

i like icon of Nurgle, but 4++ save can be nice too :P

[nurglez]

Extra toughness is very nice indeed, but the cost of the nurgle icon is just silly to spend on a 5man squad, id say tzeentch or chaos glory.

[Cheex]

I'd definitely go Tzeentch. Anything that really threatens your 2+ save will likely ignore the extra toughness from the Nurgle icon anyway (plasma, etc), so the 4++ will certainly be more useful against the real threats.

[Brother Nihm]

IOCG is the only one worth taking really.

Seconded.

[sword brethren]

i have an iron warriors symbol on mine, i use it a IOCG most of the time but i use it as Tzeetch againts anything with lots of power weapons and plasma. i find myself switching to khorne when i play against imperial guard because i can really cause deepstrike havok :tu:

[minigun762]

Slaanesh if you limit yourself to 1 Fist weapon per 5 guys.

IoCG otherwise.

[techsoldaten]

Depends on how you are using the Terminators.

 

If you are looking to use them in close combat, Tzeentch. The 4+ invulnerable save will keep more of them around longer.

 

If you are looking to use them in a ranged role, Nurgle. The increased toughness will let them shrug off some shots.

 

If you are looking to use them in a mixed role, IoCG. You will take hits marching forward and the increased morale will be important.

 

M

[Lexington]

I've always thought the Mark of Slaanesh was one of the best "a good offense is the best defense" examples in 40K. Striking first with power weapons means a lot of enemies who won't be returning the favor.

[Chengar Qordath]

I've always thought the Mark of Slaanesh was one of the best "a good offense is the best defense" examples in 40K. Striking first with power weapons means a lot of enemies who won't be returning the favor.

Initiative 5 is great when you're fighting other MEQs, but against most other enemies it is lackluster since they're either too slow (Guard, Tau, Necrons) or too fast (Both types of Eldar, Genestealers)

[Lexington]

True enough. However, given that, what, 60% of the player base is bringing MEQ's to the table, it usually seems like a good bet to me. :P

 

In addition, I think you're still getting a pretty good deal against enemies sporting I5; after all, striking simultaneously is preferable to striking second.

[minigun762]

True enough. However, given that, what, 60% of the player base is bringing MEQ's to the table, it usually seems like a good bet to me. :lol:

 

In addition, I think you're still getting a pretty good deal against enemies sporting I5; after all, striking simultaneously is preferable to striking second.

 

That is exactly the reason its useful. Gives you the advantage against other MEQs and levels the playing field when you fight some Eldar/Tyranid units. Only army its really wasted on is IG and sometimes Orks.

[Brother Kovash]

I've been toying with the idea of using IoCG so I can drop in a wall of lesser daemons in front of my termies. You say IoS would be useless since you use PF, but are all of your termies armed with fists? That seems like overkill to me.

[the jeske]

True enough. However, given that, what, 60% of the player base is bringing MEQ's to the table, it usually seems like a good bet to me. :(

 

In addition, I think you're still getting a pretty good deal against enemies sporting I5; after all, striking simultaneously is preferable to striking second.

 

That is exactly the reason its useful. Gives you the advantage against other MEQs and levels the playing field when you fight some Eldar/Tyranid units. Only army its really wasted on is IG and sometimes Orks.

 

I will disagree here. first of all to make it work with the WS and str termis have you need 6-8 of them or 5 and an HQ. neither of those fit in a LR , making both the prospect of slogging or deep striking a very good thing... for your opponent. Second thing is that unlike the loyalist sm our dudes on charge dont get frag . this means that you either have to get opponent units in the open [that would requier 3-4 unit combinations and formations like that tend not to work at all] or the icon does nothing on turn 1. second thing is that again unlike sm LR our fit only 5 termi sized models . Now that is a problem . because 5 dudes without an Ic is 1 under what hth units like termis should be , with an IC they are jut 4 dudes and dont have enough attacks to hurt opponent units enough [that is before not having frag] .

So IoS is never a good thing for termis and puting the whole "termis are a bad hth unit anway" aside here. both khorn and Tzeench work better. one makes the termis a always better in hth while the other makes them a better tar pit[what of course doesnt mean they are in anyway good hth units].

[Chengar Qordath]

That is exactly the reason its useful. Gives you the advantage against other MEQs and levels the playing field when you fight some Eldar/Tyranid units. Only army its really wasted on is IG and sometimes Orks.

It's also useless against Dark Eldar since they're all Initiative 6, but DE are probably the rarest army out there.

[Lady_Canoness]

Saying that Terminators are not good assault units is a joke, right? Sure they can't wade through a horde like Berzerkers can, but, if you need something to die, they kill it dead and then some.

 

Personally, I'm a fan of the 4+ inv. save since it goes towards protecting them from the big nasties that they are likely to engage and the pesky powerweapons that people are likely to throw at them.

Land Raiders are definately the way to go with these guys, and - unlike the pessimists that lurk around all terminator topics - I'll stand up and say that Terminators in a Land Raider will fit an assault role in any army with the points to spare. These guys can get the jump on the enemy and eat their way through just about anything.

[the jeske]

Saying that Terminators are not good assault units is a joke, right?

they have no frags , so they strike last . they are max 5 models in the unit , so the number of attacks so the number of attacks is not high enough to take stuff like TH/SS termis out or MC . they are not fearless and as they are chaos they dont have ATSKNF , with a 5 models unit this means 2 dead guys to force a test. If someone takes 4 guys and a lord we are looking at a very high cost unit [with the same problems every uber unit has , so being poped turn 1-2 and being forced to slog the table with termi bases being template weapon magnet] , that still isnt much more effective then the counter units other armies use [but for a lot more points] . hmm what else . Ah Icons , with 5 or 4 guys if a lord is taken the chance of the icon dieing [again no frags so there is a big chance it dies before the termis get to use it] very fast is big .

on top of that we get the normal 5th ed stuff. so it is non scoring , if someone uses an assault build it should not be a one unit uber build but a spam one [and there is now way to spam termi +LR +lords in normal point games] etc etc.

Ah did I mention that our LR dont have PotMS , so unlike the loyalist ones cant do support after [and if they survived] they do tranport .

 

. These guys can get the jump on the enemy and eat their way through just about anything.

what kind of units ? tacticals . I can do the same with zerkers or csm units . GH/BA ones I can do the same with normal chaos troops and a DP and I have 2 targets and not one [and am scoring and contesting] and am still cheaper then a termi in LR unit . I dont not die when am tarpited by a walker or Wright lord. etc etc . While I understand the fluff about termis being awesome , saying that they are great in hth in w40k the table top game is false.

[Zeller]

What do you expect them to face and what role do you forsee them fulfilling?

 

Personally I wouldn't take a mark because they're only 1 wound models and it's nice to have cheaper terminators.

[Lady_Canoness]

Terminators are not the be all and end all of assault it is true (Berzerkers have that honour so far as I am concerned), but I contest the idea that Terminators should be overlooked.

 

True, our Terminators - if mounted as they should be - max out at five, and it was pointed out that they lack the attacks to take on sponge units or units with high inv. saves, but how often are you going to ram your Land Raider into that? Same goes for units in cover? I don't know about other players here, but when enemy units are in cover I don't tend to gate-crash with a Land Raider full of terminators. Land Raiders let us hit where we want and when we want with our Terminators. Sure, a Land Raider can be destroyed, but a player who knows how to make the most of his or her Land Raider will often get jump right where they want it. This game is about positioning just as much as number-crunching - a fact that I think is often overlooked.

 

I also have the utmost faith in Terminator Leadership. Why? It starts at 10, and will RARELY drop. Sure, they killed 2 out of 5 Terminators - but how often is it that Termintors don't cause two wounds back if not more? If they are testing Ld, then they are against something they cannot kill or hope to win against. Terminators should never lose a combat, and if they do it is because they are up against something they shouldn't be and are already as good as dead. Ld 10 is perfect, and a re-roll should never be needed on these guys unless they are facing down some fancy new psychic powers.

 

Terminators shine, however, in taking down units that other assault element's can't. Berzerkers are superb at cutting through any type of infantry... unless that infantry is in power armour and has Feel No Pain - with the new Blood Angels about with those damnable priests (shakes fist) we will be seeing lots of these. Terminators mop them. A spammed list will fail in the end because it is a one trick pony, and when that trick is beat... you get the picture. Terminators are versatile, and with all the gear we can give them, then can counter any threat and can find a place in any force. They are not the guys you want storming trenchs - they never should be considered as such - but they are the guys that crack the units that your other units can't tackle.

Icons help them out, though may be a tad pricey. Still, an improved inv save or extra attacks or even better toughness will be noticed.

 

Let's not forget the popularity of AP3 weapons as well... something a winged Daemon Prince - the lauded bread and butter of the Chaos Marines - can't ignore.

[the jeske]

but how often are you going to ram your Land Raider into that?

always . If the LR is not going in a stright line to its target and doesnt get the cargo there turn 1-2 , then the chance that the LR is dead by then is huge .

 

Sure, they killed 2 out of 5 Terminators - but how often is it that Termintors don't cause two wounds back if not more?

am talking about shoting . Counter units do a lot more wounds then 2 wounds on teq.

 

This game is about positioning just as much as number-crunching - a fact that I think is often overlooked.

there is no soft or hard counters to melta weapons with chaos LR . we cant put them in to ouflank like loyalist with khan . we can take blessed hull like BT , nor can we spam them for normal troops for cheap[and even if we do take them for csm/zerker squads the LR we get are worse then the imperial ones.

 

 

Terminators mop them.

how? they strike first . they are 2 attacks each + vet sgt and priest with power weapons . and that is when we get to charge , when they charge they are not only str 5 but also I5 and strike before us cover or not.

 

 

hey are not the guys you want storming trenchs - they never should be considered as such - but they are the guys that crack the units that your other units can't tackle.

cool , but this is fluff . 25% of table is terrain objectives are always in terrain , 2/3 of games is about objectives. so 2/3 of the time a termi build out of chaos does charge in trenches. Also what are the units that they can kill that a zerker unit of same size cant ? coming out of the same LR with or without the Lord ?

 

If they are testing Ld, then they are against something they cannot kill or hope to win against

ok, so they are the unit that can tackle stuff other units can not , or is there stuff they cant counter. because if there is stuff they cant or wont kill , the handicap of taking them is too big and it is better to spend the points on same LR but with zerkers . specialy as unlike the termis , zerkers dont force people to run lords .

[Ace of Gods]

For my termies i use the Tzeentch. Then they have 2+ 4++ save and are just great. And saying they dont have enough attacks or 5 isnt enough is a joke. Granted, mine run with the Tzeentch icon, one hvy flamer, 4 have lightning claw, and each one has champion upgrade, and one has a chain fist. thats 20 Power attacks on a charge, 16 of them re roll wounds. It scares the living **** out of anything they get near. Rolling along inside their Land raider with a demon prince flying behind it(in cover or Block LOS usually due to LR size) that is nurgle, wings, and warptime. This is just a walking death squad. (but as stated again, you do need to take in manueverability and tactical entrance to get em how you want to get them in with fewer causualties, or less counter attacks, etc.)

 

The termies do carry a high price of just under 300 pts at this build (295 to be exact) but they never fail me. Land raider contests objectives, Rams vehicles, shoots down whatever it can afterwards, demon prince joins in the charge, or assaults another unit nearby if able. The only downside is, as stated, no frags (for them or the Demon prince) so charging large squads of orcs or large squads of anything is hazardous to their health. But that i leave to smaller movements on the land raider to fire into them, and use a trio of oblits across the board to Plasma cannon larger squads to eitehr force em to leave, or knock them down some.

[maverike_prime]

just to add my 2 cents to the conversation:

 

I run either a 5 man Termi Squad with Abbadon, or a 10 Man unit with Abby. All of them equiped with either Power fists or Chains fist and carring Icon of Tzeentch. I use them as my "That needs to go away" unit. I have icons on all my units, even if it's a personal icon on a cult marine. I keep Abby and the Terminators in reserve and Deep strike them where I need them. Since 99 out of a 100 times I'm deep striking next to an Icon I don't scatter. Even though they can't charge in the turn they deep strike, they can still shoot, and usally I'm in range to double tap.

[Snugsmike]

Concerning the last couple of replies, Jeske is on base. You cannot compare Berzerkers and Chaos Terminators in the "assault specialist" role. The Berzerkers are better in EVERY single way.

That aside, Terminators have other roles that have been highlighted in other threads.

On to the original topic, I have had some success deep striking a 10 man squad with Icon of Nurgle, combis and two heavy flammers, a chainfist and powerfist. Giant squad which just MURDERED behind enemy lines. I think my main motivation was the fact that I had 10 nurgle terminators... I have a friend that will deepstrike 6-7 of them with combis and Icon of Tzeetch to some success also.

I don't recommend Khorne or Slaanesh.