No wolves on Fenris?

[Simo429]

The Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons actually points to an earlier period, probably during the Dark Age of Technology, when the settlers were experimented upon in order to give them a chance of survival on our beloved deathworld called Fenris.

I don't agree with that at all

 

I think what it is saying is that when the settlers of Fenris got to Fenris there were already Xenos creatures there that looked like Wolves and Mammoths ect so they named them what they looked like and now no one questions that they are Xenos because they have been with them for so long but Magnus sees the irony of Russ being raised by Xenos while preaching about witchcraft

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I agree, there is more than one way of explaining this.

 

It is clear that the wolves are intelligent and cause real problems for the pet demons of the Thousand Sons, but their origin is open to speculation.

 

Abhumans or Xenos, they are part of a story that, along with the use of Rune Priests, presents Russ and the Space Wolves as hypocrites.

[Hfran Morkai]

Alien has less extreme connotations than put forward here. The term alien can be used to describe an object/organism that isn't in it's natural habitat, for instance the Harlequin ladybird (chose this example due to my universities research ^_^ ) is an alien species to the UK because it doesn't belong here.

 

However I'm fairly certain it doesn't mean quite that in this story. I personally believe it to simply mean the creature was more intelligent than a Terran wolf.

 

And of course there were no wolves on Fenris, they were all out kicking alien and heretic backside!

[Pcm979]

Tell me if I'm wrong, because I'm certainly no Space Wolves scholar, but I thought that the Wolves of Fenris were around before the SW? Doesn't that rule out the possibility that they're failed SW right there?

[Zynk Kaladin]

I get the feeling that the "wolves" are something more than just vat born in the Dark Age of Technology. Perhaps they are a lot like the Watchers in the Dark. In A Thousand Sons the wolves obviously reacted to Magnus differently because of his psychic abilities. If I remember correctly they looked at him with a bit of recognition. As Durfast said, the wolves also recognize the 1k son's demons and are non too happy about seeing them. The wolves are definitely something else, something more. But what exactly is just speculation.

 

I believe they are some sort of anti-demons in disguise, but what do I know?

[Hfran Morkai]

Tell me if I'm wrong, because I'm certainly no Space Wolves scholar, but I thought that the Wolves of Fenris were around before the SW? Doesn't that rule out the possibility that they're failed SW right there?

 

I think you might be on to something.

 

*Goes to check sources*

 

From the fifth edition codex Russ was known as the Wolf-King before the Emperor found him, at least that's how it reads to me.

 

"No man nor beast could best the Wolf-King

No tribe could stand against his armies

Within Russ' kingdom a truce

Existed between man and wolf

His court was attended by the fiercest

Warlords and the most beautiful of maidens."

 

-Page 8 of the fifth edition codex. If I had access to my other dexes (In storage for the summer :D) I would search them as well.

[Night Runner]

The Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons actually points to an earlier period, probably during the Dark Age of Technology, when the settlers were experimented upon in order to give them a chance of survival on our beloved deathworld called Fenris.

I don't agree with that at all

 

I think what it is saying is that when the settlers of Fenris got to Fenris there were already Xenos creatures there that looked like Wolves and Mammoths ect so they named them what they looked like and now no one questions that they are Xenos because they have been with them for so long but Magnus sees the irony of Russ being raised by Xenos while preaching about witchcraft

I agree, there is more than one way of explaining this.

 

It is clear that the wolves are intelligent and cause real problems for the pet demons of the Thousand Sons, but their origin is open to speculation.

 

Abhumans or Xenos, they are part of a story that, along with the use of Rune Priests, presents Russ and the Space Wolves as hypocrites.

I wasn't making any point, just summarizing what was written in the novel. Your view however, although interesting, is an opinion, or a different interpretation of what Magnus said. It is certainly not what was expressed.

[Grimtooth]

Tell me if I'm wrong, because I'm certainly no Space Wolves scholar, but I thought that the Wolves of Fenris were around before the SW? Doesn't that rule out the possibility that they're failed SW right there?

 

Well if we look at the fluff that calls him the Wolf King before he was discovered by the Emperor as well as the saga that says he was raised by a wolf bitch, then they must have been there before Russ landed on Fenris as a child which would be before the legions were ever created.

[hmk17]

I agree, there is more than one way of explaining this.

 

It is clear that the wolves are intelligent and cause real problems for the pet demons of the Thousand Sons, but their origin is open to speculation.

 

Abhumans or Xenos, they are part of a story that, along with the use of Rune Priests, presents Russ and the Space Wolves as hypocrites.

 

 

Well, from the Thousand Sons perspective the Rune Priests were hypocrites. However, Abnett will probably have a perspective that reverses the opinion and shows that Magnus' hubris blinded him to the subtle dangers of the warp. Meanwhile, Russ' full distrust of the warp, lead his people to another potentially more stable path to using psykers. In other words, the other side of the coin.

 

In every HH book that focuses on a legion, there is a bit of back story to the primarch(s) and their union with the legion. Russ' is one of the MOST widely known of those tales, and I expect that Abnett will go to great lengths to cement the ground work before the tie-in to Thousand Sons.

[Grimtooth]

I agree, there is more than one way of explaining this.

 

It is clear that the wolves are intelligent and cause real problems for the pet demons of the Thousand Sons, but their origin is open to speculation.

 

Abhumans or Xenos, they are part of a story that, along with the use of Rune Priests, presents Russ and the Space Wolves as hypocrites.

 

 

Well, from the Thousand Sons perspective the Rune Priests were hypocrites. However, Abnett will probably have a perspective that reverses the opinion and shows that Magnus' hubris blinded him to the subtle dangers of the warp. Meanwhile, Russ' full distrust of the warp, lead his people to another potentially more stable path to using psykers. In other words, the other side of the coin.

 

In every HH book that focuses on a legion, there is a bit of back story to the primarch(s) and their union with the legion. Russ' is one of the MOST widely known of those tales, and I expect that Abnett will go to great lengths to cement the ground work before the tie-in to Thousand Sons.

 

Well I saw a clear difference between the rune priests and the 1k Sons.

 

The 1k Sons were actively pursuing knowledge of xenos or chaos worshipping use of the warp for their own means. Their own ego made them think that they could control these powers and thus were not in danger of the true extent of chaos. Even Magnus made the mistake of thinking he was in control when in fact he just brokered a deal for the 1k Sons that he ended up having to pay in full. The Book of Magnus contained all these damned spells and rituals and it goes to Ahirman and what does he do? He thinks he is good enough to do the Rubric and look what that caused to the legion.

 

The rune priest respected the power of the warp. It was never in the pursuit of rituals or the use of alien knowledge to make themselves even stronger.

[Gree]

The 1k Sons were actively pursuing knowledge of xenos or chaos worshipping use of the warp for their own means.

 

I would hardly say activly. Unknowingly perhaps. Remember, most of the Thousand Sons had no idea that the Chaos Gods existed at all. It seems that only Magnus knew of the Chaos Gods. Going by Ahriman's thoughts and explantions for the tutelaries he had no idea of the gods.

 

And I can't even recall them doing anything about xenos.

 

The Book of Magnus contained all these damned spells and rituals and it goes to Ahirman and what does he do? He thinks he is good enough to do the Rubric and look what that caused to the legion.

 

He saved it? Forgive for thinking this but if Ahriman did not perform the Rubric the Thousand Sons would be utterly and completely infested with mutation. Going by Ahriman's experiances it was etheir that or let his Legion become chaos spawn.

 

Well I saw a clear difference between the rune priests and the 1k Sons.

 

The rune priest respected the power of the warp. It was never in the pursuit of rituals or the use of alien knowledge to make themselves even stronger.

 

Well here's thing. Psykers as a whole were banned by the Emperor. Not just sorcery.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

until we have a full story, reporting half facts is kinda like driving a car with tired on one side...your just going in circles.

 

before i judge and damn the Wolves use of sorcery based on macneil's scribbles and the (sadly) often retconned Collected Heresy, i'll wait for abnett's portrayal of the events and then make a decision.

 

WLK

[Grimtooth]

I read Thousand Sons a few months ago, but was there even one instance of Wyrmdrake even using his psychic powers? I remember him once going into the aether with Ahirman, but at the time he was just gathering information to use against the Thousand Sons, but cannot think of a single other time that the rune priest used any psychic powers.

[Black2Jack1]

Didn't he use his powers briefly while fighting the tentacles in the cave? While protecting Ahriman?

[Captain Idaho]

Let's get it right people, the Emperor did not ban Psykers, he banned Sorcery and the Space Marines having a Libarium or any sanction Psykers at all. All the other instituions within the fledgling Imperium that made use of psykers could continue to do so.

 

There are many questions why the Space Marines alone took the brunt of the ban. The answer is simple; the Legions of Astartes were the only organisations that were not monitored and controlled and therefore could not be trusted by the Imperium like the Navigators and Astropaths etc.

 

Now, it seems to me that a few of the impulsive Bloodclaws on the forum are jumping to the conclusion that Magnus was lying when he revealed the nature of the wolves of Fenris. This is understandable, because the implications of this are severe:

 

The world of Fenris is populated by humans who have been "mutated" and with the Canis Helix. Anyone noticed that Russ was more sophistocated than he let on? Was this to fool his enemies? Of course not! A competetant enemy would not judge a warriors skill and cunning purely on appearance! No this was because if Russ was savage then the savagary of his warriors would be understandable. No one would question or review their geneseed to establish where the Canis Helix really came from...

 

It's in the people of Fenris already! The genetic engineering they received to assist their integration into the ecosystem involved the Canis Helix. Genetic engineering being what it is in most science fiction stories :rolleyes: we can be sure it was a little imprecise, resulting in humans with all the savagary and affinty to the wolf. Of course some went too far and this meant the various Wolves of Fenris had closer origins to the first settlers than we or the Imperium may have considered wholesome.

 

Of course the Canis Helix may actually come from Russ, but there is undeniably something in the genetic make up of the people of Fenris and it's wolves that makes this still relevant.

 

It's worth noting that the people of Fenris were there long before Russ. Therefore the interaction of the people and the world they lived in had nothing to do with him.

 

On supporting note, why do the Wolves accept a Primarch into their pack without a connection to Humanity?

 

So what does this mean to the Space Wolves? Well genetic mutation is not very popular within the Imperium and a Legion with a poluted Geneseed is unacceptable. Remember that the Thousand Sons were to be disbanded and destroyed until Magnus "saved" them? The Emperor's children had an accident in inception and were reduced in numbers initially as their geneseed became unacceptably poluted?

 

Whilst a certain amount of genetic variance was acceptable in the Legions, the recruiting base of the Space Wolves is full of humans who are essentially mutated in the eyes of the Imperium. What's more, they form bonds of friendship and live alongside wolves that are mutant humans.

 

So yes it is a controversal piece of back ground fiction.

 

But then why is Magnus lying? What did he have to gain but revealing the origin of the peoples of Fenris to his Captains? They certainly couldn't care less about the origins of Fenris. If anything the knowledge only showed the Thousand Sons that their greatest nemesis was actually closer to them then anyone cared to admit.

 

If Magnus wasn't lying, was he mistaken? Unlikely. He was a master of his craft, second only to the Emperor in the mortal universe (that we know of). You either have the ability or you don't.

 

My question is though, why are Space Wolf fans taking such a defensive stance? We always knew they were deviant (remember the Wulfen?) and if I was a fan of Russ I would embrace this. After all it is part of their charm I suspect it is because many of the newer Space Wolves fans have been enamoured with the inter-Legion rivarlies and use as their justification of their side things like "the Thousand Sons are deviants", "Magnus was a mutant", "Space Wolves are more stable" etc.

[Gree]

Actually I would like to submit my theory that their are no wolves on Fenris. Instead there is simply giant killer squirrels who look like wolves. Don't believe me? Look at the Canis Wolfborn model. It looks rather goofy. It explains everything.

 

Didn't he use his powers briefly while fighting the tentacles in the cave? While protecting Ahriman?

 

Correct.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I read Thousand Sons a few months ago, but was there even one instance of Wyrmdrake even using his psychic powers? I remember him once going into the aether with Ahirman, but at the time he was just gathering information to use against the Thousand Sons, but cannot think of a single other time that the rune priest used any psychic powers.

 

Until Nikeea, he would have had no reason not to use the powers. After the council, I do not remember him using the powers.

[Grey Mage]

The rune priest respected the power of the warp. It was never in the pursuit of rituals or the use of alien knowledge to make themselves even stronger.

 

Well here's thing. Psykers as a whole were banned by the Emperor. Not just sorcery.

And THAT is where the retcons in this series go horribly, horribly wrong.

 

In all previous versions Sorcerory was banned, not Psychers. It was the way in wich they did things, the how, not the what, that was anathema.

 

Because Librarians were present at the battle of the Palace, to defend against the sorcerers of the traitor legions.

 

*shrugs* as for the "no wolves on fenris" I can only speculate- and I figure its about the old colonists. In the william king books it talks about how there had once been great metal cities on fenris, and the people had lived in them, until some sort of nuclear holocaust. This means they would have been a rather advanced people- as one might expect of the starfarers before old night.

 

We know something on fenris stopped a tyranid invasion. Stopped it cold.

 

Perhaps these things are linked?

 

A people who are under attack by creatures, gribblies, from beyond the pale. Their picket/scout ships encounter them and are destroyed but manage to send back information. The people know there will eventually be a planetary battle, so they marshal their weapons and re-engineer soldiers and/or animals to fight at their sides with enhanced reflexes and stamina. Remember, a Fenrisian Wolf can get to the size of a Rhino APC, wich is about the size of a Carnifex.

 

They send their most powerful missiles at the mother ships and their spacecraft go down fighting. The spores that hit the planet lock it into a viscous combat, the fallout causes horrendous problems.... the Fenrisians win, but only just. Most of their people no longer have the industrial support needed to return to their old lives. Their cities are in ruins. Some of them flee to the caves beneath their ancient cities, others take up the life of a wanderer, looking to the seas and islands for sustenance. Only the men of Iron keep any of their more advanced technologies, a few communication devices and some basic industry.

 

Over thousands of years their cultures and societies develop through old night. The animals that had been born to fight at their sides against one of the greatest terrors of the universe run wild, and free. Leman Russ lands in their territory, and sensing the strength of his spirit part of that old bond calls to the bitch who takes him in.

 

Perhaps the additions included some of the sensitivity that allows a Human to become a psycher, and this is why the wolves can see the lil imps? I dont know. Probly no one does but the author.

 

But, as they say, the rest would be history.

[hmk17]

Let's get it right people, the Emperor did not ban Psykers, he banned Sorcery and the Space Marines having a Libarium or any sanction Psykers at all. All the other instituions within the fledgling Imperium that made use of psykers could continue to do so.

 

There are many questions why the Space Marines alone took the brunt of the ban. The answer is simple; the Legions of Astartes were the only organisations that were not monitored and controlled and therefore could not be trusted by the Imperium like the Navigators and Astropaths etc.

 

Now, it seems to me that a few of the impulsive Bloodclaws on the forum are jumping to the conclusion that Magnus was lying when he revealed the nature of the wolves of Fenris. This is understandable, because the implications of this are severe:

 

The world of Fenris is populated by humans who have been "mutated" and with the Canis Helix. Anyone noticed that Russ was more sophistocated than he let on? Was this to fool his enemies? Of course not! A competetant enemy would not judge a warriors skill and cunning purely on appearance! No this was because if Russ was savage then the savagary of his warriors would be understandable. No one would question or review their geneseed to establish where the Canis Helix really came from...

 

It's in the people of Fenris already! The genetic engineering they received to assist their integration into the ecosystem involved the Canis Helix. Genetic engineering being what it is in most science fiction stories :) we can be sure it was a little imprecise, resulting in humans with all the savagary and affinty to the wolf. Of course some went too far and this meant the various Wolves of Fenris had closer origins to the first settlers than we or the Imperium may have considered wholesome.

 

Of course the Canis Helix may actually come from Russ, but there is undeniably something in the genetic make up of the people of Fenris and it's wolves that makes this still relevant.

 

It's worth noting that the people of Fenris were there long before Russ. Therefore the interaction of the people and the world they lived in had nothing to do with him.

 

On supporting note, why do the Wolves accept a Primarch into their pack without a connection to Humanity?

 

So what does this mean to the Space Wolves? Well genetic mutation is not very popular within the Imperium and a Legion with a poluted Geneseed is unacceptable. Remember that the Thousand Sons were to be disbanded and destroyed until Magnus "saved" them? The Emperor's children had an accident in inception and were reduced in numbers initially as their geneseed became unacceptably poluted?

 

Whilst a certain amount of genetic variance was acceptable in the Legions, the recruiting base of the Space Wolves is full of humans who are essentially mutated in the eyes of the Imperium. What's more, they form bonds of friendship and live alongside wolves that are mutant humans.

 

So yes it is a controversal piece of back ground fiction.

 

But then why is Magnus lying? What did he have to gain but revealing the origin of the peoples of Fenris to his Captains? They certainly couldn't care less about the origins of Fenris. If anything the knowledge only showed the Thousand Sons that their greatest nemesis was actually closer to them then anyone cared to admit.

 

If Magnus wasn't lying, was he mistaken? Unlikely. He was a master of his craft, second only to the Emperor in the mortal universe (that we know of). You either have the ability or you don't.

 

My question is though, why are Space Wolf fans taking such a defensive stance? We always knew they were deviant (remember the Wulfen?) and if I was a fan of Russ I would embrace this. After all it is part of their charm I suspect it is because many of the newer Space Wolves fans have been enamoured with the inter-Legion rivarlies and use as their justification of their side things like "the Thousand Sons are deviants", "Magnus was a mutant", "Space Wolves are more stable" etc.

 

The answer on Russ is painfully simple. Magnus states that the Canis Helix goes back to the original colonization of Fenris. Which would have been well before the Age of Strife.

 

Now the Emperor preserved a lot of technology, especially in the realm of genetics. When he created the primarchs, he built each of them with specifics in mind. It is no stretch to think that Russ was built to be a Survivor, and had the Canis Helix added to his DNA at conception in order to bring that about. It also seems less coincidence that he would land on a world where the same DNA modifier was used extensively.

 

However, you jump to the conclusion on mutated humans. Overcome Astartes become Wulfen. Overcome humans would similarly not become full wolves, but a lesser wulfen.

 

wolves being described as "alien" later in narration, McNeil discounts the mutant human theory there. And again, daemons do not fear humans... even if they now look like wolves.

 

 

The more I think about it, the more I am beginning to suspect this will tie into the Tyranids in the end.

[Grim Dog Studios]

If the canis helix is already in the people of fenris, then why would they have to take it AGAIN to become a space wolf?

[Captain Idaho]

You're looking at the cliche, stereotypical definition of the word "mutant". Consider that the word scientific mutant actually doesn't mean a freakish monster, it is a reference to evolution. The men and Wolves of Fenris (or should that be men and men!?) have been artificially "evolved".

 

The problem comes from the Imperium's prejudice of such things. Space Marine geneseed is tithed, which alongside the break up of the Legions was none negotiable, unlike adherence to the Codex Astartes. If it transpires the "Wulfen Gene", the Canis Helix, is not supposed to be part of their geneseed, or there is something else in there which shouldn't be, or the genestock the Chapter recruits from is "polluted", or they mingle with genetic mutants (Wolves) then things would get a little difficult for the Space Wolves.

 

You know, that is an interesting plot line for a budding author to take on :blush: . Just imagine a revenge attack from the Thousand Sons, instead of force of arms (which hasn't favoured them in the past) they attempt to reveal the secret of Fenris' genetic linege, essentially letting the Imperium do their dirty work for them...

 

If the canis helix is already in the people of fenris, then why would they have to take it AGAIN to become a space wolf?

 

But do they? Could this be assumption from the Adeptus Mechanicus Genetors on something they didn't quite understand, in the abscence of the Emperor (who was the only person to fully understand Geneseed and Primarch genetic)? Maybe it is propaganda and cover ups?

[Grim Dog Studios]

The canis helix determines if someone is pure of heart and not corrupt, if they are corrupt they turn into a wulfen.

[Leonaides]

errrrr... I think you may be in error there amigo...

[Captain Idaho]

The canis helix determines if someone is pure of heart and not corrupt, if they are corrupt they turn into a wulfen.

 

The point isn't that the Canis Helix is neccessary good or bad, the point is the Imperium isn't that tolerant of any genetic deviance to their strict policy on stability.

[Grimtooth]

The canis helix determines if someone is pure of heart and not corrupt, if they are corrupt they turn into a wulfen.

 

The point isn't that the Canis Helix is neccessary good or bad, the point is the Imperium isn't that tolerant of any genetic deviance to their strict policy on stability.

 

And yet one of the most favored sons had huge wings sprouting from his back?

 

Not directed at you CI, but these threads get really annoying when people just spout out something of which they know nothing about or try to read into more then has been presented as canon.