No wolves on Fenris?

[Blckbuster]

am I the only one that really sees the space wolves and the wolves of fenris as lycanthropes in the paranormal sense?

[Vigrid]

You bring up good points Brother Ramses however it could be that the Canis Helix is only dormant in the native peoples of Fenris. So they all have it but they need to drink from the Cup in order to have it 'reactive' for lack of a better term. In our own DNA there are many genes that are just 'turned off' so theres no reason to assume it couldnt also apply to the Canis Helix.

[Grimtooth]

You bring up good points Brother Ramses however it could be that the Canis Helix is only dormant in the native peoples of Fenris. So they all have it but they need to drink from the Cup in order to have it 'reactive' for lack of a better term. In our own DNA there are many genes that are just 'turned off' so theres no reason to assume it couldnt also apply to the Canis Helix.

 

Except that Fenris was colonized before the Emperor ever created Russ' geneseed that contains the Canis Helix.

 

What you are proposing is that the Canis Helix was present in the native Fenrisians and wolves before the Emperor ever created it in the first place.

[Vigrid]

yeah i guess that is an issue. i got nothing then.

[eyescrossed]

SPOILER TAGS, PEOPLE.

[Night Runner]

You bring up good points Brother Ramses however it could be that the Canis Helix is only dormant in the native peoples of Fenris. So they all have it but they need to drink from the Cup in order to have it 'reactive' for lack of a better term. In our own DNA there are many genes that are just 'turned off' so theres no reason to assume it couldnt also apply to the Canis Helix.

 

Except that Fenris was colonized before the Emperor ever created Russ' geneseed that contains the Canis Helix.

 

What you are proposing is that the Canis Helix was present in the native Fenrisians and wolves before the Emperor ever created it in the first place.

You're right technically BR but you cannot say with certainty that the Emperor did not have anything to do with it. He was alive during the Dark Age of Technology, even before then, working behind the scenes. We all know that he is a master geneticist, so who can say that it was or was not his intention to alter the first Fenrisians on a genetical level to further his plans when he came to creating Russ. As you can see this is all in the realm of conjecture, supposition and speculation, therefore any conclusion reached is going to be unfounded, unprovable and ultimately inconclusive. Nonetheless I find it interesting! ^_^

[Emperor's Scourge]

Primarchs are highly adaptive creatures that have already undergone extensive genetic manipulation. Even an ordinary Space Marine can absorb memories and such from things they've eaten. Is it really so hard to imagine that Russ' life on Fenris and his resultant exposure to native fauna via ingestion etc etc didn't impart the Canis Helix upon him?

 

Its actually easier for you folks to believe that the Emperor willingly allowed the culmination of his extremely long life's work to undergo a "wolf like" mutation?

 

Personally, I think thats why the C/H is being retconned. Just as Sanguinius' wings are being explained by mutation during his time in the Warp. On one hand, GW is saying the Emperor is the most brilliant mind to ever grace humanity and on the other their prior explanation implied that he's a bit of a scientific screw up.

 

Then again, this wouldn't explain things if the original Terran VI Legion were mutated prior to joining with Russ. Not much information around on them though.

[Plastenarius]

Its actually easier for you folks to believe that the Emperor willingly allowed the culmination of his extremely long life's work to undergo a "wolf like" mutation?

 

While your assumptions about how the "Canis Helix" was introduced into the gene seed is legitimate; I'll point out that if there was another scientific genius in the Imperium he hasn't done anything to the scale that the Emperor has. Can I get a 'Praise the God Emperor' or what?!?!

[Grimtooth]

Primarchs are highly adaptive creatures that have already undergone extensive genetic manipulation. Even an ordinary Space Marine can absorb memories and such from things they've eaten. Is it really so hard to imagine that Russ' life on Fenris and his resultant exposure to native fauna via ingestion etc etc didn't impart the Canis Helix upon him?

 

Its actually easier for you folks to believe that the Emperor willingly allowed the culmination of his extremely long life's work to undergo a "wolf like" mutation?

 

Personally, I think thats why the C/H is being retconned. Just as Sanguinius' wings are being explained by mutation during his time in the Warp. On one hand, GW is saying the Emperor is the most brilliant mind to ever grace humanity and on the other their prior explanation implied that he's a bit of a scientific screw up.

 

Then again, this wouldn't explain things if the original Terran VI Legion were mutated prior to joining with Russ. Not much information around on them though.

 

Current canon specifically points out that the Emperor gave each primarch something a little special. It is right in the Space Wolves codex. And if we take the pending statements regarding Prospero Burns, the Space Wolves little genetic hiccup was by design, not by accident.

 

In addition, the Emperor did not know where Chaos sent his primarchs as babies, just that he was able to protect them from being destroyed. So he would have had no idea that Russ would end up on Fenris.

[hmk17]

Well, all the "marks" of the Primarchs are genetic hiccups. The Primarchs' DNA was engineered off the Emperor's and designed to be stable in and of themselves. So... when you take something that profoundly different and graft it into a base human... things are going get a little interesting as the human body tries to cope with it.

 

Blood Angels got the "darker nature" of Sanguinius

Thousand Sons became psykers

Space Wolves got the "beast with in"

Salamanders' skin and eyes change color (due to exposure to Nocturne)

Raven Guard have monstrous mutations (thanks to Corax's meddling)

Luna Wolves / Sons of Horus had a reaction where many began to physically look like their Primarch

Death Guard got heightened immunities

 

 

When combined with the various chemical and genetic transferrers, who knows what causes half these things. In the case of the Wolves, we do... the Canis Helix.

 

As I said in my manifesto, 1 page back, it is not a stretch to believe that the Canis Helix does pre-dates the founding of the Imperium. It is advanced science even for the Iron Priests. The Emperor may have created it long ago, he might not have. But I am willing to bet that the Canis Helix was on Fenris prior to the Emperor ever setting foot on the world.

 

Remember, the Canis Helix is given BEFORE the aspirants are given any of the standard implants or the 2 progenoid glands. Given the changes wrought, it had to be a core part of Leman Russ' DNA it to change the aspirants BEFORE they receive and of the chapter's geneseed.

 

What does it do?

 

1. Increased size and muscle mass

2. Enlarged Canines

3. Heightened senses

4. Increased body hair

5. The psychological prescence of the "Beast With In" which allows the Marine an extra edge.

 

According to Thousands Sons, the Canis Helix is used as a genetic primer for the Geneseed and other implants. (Note that this is not stated by Magnus, but by one of his cpatains who had spent time on Fenris. So it seems that much is common knowledge). Just as we use primer on models, so is the Canis Helix for Space Wolves. Sometimes, the primer doesn't mesh with the model and problems ensue from that.

 

What happens when someone can't control the "Beast With In"/Wolf Spirit? They lose it and begin to transform into Wulfen. Those that master the beast, now have an extra edge over standard Marines.

 

The use of the Canis Helix for the Space Wolves Legion, strikes me as something done purposefully to create a more elite, elite warrior. Abnett said in an interview his position is that the Emperor created the Space Wolves to be the Legion to take down another Legion, should something go awry. This plays into that.

 

 

The problem with your argument Ramses, is that while there is evidence that it is NOT in the humans of Fenris (On which there is some evidence and we agree). However, you assume that it is ALSO not in the wolves; of which you have no evidence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. My claim resets on the shaky foundation of "Magnus said it", something you accept yet also reject. Why would Magnus broach the subject of the Canis Helix in talking about the Wolf's DNA, if it did not apply to the circumstance at hand. Regardless of how the wolves came to be, Magnus overtly stated the Canis Helix was a part of it. Take it or leave it.

 

While we are wanton to disregard Magnus as a whole based on the full story, it was done for that reason. There are some like that whelp of Guilliman who took everything Magnus had to say as law. The trick is figuring out where the warp tainted primarch stops and the factual knowledge he gained began. Given the nature of the argument, I really hope to see this come up in Prospero Burns or in later stuff. Until then, the mental sparring of well-crafted arguments is fun and challenging.

 

 

As to the original Terran Legion... I am suspicious about something. There is a Fenrisian Legend that tells of the coming of the Allfather and when he called Russ to the stars. Russ went all over Fenris and hand selected the best warriors he could find. He took 10,000 warriors total with him... and they were never seen again. Given Abnett's talk about a legion created to take down another legion... it makes me wonder if the new fluff will have NO Terran Legion, but instead the entire Legion has its origins on Fenris.

[Captain Idaho]

Regardless whether the Canis Helix originates from the geneseed of the Space Wolves, Russ or the people of Fenris, it doesn't change the "fact" there is something distinctly human inside the wolves. Until Magnus was proven mistaken/false, then I am inclined to believe him (with a healthy amount of acceptance that things could change).

 

Incidently, Tales of Heresy has some good fluff in it, specifically regarding the Space Wolves. The old Space Wolves, the ones not from Fenris, are mentioned in it. I will have a read of it again and see what sort of savagary/genetic lineage they have in comparison to their brothers.

 

Remember, the Canis Helix is given BEFORE the aspirants are given any of the standard implants or the 2 progenoid glands. Given the changes wrought, it had to be a core part of Leman Russ' DNA it to change the aspirants BEFORE they receive and of the chapter's geneseed.

 

What does it do?

 

1. Increased size and muscle mass

2. Enlarged Canines

3. Heightened senses

4. Increased body hair

5. The psychological prescence of the "Beast With In" which allows the Marine an extra edge.

 

Does grant increased size and muscle mass? The other Space Marines have this but don't have the Canis Helix. It could be that it increases muscle mass in it's interaction with the other Space Marines organs that do this? Who knows.

 

Thing is, the Canis Helix is not neccessarily essential to the activation of Space Wolf, as each Legion (and then Chapter) has it's own ways of bringing on the changes of the initiation. It's possible the Canis Helix has additional effect on the Space Wolves not forseen by the Emperor (but he accepted and embraced the Space Wolves so it's not a problem), but not a neccessity to act as a primer. Imagine the Space Wolves could possibly use the Blood Angels Rite of Esxanguination (sp?) using Russ' blood instead of Sanguinius and still become Space Wolves? Possible.

[Blckbuster]

am I the only one that really sees the space wolves and the wolves of fenris as lycanthropes in the paranormal sense?

 

feels cheesy quoting myself, but I wanted to clarify that I meant as an explanation for resistance to outside corruption, ability to see spirits, and unnaturally high intelligence(for the fenris wolves) and ability to commune with animals(for space wolves)

[Matt D]

Its actually easier for you folks to believe that the Emperor willingly allowed the culmination of his extremely long life's work to undergo a "wolf like" mutation?

 

While your assumptions about how the "Canis Helix" was introduced into the gene seed is legitimate; I'll point out that if there was another scientific genius in the Imperium he hasn't done anything to the scale that the Emperor has. Can I get a 'Praise the God Emperor' or what?!?!

Fabius Bile.

he has cracked the code. he just has not done it to the scale that the emp has...yet

[hmk17]

Regardless whether the Canis Helix originates from the geneseed of the Space Wolves, Russ or the people of Fenris, it doesn't change the "fact" there is something distinctly human inside the wolves. Until Magnus was proven mistaken/false, then I am inclined to believe him (with a healthy amount of acceptance that things could change).

 

Incidently, Tales of Heresy has some good fluff in it, specifically regarding the Space Wolves. The old Space Wolves, the ones not from Fenris, are mentioned in it. I will have a read of it again and see what sort of savagary/genetic lineage they have in comparison to their brothers.

 

Remember, the Canis Helix is given BEFORE the aspirants are given any of the standard implants or the 2 progenoid glands. Given the changes wrought, it had to be a core part of Leman Russ' DNA it to change the aspirants BEFORE they receive and of the chapter's geneseed.

 

What does it do?

 

1. Increased size and muscle mass

2. Enlarged Canines

3. Heightened senses

4. Increased body hair

5. The psychological prescence of the "Beast With In" which allows the Marine an extra edge.

 

Does grant increased size and muscle mass? The other Space Marines have this but don't have the Canis Helix. It could be that it increases muscle mass in it's interaction with the other Space Marines organs that do this? Who knows.

 

Thing is, the Canis Helix is not neccessarily essential to the activation of Space Wolf, as each Legion (and then Chapter) has it's own ways of bringing on the changes of the initiation. It's possible the Canis Helix has additional effect on the Space Wolves not forseen by the Emperor (but he accepted and embraced the Space Wolves so it's not a problem), but not a neccessity to act as a primer. Imagine the Space Wolves could possibly use the Blood Angels Rite of Esxanguination (sp?) using Russ' blood instead of Sanguinius and still become Space Wolves? Possible.

 

I'll say what Ramses wouldn't...

 

Your ignorance is deafening at this point. Read Space Wolves fluff before trying to argue about Space Wolves fluff, mmkay.

 

Also, YES, YES it does change things. Especially as Magnus does not say they are human at all. He talks about the human colonists being masters of genetic manipulation and stating that Fenris has no natural life forms. He hints that the Canis Helix had a play in the creation of the wolves and that being the genetic primer for Russ' geneseed is just an obvious part of it. Thus your statement is incorrect.

 

And here's where it pays to have studied literature... Author revelation trumps dialogue. Since the author is that mystic window that allows insight into the character's thoughts (also known as why books always trump movies) we can see those revelations from the byproduct of that conversation. What is the ONE word used to describe the wolf's core, when Phosis T'kar locks eyes? A-L-I-E-N, not H-U-M-A-N.

 

 

And I am well aware of Wolf at the Door in Tales of Heresy... The old wolves are from Fenris... the 13th Company, in fact. And they are every bit the Space Wolves we know and love.

 

Of the 200 Huscarls that underwent the process to become Space Marines, only 40 survived. Russ then created a new Company (13th company) around the survivors. The rest of the Legion begins to call that company the "Grey Beards" recognizing how old they were when the process happened.

 

Like I said before, I am suspicious that they might be changing the fluff... The above Heresy era stuff can go both ways, only Prospero Burns will tell.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Too much red meat hmk17 or a bad day at work? :)

[Captain Idaho]

Regardless whether the Canis Helix originates from the geneseed of the Space Wolves, Russ or the people of Fenris, it doesn't change the "fact" there is something distinctly human inside the wolves. Until Magnus was proven mistaken/false, then I am inclined to believe him (with a healthy amount of acceptance that things could change).

 

Incidently, Tales of Heresy has some good fluff in it, specifically regarding the Space Wolves. The old Space Wolves, the ones not from Fenris, are mentioned in it. I will have a read of it again and see what sort of savagary/genetic lineage they have in comparison to their brothers.

 

Remember, the Canis Helix is given BEFORE the aspirants are given any of the standard implants or the 2 progenoid glands. Given the changes wrought, it had to be a core part of Leman Russ' DNA it to change the aspirants BEFORE they receive and of the chapter's geneseed.

 

What does it do?

 

1. Increased size and muscle mass

2. Enlarged Canines

3. Heightened senses

4. Increased body hair

5. The psychological prescence of the "Beast With In" which allows the Marine an extra edge.

 

Does grant increased size and muscle mass? The other Space Marines have this but don't have the Canis Helix. It could be that it increases muscle mass in it's interaction with the other Space Marines organs that do this? Who knows.

 

Thing is, the Canis Helix is not neccessarily essential to the activation of Space Wolf, as each Legion (and then Chapter) has it's own ways of bringing on the changes of the initiation. It's possible the Canis Helix has additional effect on the Space Wolves not forseen by the Emperor (but he accepted and embraced the Space Wolves so it's not a problem), but not a neccessity to act as a primer. Imagine the Space Wolves could possibly use the Blood Angels Rite of Esxanguination (sp?) using Russ' blood instead of Sanguinius and still become Space Wolves? Possible.

 

I'll say what Ramses wouldn't...

 

Your ignorance is deafening at this point. Read Space Wolves fluff before trying to argue about Space Wolves fluff, mmkay.

 

Also, YES, YES it does change things. Especially as Magnus does not say they are human at all. He talks about the human colonists being masters of genetic manipulation and stating that Fenris has no natural life forms. He hints that the Canis Helix had a play in the creation of the wolves and that being the genetic primer for Russ' geneseed is just an obvious part of it. Thus your statement is incorrect.

 

And here's where it pays to have studied literature... Author revelation trumps dialogue. Since the author is that mystic window that allows insight into the character's thoughts (also known as why books always trump movies) we can see those revelations from the byproduct of that conversation. What is the ONE word used to describe the wolf's core, when Phosis T'kar locks eyes? A-L-I-E-N, not H-U-M-A-N.

 

 

And I am well aware of Wolf at the Door in Tales of Heresy... The old wolves are from Fenris... the 13th Company, in fact. And they are every bit the Space Wolves we know and love.

 

Of the 200 Huscarls that underwent the process to become Space Marines, only 40 survived. Russ then created a new Company (13th company) around the survivors. The rest of the Legion begins to call that company the "Grey Beards" recognizing how old they were when the process happened.

 

Like I said before, I am suspicious that they might be changing the fluff... The above Heresy era stuff can go both ways, only Prospero Burns will tell.

 

You call me ignorant yet haven't even responded to what I said in any meaningful manner?! If your read my post I actually said there is something Human inside the wolves, as implied by Magnus, but I didn't say that was set in stone, only likely.

 

Why is it so hard to understand that the actual reality of the Space Wolves genetics might be slightly different to what is portrayed in Codex Space Wolves? Time and again we have the BL novels showing us that the fiction of the Codex books etc is supposed to be historical accounts and not neccessarily 100% accurate, where as the novels are the actual events.

 

If you don't accept the BL fiction then that is fine, but then you wouldn't be able to agrue with this because it would be pointless.

 

And here's where it pays to have studied literature... Author revelation trumps dialogue. Since the author is that mystic window that allows insight into the character's thoughts (also known as why books always trump movies) we can see those revelations from the byproduct of that conversation. What is the ONE word used to describe the wolf's core, when Phosis T'kar locks eyes? A-L-I-E-N, not H-U-M-A-N.

 

And here is where it pays to study grammar. Alien means the following:

 

1. extraterrestrial being: a being from another planet or another part of the universe, especially in works of science fiction

2. noncitizen resident of country: a citizen of a country other than the one he or she is currently in

3. outsider: somebody who does not belong to or does not feel accepted by a group or society

 

 

adj

1. strange: outside somebody's normal or previous experience and seeming strange and sometimes threatening

an alien practice

 

2. inconsistent with somebody or something: not in keeping or totally incompatible with the nature of somebody or something

ideas that were alien to her philosophy

 

3. not from country: not a citizen of, or not belonging to, the country in question

4. extraterrestrial: from another world or part of the universe, or relating to extraterrestrial beings, especially in works of science fiction

an alien spacecraft

 

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

See I can be partonising too. But constructively, the word Alien could mean anything in this context, something he doesn't expect or understand, and actual xenos creature.. A Human becoming wolf is an Alien if he doesn't understand the creature or found it strange. It was alien to him.

 

The "revelation" you refer to is that he found the creature to be unsual, unexpected and unknown. Nothing more, nothing less.