Sniper Scouts

[Lord Viper]

Hello friends,

 

I'm just starting to build my first SM army, and as you can imagine I'm really new in the game. Yesterday I had a question but wasn't able to put it to your consideration until today.

 

I have a small (5-man) scout squad that I'm just putting together. It's my first Scout squad, and I was wondering if you could suggest: HOW MANY of them should be built with sniper rifles ? Also, are sniper rifles a good/moderate choice for scouts ?

 

Our community of players is small, and no one here is a power-player (yet). Most of the people play SM, and we got a couple of players with necron, tyranids and orks. We're all learning and although I don't want to power-build my army, I could use a good starting army choice, so I would really like to know your opinion about this.

 

To summarize: How many snipers (if any) are good, and how many are too much (or too little) ?

 

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[greatcrusade08]

I have a small (5-man) scout squad that I'm just putting together. It's my first Scout squad, and I was wondering if you could suggest: HOW MANY of them should be built with sniper rifles ? Also, are sniper rifles a good/moderate choice for scouts ?

 

if your using snipers its the whole squad or not at all, also ten man sniper squads are far better

[Jackelope King]

Unfortunately, 0 is the best number of sniper rifles you can take. It comes down to sheer numbers: 50% of all your scouts' shooting will miss, and of that 50%, only 50% will wound. Now that part is, at least, reliable. Unfortunately, it means that even with a 10-man squad of snipers (including a heavy-weapon Scout and a Sergeant), you're meting out a paltry two wounds per turn, which practically everyone gets a save against (oh, you can rip right through Ork armor... yay). And rending is, unfortunately, gimped by being slapped on a single-shot weapon. The assault cannon gets this right, at least.

 

At a glance, they seem good against MCs, until you realize that all the MCs who matter get a save against their weapons (barring that rare Rending). Most of the shots will just bounce off MC armor, and the low wound potential of the squad is really off-putting.

 

If you want to use Scouts (and however much I love them, paying for BS3 models in a Marine codex is painful), it's probably got to be Bolters. At least Bolters can put down more shots in rapid-fire range to overcome the Scouts' weaker BS and deny saves to at least some of the weaker models in the game.

[Hellios]

I have a small (5-man) scout squad that I'm just putting together. It's my first Scout squad, and I was wondering if you could suggest: HOW MANY of them should be built with sniper rifles ? Also, are sniper rifles a good/moderate choice for scouts ?

 

if your using snipers its the whole squad or not at all, also ten man sniper squads are far better

 

I back this statement up if your are going to take them... maybe even two squads... but I wouldn't take any more... Telion is also worth taking in a sniper squad and if you take him you might want to take a missile launcher... if you don't take him I would still probably take a missile launcher over a heavy bolter... but that's just me.

 

A squad of 10 will probably just about take one wound off a MC assuming you get a rending hit. As for other uses of scouts (which other people have better knowledge of)... I wouldn't use them unless I planned to use infiltrate/scout/outflank ability, Land Speeder Storm or just wanted a cheap unit/scoring unit. If you happen to be using Codex Dark Angels... note your scouts are elite and hit on a 3+ woot... I miss hitting on a 2+

[Lord Viper]

Thanks for your answers.

 

Seems like I won't be using the sniper rifles then... or maybe, I'll just go crazy and put the rifles on all of them. Looks like a "flip a coin" situation he he he.

 

I didn't get the "MC" abbreviation and analysis. According to the glossary of terms of the B&C, it's "Master Crafted". Could you elaborate please ? Remember I'm a lowly noob.

 

Thanks again

[Sparhawk]

MC is for Monstrous Creature

[DarkGuard]

Don't let people scare you off Scouts, they are pretty good. 10 sniper rifles will on average only cause 2 savable wounds, but then that's why you use a heavy bolter. A small blast marker that's poisoned on 2+? Yes please!.

 

Scouts are different to normal Marines. They aren't too good in shooting, and they can't fight well. So what do you do with them? Well they're cheaper, the main damage dealer of many Space Marine Squads (the Sergeant) has the same stats as others of his kind, so they aren't bad. For snipers, 5 men with camo cloaks on your objective in terrain will be hard to shift unless your opponent sends a unit with flamers to get them out.

 

10 Sniper Scouts have the potential to put out more damage at range than a Tactical Squad (longer range remember), and can infiltrate and then Scout move into good positions. Camo cloaks keep them durable, 2+ save when going to ground. A good objective holder unit. I have one assembled and ready to use, it's just I prefer my Tactical Squad.

 

Other Scouts can be good as well, load them up with shotguns in a Storm and drive by. Remember, they are scoring and they are cheaper than Marines.

 

If you want some help with Scouts would be best to contact GC08, he's very experienced with them and wrote numerous Tacticas on them that are well worth a read.

 

But yeah, 10 snipers are better than 5 :).

 

EDIT: just realised GC08 has already posted. Sorry mate, I'm getting too tired for this :)

[kiwitexansfan]

I play a couple of squads with Missile Launchers..... but admittedly that is because I think they are cool rather than effective.

[Koremu]

I generally found them tobe rubbish and have relegated mine to the back of the miniatures cabinet. I think that if you are using them, you have to build a list to use them with, and I don't feel the fit with my preferred style of mobile warfare.

[DarkGuard]

I generally found them tobe rubbish and have relegated mine to the back of the miniatures cabinet. I think that if you are using them, you have to build a list to use them with, and I don't feel the fit with my preferred style of mobile warfare.

 

I agree with you on a couple of points Koremu. I disagree a little in that I feel they can be effective, especially with Tellion, but like you they are sitting in my spare case because they don't really fit in my mech list.

[Frosty the Pyro]

point for point 10 man scout snipers squads are more killy than rapid fire sternguard (helfire) Vs 2+ saves (asuming no cover or inv), at greater range and with pinning. Sternguard of course are more mobile (rapid fire weapons instead of heavy) and, more CC attacks and have a better save. Of course point for point scouts have just under twice the wounds.

[yodaid764]

And they are objective holders!

[CaptinLoken]

I'm going to ride the middle in this topic. I'm sneaking in here to mention I run a full Scout army as well.

 

I run a 10 man unit of scouts 8 snipers telion and a Heavybolter.

The second unit runs a 4 man sniper team and ML and 4 bolters sargent with powerweapon.

This may seem odd but they points above really shine and chime in together well.

 

The key points are Bolters are more deadly as a unit approaches a fire team of snipers and the same goes with only 4 snipers in a unit.

2 hit and only possibly 1 wounding But the idea here isn't so much that it is possible it is when it does. Depending on the roll the unit can pin a unit with just little to no expended points. Generally there is two types of games. KILL POINTS and objectives. Troops are the focus to both of these game types. To deny the enemy to use them is an achievement in its own right. So even if you only run 4 snipers and a heavy team to snag an objective early in the game these unit is doing something by being there. Often times IN Scout armies I can shift my army before the game starts to the opposite side of the board. Scout snipers can be not so much a main focus but a suicide force in its own right. Setting just to scout squads like this in two apposing corners and looking over at your challanger saying EVERYTHING ELSE IS infiltrating or Reserves can cause a off set return, quickly divide a force which allows for scouts to rule better.....coming on one side heavy possibly that DREAD and 20 models going for 5 sniper scouts for the game practically draw away 700pts from your main force. I did that last game.

 

Somethings in 40k aren't about the dice rolls but the simple things that happen around the thought they are winning.

 

So my suggesting is that you need to drill out what your scouts are going to do. I would over all avoid BOLTER scouts... just because they are not going to be special enough to be effective in a Already tactical marine army I'm guessing your running. Then looking over the rest of the spure you are pawing over... Shotguns are great for extra dice before an assault but GC(GREATCRUSADE AKA SCOUT GOD)... scouts need a good Sargent to make them truly effective. I can't see a shotgun team being useful with out a storm.... CCW scouts are more wild, they can infiltrate, outflank and even ride in a storm and still be effective in a sudden struck some where early in the board. IN the wrap up Snipers are great for one or two things.... Sitting and drawing fire towards them or protecting a flank with cheap points. Look at your apposing lists. MUCH OF your choice is a reaction and a little bit of it is what you want to put down. ...

 

I like snipers So I usually field them. BUT MC(monstrous Creatures are SCARY to snipers teams ... YOu rarely do anything to them.) PLUS IF you play agaisnst army's like nids that are fearless it is better to bring in weapons like bolters.... but why not take marines for this then.

 

... I left this really open as a reply .... it comes down to there is no exact term or answer but you need it to work with your list.

[Giga]

If I was using sniper scouts, I'd run a 10 men unit with a heavy bolter with hellfire shells and camocloaks. I'd use them to camp objectives and, in rare games where the enemy will be able to take them out too soon (like if I'm playing against a colossus siege mortar-happy IG army, or someone with plenty of mm/hf speeders, etc.) I'd either reserve or outflank them. Lysander, with his bolster defenses, would work real well with them I think, either giving them a 2+ save or allowing me to omit taking camocloaks to save some points.

 

That being said, there's no reason (as far as competitive play goes) to ever take sniper scouts. They're a crappy unit overall, and that wouldn't be so bad if they didn't cost so much. You're much better off just getting tactical marines with a plasma cannon and a razorback to camp your objectives.

[Lord_Reven]

Now, in REALLY small games (500 - combat patorl ect.) taking a unit of scouts to simply fill up your troop choise can leave you with alot of points to spend on fast / heavy / leet choises. The only other time i personally would use scouts is if i was going to play Black Templars :lol:

[captain sox]

There seems to be a lot of misconception about Snipers. For 180 pts you can kit them out with cloaks, infiltrate them in good cover and give them that +1 cover save (usually a 3 plus cover save). Not may units in the entire Warhammer 40K game can get that kind of bonus.

 

Rending and pinning is good too. Any chance to get to make your opponent take a morale test is good. Rending is good against terminators, etc. Just today in an Apoc game, I had a 10 man sniper squad take out 3 Terminators in a turn. perhaps I was really lucky with my rolls, but hey, lets be honest: Luck is a factor in this game. Plus the Snipers were 30 inches away, so they were in no threat to be fired back on.

 

The trick is pick your targets - take the chance at the Termies and MC's. And heck, with Telion, you can even pick your kill.

 

I love snipers and will run them in all of my lists.

 

I now have over 70 scouts, on my way to 100+ for Apoc and other fun lists.

[Sir Blayse]

I like using scout squads. I prefer running the squads as two separate five man squads with ML, for 85 points a piece you get sniper shots and a good shot at insta-kill or anti-vehicle at a nice range. I rarely manage to get anyone pinned by them, but the rending is worth it.

 

If i only run one scout team, then I run Telion and use his skill to bolster the ML chance to hit. Normally they are just cheap, Dev-lite, scoring units for me.

 

I've wanted to experiment with running an assault squad or two in storms, but not sure if it would be worth it or not. I like the ability to move them in fast, but not sure how well they will hold up. For that group I'm thinking two or three shotguns, and the rest with bolt pistol/combat blade. The speeders will have MM's to deal with harder targets.

 

Tonight's game was a tie due to my scout squad. I was behind in a game of annihilation, my tactical's had taken a beating from termies and dreadnought. I had to kill off two squads to even it up, luckily my scouts had the range and rending to off his two tacticals. Both had two members left, but no chance of me getting into close combat with them. Interesting but rare, he never got a chance to assault any of my scouts. If he would have they would of folded like paper, but with cloaks they held on to their ground.

[spartan249]

The thing about sniper scouts that I like is that they're cheap. That they come with the option to be near invincible at long range is another plus. Add to that the fact that they don't require a transport for them to get where they need to go, and that they can scout move after infiltrating somewhere. With a range of 36" on their sniper rifles (which are free :)), they can sit on an objective and require your opponent to either play IG or get close to kill them, which then opens up trapping options. For 75~90 points, they don't do that badly as a bargain troops slot that frees up a ton of points to be spent elsewhere.