Can Eldar psykers cast powers when coming in from reserve?

[amberclad87]

I was wondering if eldar players can cast any of there psychic powers when they come in from reserve. Almost all there powers say that they are used at the beginning of the turn. Technically they are not even on the board at the beggining of the turn. Just want to know cause I have had players insist that they can cast there powers when coming in from reserve but I always question it. If there is an FAQ on it, could someone direct me there?

[BladeEncarmine]

Technically by RAW, no, the only powers a Farseer could use if he came on from reserve are Eldritch Storm and Mind War, both being used in the shooting phase.

 

Now, in friendly games, my gaming group (depending on how strictly they feel like playing it) sometimes will let me use powers after they come in from reserve, but that's just a house rule that I'm granted once every... oh 30 games with my Eldar.

[Mordekiem]

Technically by RAW, yes the farseer can use begining of turn powers on the turn they arrive from reserves.

 

The begining of the turn IS the begining of the movement phase. So reserves and psychic powers happen at the same time. Generally if two things happen at the same time you can choose which goes first. So you could choose to roll your reserves and have them move on then use your powers.

 

However, most tournies and other things rule that they can't. They say that begining of the turn happens before the begining of the movement phase. It is not supported by RAW, but it is supported by RAI. Since this is how the local tournies play it it is how I play it even if I disagree.

[stinkenheim]

Technically by RAW, yes the farseer can use begining of turn powers on the turn they arrive from reserves.

 

The begining of the turn IS the begining of the movement phase. So reserves and psychic powers happen at the same time. ]

 

No, that would be the beggining of the movement phase.

 

Look at Warptime, the Chaos power. Its cast at the beggining of the turn and it is in the FAQ that you cannot cast it if the model deepstrikes in. Deepstriking is a model coming in from reseres, regardless of the way it happens reserves enter play at the same time.

Reserves happen in the movement phase which is after the beggining o the turn.

So no, you can't use powers that are cast at the start o the turn if you have come in from reserves.

[SeattleDV8]

Technically by RAW, yes the farseer can use begining of turn powers on the turn they arrive from reserves.

Sorry that is not supported by RAW.

 

The begining of the turn IS the begining of the movement phase.

 

Correct

So reserves and psychic powers happen at the same time. Generally if two things happen at the same time you can choose which goes first. So you could choose to roll your reserves and have them move on then use your powers.

 

Incorrect, if you choose to move your reserves on the table first, you are no longer at the 'start' of the turn. as you have preformed an action.

If you wish to do your psychic powers first you are disallowed because you are off the table.

Even if you could prove that both happen at the same time, the unit would be off the table and as such could not use its psychic powers.

The timing will prevent you from casting psychic powers from units entering from reserves..

That is the reason that tournies disallow it.

[Mordekiem]

Look at Warptime, the Chaos power. Its cast at the beggining of the turn and it is in the FAQ that you cannot cast it if the model deepstrikes in.

Yeah, that sucks for chaos. However the chaos FAQ only effects the chaos codex. It has no bearing on the Eldar codex. If it did they would put the same information in the eldar codex.

 

 

 

(Mordekiem @ Jun 11 2010, 10:22 PM)

The begining of the turn IS the begining of the movement phase.

 

Correct

So we agree here, good. Because this is the key to my argument.

 

Incorrect, if you choose to move your reserves on the table first, you are no longer at the 'start' of the turn. as you have preformed an action.

If you wish to do your psychic powers first you are disallowed because you are off the table.

Even if you could prove that both happen at the same time, the unit would be off the table and as such could not use its psychic powers.

The timing will prevent you from casting psychic powers from units entering from reserves.

The problem with your logic emerges with Eldrad. Say he is on the table already. He can cast two powers, let's say doom and fortune. Both must be cast at the begining of the turn. Which do you cast first? Now, he also has a staff that allows him to cast a third power. It says he may cast a power he has already cast that turn. So he casts Doom again.

 

With your logic as soon as he casts one power he cannot cast anymore because he has taken an action.

 

The same logic would stop two different farseers from casting begining of turn powers as well.

 

So obviously performing one start of turn action does not preclude you from taking other start of turn actions.

 

Now we go to reserves and powers. We have established that they both occur at the same time (per your first quote above). I have shown that if you have multiple start of turn actions then you can do one and then do the next one.

 

Reserves take place at the start of the movement phase. You must roll reserves and then immediately move the units onto the board. Once all reserves have moved onto the board then you continue your movement phase. So moving reserves on happen in the begining of the movement phase.

 

There are no rules to determine which begining of turn action to take first so I think it is safe to say you can choose the order. So you can choose to do your reserves THEN cast your psychic powers.

 

I hope I explained it well. I will try to clear up anything if you need me to.

 

That is the reason that tournies disallow it.

No, I don't believe so. This is my belief.

 

In past editions GW has made it clear in the main rulebook that begining of turn actions take place before any other actions in the turn sequence. However, in their infinite wisdom, GW seems to have left this out of the 5th edition rulebook.

 

This was not intentional so now they are trying to deal with it by saying begining of turn things happen before begining of the movement phase actions. They have created FAQs that give precidents for this, but have never actually fixed the rulebook or added to the main FAQ. Since GW has let this be known that it was their intent the tournies are playing along with it.

 

In addition, this has been in the previous rulesets. So players automatically assume it applies to 5th edition. But the 5th edition rulebook does not state this. The new rules make the start of the movement phase the start of the turn.

 

So between GW giving hints about what they meant (but not coming out and saying it directly via FAQ) and players using rules from previous editions (that never happens! :( ) the general consensus among the tournies has been to disallow farseers to cast their powers the turn they are in reserve.

 

Not RAW, but pretty much adopted as such from those in power.

[Koremu]

You can't cast Fortune on the turn you come into play from Reserves. You're not on the board when the turn starts.

[Grey Mage]

You can't cast Fortune on the turn you come into play from Reserves. You're not on the board when the turn starts.

I believe the counter-argument is that in cases where you must be on the board theyre prone to telling you- example being teleport homers.

 

But yes, that is the common reading. I do find it interesting that you cannot take advantage of the order of things in this, though you can in shooting- for instance popping a transport and then mowing down the squad inside it before they can do anything about it.

[Mordekiem]

But yes, that is the common reading. I do find it interesting that you cannot take advantage of the order of things in this, though you can in shooting- for instance popping a transport and then mowing down the squad inside it before they can do anything about it.

Ah, but by RAW you can take advantage of the order. If you have more than one action that must be done at the begining of the turn then what is to stop you from choosing the order? There is no rule to determine this so common sense would dictate that you choose the order.

 

So with a farseer in reserves you do your reserves first then do the power.

[BladeEncarmine]

While you can manipulate the order of things in a sense by rolling for reserves before casting powers, the thing about reserves is that it is the reserves roll that's made at the beginning of the turn. The models that arrive from reserve are then moved onto the board at any given point in the movement phase... but clearly after "start of turn" actions. Or am I reading too much into things?

[Mordekiem]

While you can manipulate the order of things in a sense by rolling for reserves before casting powers, the thing about reserves is that it is the reserves roll that's made at the beginning of the turn. The models that arrive from reserve are then moved onto the board at any given point in the movement phase... but clearly after "start of turn" actions. Or am I reading too much into things?

You are incorrect. Reserves must move onto the board as soon as they are available.

 

In fact if you read the note on pg 94 it implies that reserve rolls take precedent over any other begining of turn rolls.

 

"you must roll reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available"

 

So to me you have two actions that go off at the same time (begining of turn). The closest rule we have for deciding which goes first is the note on pg 94. So if anything you should roll and move reserves on before using any powers.

[BladeEncarmine]

Heh, serves me right for posting without checking the rules.

 

That being said, wouldn't the actual act of moving reserves onto the field constitute movement?

 

Or perhaps another perspective... since Farseers must use their powers at the beginning of the turn, which is generally before they move, is it possible that any movement would disallow use of the supportive Farseer powers the way it would disallow use of a heavy weapon? (now I KNOW I'm reading too much into things)

[Grey Mage]

Heh, serves me right for posting without checking the rules.

 

That being said, wouldn't the actual act of moving reserves onto the field constitute movement?

 

Or perhaps another perspective... since Farseers must use their powers at the beginning of the turn, which is generally before they move, is it possible that any movement would disallow use of the supportive Farseer powers the way it would disallow use of a heavy weapon? (now I KNOW I'm reading too much into things)

By your reasoning, if the eldar player brought in any reserves they wouldnt be able to cast any of their supportive powers even if they were on the table at the start of the turn- because a reserve deployment would have happened before hand.

[BladeEncarmine]

:cuss Yep... now I know I shouldn't post in the OR forums if I've been awake for 50 hours.

 

Ignore me please :D .

[Grey Mage]

Dont worry, Ive made that mistake myself.

[CuznP]

I disagree that the Beginning of the turn and the beginning of the Movement Phase is the same thing as on Page 9 it clearly states what you can do in your movement phase. By some o' you folks' argument casting spells at the beginning of turn occurs in the movement phase but in the list of things that can happen in the movement phase, casting spells is not included and unless the rule of the spell specifies that it works in the movement phase, I don't think it can happen.

 

Now, rolling for reserves happens at the beginning of the movement phase (p 94), not at the beginning of the turn. So beginning of turn stuff happens first, then reserve rolls.

[SeattleDV8]

Turn to page 9

There you will see 'The Turn Sequence'

Under this you will see three sections; The Movement Phase , The Shooting Phase and The Assault Phase.

What do we not see? The start of turn phase.

The start of the turn is the beginning of the Movement phase.

[CuznP]

The start of the turn is the beginning of the Movement phase.

 

Fair enough. But once anything occurs in the movement phase you are no longer at the beginning of the turn, nor are you at the beginning of the movement phase you are well within the movement phase. Moving in and of itself is something that occurs during the movent phase as listed on Page 9, so if a model moves in the movement phase it can no longer be the start of the turn, it must now be within the movement phase. This being the case, a model coming on from reserve does so during the movement phase and thusly the beginning of turn has now passed and that model cannot cast a spell that could have been casted at the beginning of the turn.

[Grey Mage]

The start of the turn is the beginning of the Movement phase.

 

Fair enough. But once anything occurs in the movement phase you are no longer at the beginning of the turn, nor are you at the beginning of the movement phase you are well within the movement phase. Moving in and of itself is something that occurs during the movent phase as listed on Page 9, so if a model moves in the movement phase it can no longer be the start of the turn, it must now be within the movement phase. This being the case, a model coming on from reserve does so during the movement phase and thusly the beginning of turn has now passed and that model cannot cast a spell that could have been casted at the beginning of the turn.

Except, by that logic, neither could any other model whos powers needed to be cast at the begining of the turn. Thus, an eldar player would have to either roll for reserves OR cast psychic powers- and rolling for reserves is not optional.

 

This cannot be correct.

[CuznP]

The start of the turn is the beginning of the Movement phase.

 

Fair enough. But once anything occurs in the movement phase you are no longer at the beginning of the turn, nor are you at the beginning of the movement phase you are well within the movement phase. Moving in and of itself is something that occurs during the movent phase as listed on Page 9, so if a model moves in the movement phase it can no longer be the start of the turn, it must now be within the movement phase. This being the case, a model coming on from reserve does so during the movement phase and thusly the beginning of turn has now passed and that model cannot cast a spell that could have been casted at the beginning of the turn.

Except, by that logic, neither could any other model whos powers needed to be cast at the begining of the turn. Thus, an eldar player would have to either roll for reserves OR cast psychic powers- and rolling for reserves is not optional.

 

This cannot be correct.

 

I don't see the problem here. It says in the reserves rules that you roll for reserves at the beginning of the movement phase. It doesn't say that you roll for reserves at the beginning of the turn. So you must complete all At the Beginning of Turn stuff first, then roll for reserves and resolve them appropriately in the movement phase, then move your other units as normal.

 

Regardless, things in reserve are unable to use powers that are to be used at the beginning of the turn.

[Arnil]

It does say, " Beginning of movement phase." So the real question is, "Is the beginning of the movement phase the same as the beginning of the turn?" I am inclined to think no, but I can see a valid argument that the turn is split into three equal part thus the beginning of the movement phase is the same as the beginning of the turn.

[Mordekiem]

It does say, " Beginning of movement phase." So the real question is, "Is the beginning of the movement phase the same as the beginning of the turn?" I am inclined to think no, but I can see a valid argument that the turn is split into three equal part thus the beginning of the movement phase is the same as the beginning of the turn.

Pg 9 of the rulebook disagrees with you. The first thing you do on your turn is start the movement phase. It even has a big "1" next to it. Nothing happens before the movement phase except for your opponents assault phase.

 

assuming you go second a game turn would go like this.

 

opponents movement phase

opponents Shooting phase

Opponents Assaultphase

Your movement phase (which starts your player turn)

your shooting phase

your assault phase

 

Notice there is no phase between your enemies assault phase and your movement phase.

 

Regardless, things in reserve are unable to use powers that are to be used at the beginning of the turn.

Based on what rules?

 

I have truely looked for anything that indicates there is a phase before the movement phase and cannot locate it. I have looked for anything that indicates there is a way to deal with multiple actions that occur at the same time, but must be rolled seperately and cannot find it.

 

Given the lack of a rules we can only assume that the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase is the same point in time. And the only logical way to determine which action happens first is to let the player doing the actions choose. It is how moving units, shooting units and asaulting units works.

 

If you have better ideas of how to address these issues within the context of the rules I would be happy to hear it.

[CuznP]

Ok, so the beginning of the movement phase is the beginning of the turn. I don't agree, but whatever. Regardless, it doesn't make a difference because as soon as you do something in the movement phase that is one of the possible actions listed as part of the Movement Phase as per the little box describing each phases activities on page 9, you are no longer at the beginning of the movement phase, you are well within the movement phase. Anything that is not part of those activities is not a part of the movement phase (such as powers) so it happens in that start of the movement phase time, as that is the beginning of the turn, and as they are not a part of the movement phase you have not yet moved into the movement phase.

 

Now with reserves, the only thing that happens at the start of the movement phase is the rolling for the reserves. Once you start moving them on you are in the movement phase.

 

So still, Casting powers precedes the arrival of reserves and therefore psychers cannot cast their start of turn powers when coming on from reserve.

[Grey Mage]

Ok, so the beginning of the movement phase is the beginning of the turn. I don't agree, but whatever. Regardless, it doesn't make a difference because as soon as you do something in the movement phase that is one of the possible actions listed as part of the Movement Phase as per the little box describing each phases activities on page 9, you are no longer at the beginning of the movement phase, you are well within the movement phase. Anything that is not part of those activities is not a part of the movement phase (such as powers) so it happens in that start of the movement phase time, as that is the beginning of the turn, and as they are not a part of the movement phase you have not yet moved into the movement phase.

 

Now with reserves, the only thing that happens at the start of the movement phase is the rolling for the reserves. Once you start moving them on you are in the movement phase.

 

So still, Casting powers precedes the arrival of reserves and therefore psychers cannot cast their start of turn powers when coming on from reserve.

No, you need to roll for them all and then deploy them all, as per pg. 94.

 

The only real counter to all this is we can find a difference between the "begining of the movement phase" and "the start of the turn".

[CuznP]

No, you need to roll for them all and then deploy them all, as per pg. 94.

 

My bad, that is certainly the case, but then then the very next sentence says "The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal." p. 94.

 

So after you deploy you move the rest of your troops, which puts you into the movement phase, no longer at the beginning of the turn, therefore you still can't use your Beginning of Turn powers after reserves arrive.