Can Eldar psykers cast powers when coming in from reserve?

[Grey Mage]

No, you need to roll for them all and then deploy them all, as per pg. 94.

 

My bad, that is certainly the case, but then then the very next sentence says "The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal." p. 94.

 

So after you deploy you move the rest of your troops, which puts you into the movement phase, no longer at the beginning of the turn, therefore you still can't use your Beginning of Turn powers after reserves arrive.

Not at all, because you "may" then proceed with the game.

 

If you have other things, such as say, psychic powers, that must be done before the move theyre not invalidated by the requirement of reserves.

[CuznP]

Not at all, because you "may" then proceed with the game.

 

That is not so, it in fact says that you may proceed to move your other units as normal. (p 94) Now, "as normal" indicates that we are now at a point where it would be normal move your models, which is within the movement phase (no longer at its beginning)

 

Furthermore, the "may" is there to indicate that it is not compulsory to move your other units in the movement phase but you may choose to, "as normal."

 

If you have other things, such as say, psychic powers, that must be done before the move theyre not invalidated by the requirement of reserves.

 

I fear that that is also incorrect because on P. 94 it gives clear indication where the reserve roll is to be made "At the start of each movement phase except the first, before moving any unit"

 

it then goes on to say that after the reserve rolls are met you may proceed to move your other units as normal. (as I have pointed out above)

 

Reserves is the thing you do before moving your units. When you roll bring your troops on it effectively becomes the movement phase. This being the case, you cannot cast powers as you are now in the movement phase and no longer at the beginning of the turn.

[Grey Mage]

Not at all, because you "may" then proceed with the game.

 

That is not so, it in fact says that you may proceed to move your other units as normal. (p 94) Now, "as normal" indicates that we are now at a point where it would be normal move your models, which is within the movement phase (no longer at its beginning)

 

Furthermore, the "may" is there to indicate that it is not compulsory to move your other units in the movement phase but you may choose to, "as normal."

Its also "normal" to use those psychic powers before moving at the start of the turn. You "may" proceed to move your other units as normal allows for other actions than moving your units as per normal- such as the casting of these powers. As long as its all done before normal movement you should be ok.

 

 

If you have other things, such as say, psychic powers, that must be done before the move theyre not invalidated by the requirement of reserves.

 

I fear that that is also incorrect because on P. 94 it gives clear indication where the reserve roll is to be made "At the start of each movement phase except the first, before moving any unit"

 

it then goes on to say that after the reserve rolls are met you may proceed to move your other units as normal. (as I have pointed out above)

 

Reserves is the thing you do before moving your units. When you roll bring your troops on it effectively becomes the movement phase. This being the case, you cannot cast powers as you are now in the movement phase and no longer at the beginning of the turn.

There is no begining of the turn phase Im afraid- your already in the movement phase when you cast those psychic powers reserves or no. Your already in the movement phase when you roll reserves for that matter.

 

You seem to be laboring under the idea that there is a begining of the turn phase, there isnt.

[Arnil]

The word "'may" gives the opening for this rule to apply....the chaos dex specifies that they can't use psychic power the turn they come on maybe because GW knew that thier rules allow of powers tone done the turn one comes on....

 

 

Roll of reserves,

Reserves come on,

Begining of turn options,

Movement phase commences.

 

The first three steps are all in the beginning of the turn.

 

One could play them differently but they all must happen before the normal movement. This is the alleged "Begining of the turn" phase we all seek for! In my books eldar are the master psykers of the universe right? It make sence that they get the cool advantageous psyker rules!

[CuznP]

There is no point in arguing with people intent on believing only what they want to so I am done. I feel that I have made a strong case based on RAW and RAI and quite frankly I think it is incorrect to cast Beginning of Turn powers after you are well into the movement phase.

[Sparhawk]

Can we agree that a unit would need to cast Doom or Fortune before it moves? I would posit that it is the act of moving that precludes the reserved unit from using its powers and not the fact that it is coming in from reserves. This would not preclude other units already on the board as they have yet to make any moves, however if any unit that started on the board moved I would disallow the casting of the "beginning of turn powers".

[Grey Mage]

I would certainly agree with that sparhawk.

[Arnil]

That is certainly how I read these rules as.

[Mordekiem]

Can we agree that a unit would need to cast Doom or Fortune before it moves? I would posit that it is the act of moving that precludes the reserved unit from using its powers and not the fact that it is coming in from reserves. This would not preclude other units already on the board as they have yet to make any moves, however if any unit that started on the board moved I would disallow the casting of the "beginning of turn powers".

This is clear as mud. :huh:

 

I would say that once you have began to start your normal movement it is too late to cast powers. However, reserves movement is required movement that takes place at the begining of the turn When you have two actions that occur simultaneously I think common sense says to choose which occurs first.

[CuznP]

I thought I was done but apparently not.

 

When you have two actions that occur simultaneously I think common sense says to choose which occurs first.

 

And I would normally agree with this except in dealing with reserves because it specifies when it should happen. "At the start of each movement phase except the first, before moving any unit" (p 94.) It happens before moving any unit, not before resolving other things that might be able to happen and then movement.

 

All the beginning of turn stuff can happen in any order because it is not specified but it is clearly specified when reserves happen.

 

And furthermore I don't agree that The Start of Turn and Start of the movement phase are the same thing. And no, I am not claiming that there is a Start of Turn Phase. On Page 9 there is a whole section on Turn Sequence Exceptions. I believe that Start of Turn actions are Exceptions to the Turn Sequence and therefore happen before the Movement Phase as it clearly states what can happen in the movement phase (p. 9 and p. 94), and Start of Turn Actions are not one of those things so they must occur outside of the standard Turn Sequence and therefore must happen before the movement phase in its entirety, including reserves.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, but it doesnt say that you have to roll and deploy reserves immediately before moving any unit, just previously to it.

 

Example: You must get groceries before you cook dinner, but you can go get your groceries and then watch tv before you cook dinner.

 

Turn Sequences refers to things that are done in an opponents turn and misc. events- not to optional actions taken by the player during their own turn.

[Sparhawk]

Can we agree that a unit would need to cast Doom or Fortune before it moves? I would posit that it is the act of moving that precludes the reserved unit from using its powers and not the fact that it is coming in from reserves. This would not preclude other units already on the board as they have yet to make any moves, however if any unit that started on the board moved I would disallow the casting of the "beginning of turn powers".

This is clear as mud. ;)

 

I would say that once you have began to start your normal movement it is too late to cast powers. However, reserves movement is required movement that takes place at the begining of the turn When you have two actions that occur simultaneously I think common sense says to choose which occurs first.

 

Which puts it just about on par with the rest of the rulebooks then ;).

 

Basicly I was saying that the units coming in from reserve couldn't use the power because they've already completed their move but units on the table could use their powers as long as no one but the reserves moved.

 

Man a couple more explanations and I'll be qualified to write the new codex :D

[DevianID]

I never got the whole 'Start of movement is start of turn' nonsense. Your opponent declares his turn is over. Your turn starts. Your first phase in your turn is the movement phase. However, before you begin your movement phase, out of phase actions can still occur--like Eldar Psychic powers. Not all actions happen in one of the 3 phases. There are out of phase actions, there are rules for them in the rulebook.

 

Consider other 'start of phase' or 'start of game' effects. You, by making the start of a turn equal the start of the phase, have chained two separate events together instead of flowing from one to the next. By your logic, the enemies end of the assault phase is the end of his turn is the start of your turn is the start of your movement phase. They are all sequentially connected, and perhaps most of the time there is no actual delay from one to the next because no actions occur between them, but they are separate events.

 

You don't roll for Eldar Psychic powers at the end of the enemies assault phase, nor do you roll them at the end of their turn, nor do you roll them at the beginning of your movement phase. The rules make a distinction there--beginning of your turn. Many here are choosing to ignore this distinction, chaining two separate but sequential events together, and then reversing the order of them. I hate to point out the obvious, but ignoring rules is wrong. There are actions that occur out of the 3 phases of a turn, and thus the phases are defined and events that are not phase-dependent are defined.

[Arnil]

Seems logical to me. I'm going with devianID on this one....and I was rooting for you eldar too!

[Mordekiem]

I never got the whole 'Start of movement is start of turn' nonsense. Your opponent declares his turn is over. Your turn starts. Your first phase in your turn is the movement phase. However, before you begin your movement phase, out of phase actions can still occur--like Eldar Psychic powers. Not all actions happen in one of the 3 phases. There are out of phase actions, there are rules for them in the rulebook.

 

Consider other 'start of phase' or 'start of game' effects. You, by making the start of a turn equal the start of the phase, have chained two separate events together instead of flowing from one to the next. By your logic, the enemies end of the assault phase is the end of his turn is the start of your turn is the start of your movement phase. They are all sequentially connected, and perhaps most of the time there is no actual delay from one to the next because no actions occur between them, but they are separate events.

 

You don't roll for Eldar Psychic powers at the end of the enemies assault phase, nor do you roll them at the end of their turn, nor do you roll them at the beginning of your movement phase. The rules make a distinction there--beginning of your turn. Many here are choosing to ignore this distinction, chaining two separate but sequential events together, and then reversing the order of them. I hate to point out the obvious, but ignoring rules is wrong. There are actions that occur out of the 3 phases of a turn, and thus the phases are defined and events that are not phase-dependent are defined.

Wow, that is beautiful story. It brought a tear to my eye. B)

 

Now, what rules are you basing this on? Because without any rules it is just a story. I have yet to find any rule in either the BRB or the Eldar codex that indicates there is a hidden begining of turn phase.

 

Basicly I was saying that the units coming in from reserve couldn't use the power because they've already completed their move but units on the table could use their powers as long as no one but the reserves moved.

I will ask you the same thing I asked DevianID. What rules are you basing this theory on?

[Arnil]

Someone else can quote it on page94 of the little rule book. Units coming in from reserve move on from the edge of the table acting as if they had been right on the edge of the table last turn. That means their movement phase is done for them after you place them, no matter how far you move, thus powers can't be used for them the aree before the movement. If it was on the board already you wouldn't move it then Do your begining of turn move right? Well coming in from reserves IS a movement as per the rule book so I am very sorry but it can't use the power...

[Grey Mage]

He basing it on turn interuptions- wich states that your opponent may have to do something in your turn, or that an "event" may occur.

 

I dont think casting his powers is really an event for the farseer.

[thade]

This might be the ancient Magic player in me, but that idea where things could happen between phases and literally before they happened has always stuck with me. I think that's why when this issue came up at our club I didn't balk at the idea that the Eldar casters couldn't do anything when coming in from reserves, as their Beginning of Turn powers weren't any use when on the table. Magic did have a much, much clearer rule set though. ;) As RAW stands, I think the consensus is clear: no start-of-turn powers for a Farseer the turn it comes in from reserves.

 

That said, in any friendly game I have and will continue to allow it...even though Doom and Fortune annoy the crap out of me.

[Mordekiem]

Someone else can quote it on page94 of the little rule book. Units coming in from reserve move on from the edge of the table acting as if they had been right on the edge of the table last turn. That means their movement phase is done for them after you place them, no matter how far you move, thus powers can't be used for them the aree before the movement. If it was on the board already you wouldn't move it then Do your begining of turn move right? Well coming in from reserves IS a movement as per the rule book so I am very sorry but it can't use the power...

The movement phase applies to your entire turn. It does not apply to individual models. Once a model has moved it is still its movement phase, it just cannot move any further.

 

All pg 94 says is that you roll and move all your reserves before moving on with the rest of your movement phase. I don't see any rules where it says the models that moved on from reserves cannot do anything else.

 

Pg 94 also says that you must roll for reserves and move the units on as soon as possible. Nothing stops those models from taking other actions that they are allowed.

 

As RAW stands, I think the consensus is clear: no start-of-turn powers for a Farseer the turn it comes in from reserves.

Based on what Rules? The rules of magic?

 

The consensus I am seeing is that people have some theories about how they think it should work, but noone has given any actual rules to back it up. The reason you can't give any rules to stop the farseer from moving on and then casting a power is because there are none to stop him.

 

That's not RAW.

[Sparhawk]

Basicly I was saying that the units coming in from reserve couldn't use the power because they've already completed their move but units on the table could use their powers as long as no one but the reserves moved.

I will ask you the same thing I asked DevianID. What rules are you basing this theory on?

 

I was summing up how I agreed with you previous post broseph. I've never had someone argue with me when I'm agreeing with them before... :)

 

Edit: Quick note on your above post: As we enjoy bandying around that this is a "permissive ruleset" isn't the base assumption that they can't use the start of turn powers after moving in from reserves the default? The onus is on someone to prove that they can do something not on proving that they can't.

[stinkenheim]

i refer you to the majority of FAQs where they ban the use of 'begining of turn' powers on units entering via deepstrike (which is a form of reserves). Although as you say it has no bearing on codexes other than the ones they were writen for it seems a pretty good indication that GW do not intend powers to be used in such a way.

[Mordekiem]

I was summing up how I agreed with you previous post broseph. I've never had someone argue with me when I'm agreeing with them before... :P

You are misunderstanding my argument then. I believe, by RAW, a farseer can be in reserve and then come onto the table and then cast a power. How I understand your post you disagree with that.

 

i refer you to the majority of FAQs where they ban the use of 'begining of turn' powers on units entering via deepstrike (which is a form of reserves). Although as you say it has no bearing on codexes other than the ones they were writen for it seems a pretty good indication that GW do not intend powers to be used in such a way

If you read my previous posts you will notice that I agree that RAW and RAI are different. However, with zero rules saying otherwise RAW is probably the best way to play it. GW could easily have addressed this with the Eldar FAQ, but chose not to.

[JamesI]

I was summing up how I agreed with you previous post broseph. I've never had someone argue with me when I'm agreeing with them before... ;)

You are misunderstanding my argument then. I believe, by RAW, a farseer can be in reserve and then come onto the table and then cast a power. How I understand your post you disagree with that.

 

i refer you to the majority of FAQs where they ban the use of 'begining of turn' powers on units entering via deepstrike (which is a form of reserves). Although as you say it has no bearing on codexes other than the ones they were writen for it seems a pretty good indication that GW do not intend powers to be used in such a way

If you read my previous posts you will notice that I agree that RAW and RAI are different. However, with zero rules saying otherwise RAW is probably the best way to play it. GW could easily have addressed this with the Eldar FAQ, but chose not to.

With how many times it comes up, this should just be in the main rulebook FAQ so it doesn't have to be in every single codex FAQ.