Retalitus Posted June 11, 2010 Share Posted June 11, 2010 Firstly, for those of you who haven't picked up the Battle Missions book, I highly recommend it - some really cool missions in there! And one of them I'll be playing next week, hence this topic... I've got a x3 way (potentially x4 way) game coming up, playing the "Clash of Heroes" mission at the 1500 points level. Without going into too much detail, this game is all about having named characters battling it out... the principle rule is that you have to pick a named HQ (rather than a generic HQ), and this unit can only be killed by your opponents named HQ, and vice versa.... The game itself is going to be played in a cityscape, so lots of terrain and cover around. Was initially thinking of running a CSM army with Kharne, but his lack of the Eternal Champ rule worried me. With the exception of Abbadon, I'm not all that impressed with the other CSM named characters, so I've opted to run with Daemons for this game... the question is, who do I take? And what kind of list do I formulate around them, bearing in mind the force org chart is a little skewed (you can pick plenty of troops and elites, but only a single heavy support choice. you can pick another HQ though)? Thinking of my options... Skarbrand was first in mind... however, I know I'll be up against a C'Tan in this game (Nightbringer, I'm sure), and giving him rerolls concerns me a lot... Fateweaver's stats aren't great, and to be honest, I'm not sure I'll get the full benefit of him in a game like this. The Masque and the Blue Scribes are no-gos in my book, as I just don't think either of them are strong enough. So, that leaves me with Skulltaker or Kugath... I've run Skulltaker a few times, and I always enjoy playing him... but I'm not sure he's going to be tough enough to face down what I'll be up against... As for Kugath... never played him before, but there are some things I like about him for this game. Firstly, lots of wounds... secondly, the ability to deal out potentially significant damage at range. Also, having defensive grenades is really going to help with all the cover on the board. Would love to get everyone's opinions on this before I finalise a list. What would YOU play in this game? What Daemon named HQ is going to be the most effective? Or should I bin the idea, and consider running a CSM list with Abbadon?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locmac Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 This is what'd I would do if the whole point is to kill the C'Tan. Use Skulltaker taker so you have a better chance of getting that final would in because he rends on 4+ and can easily get into combat. Before you throw him at whatever star god you fight, have a tricked out nurgle prince smack down the C'Tan and take down all but that last wound. Just my two cents :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2432107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ail'Slath'Sleresh Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 I got a better idea... Let the 3rd and 4th players deal with the c'tan and you play the roll of the cleaner and mop up the remains... No chaos gd or hero stands a chance against a c'tan withot nearly dying in on charge by one. If it's the nightbriger he'll just use his ability to knock any unit 6" range of him 2d6" away which he will do all day. Fateweaver might be a good choice with a nurgle dp or tzeentch dp counterpart with lots of troops. What else will you be facing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2432112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retalitus Posted June 12, 2010 Author Share Posted June 12, 2010 It's difficult to know what other heroes I'll be up against... pretty certain they'll be an Eldar force there though, although chances are the player won't be fielding Eldrad, but rather the character that ignores the Eternal Champ rule (the name of the character eludes me however). As for the 4th player... well, it's either going to be a Space Marine hero (from C:SM) or a 'Nid... I'm most certainly going to try and avoid the C'Tan until it's had a few wounds knocked off it. few games ago I charged Nightbringer with a couple of Daemon Princes (CSM, one Nurgle, one Tzeentch) and ended up on the losing side... that was painful... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2432292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Crusader Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 Nightbringer has 4 initiative, 6 weapon skill (for the WS i am not 100%) and he is not an eternal warrior... Skulltaker can kill him really easy espesially if he is on a juggernaut with the extra attack. Think about it, on the charge 6 attacks hit on 3+ wound of 4+, he gets a 4++ and has only one wound since he gets chopped!!! it would be quite fun seeing the c'tan getting insta deathed in a clash of heroes setting. :wink: Skulltaker has another great advantage against most other killer characters out there. He only costs 175 with the beast. Basically every eternal warrior who can actually kill something is more expencive and in clash of heroes you subtract the point cost of your hero from his total kills. In the and of the game if two or more heroes still live Skulltaker has an advantage in the total points because he costs less. :verymad: I played clash of heroes against an ultra marine player who had Sicarius. I couldn't kill him because Skulltaker couldn't get to him but i won with the total points. I killed more points than he did and also had a 25 points heads up because Sicarius cost 200 points. As for the rest of the list i would put some bloodcrushers with wargears for wound allocation with Skulltaker. Then fill in the Elite slots as best as possible. And for troops lots of scary bloodletters. Hope that was helpful :pirate: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2432581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 Take the Slaanesh Daemon lord.... No armour or invulnerable saves for you! (aka whoever you fight)... you will very likely go first and even against things like C'tan you have enough attacks (wounding on a 4+) to take him down especially if it has already been wounded... the key is not to let them get stuck into other units that can't kill them while you want your special character to get stuck into units that can't kill them... especially after the other special characters have died. The main reason I argue this however is.... because Daemon lords look really cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2432582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locmac Posted June 13, 2010 Share Posted June 13, 2010 Take the Slaanesh Daemon lord.... No armour or invulnerable saves for you! (aka whoever you fight)... you will very likely go first and even against things like C'tan you have enough attacks (wounding on a 4+) to take him down especially if it has already been wounded... the key is not to let them get stuck into other units that can't kill them while you want your special character to get stuck into units that can't kill them... especially after the other special characters have died. The main reason I argue this however is.... because Daemon lords look really cool. He'd still get the +4 inv save, and C'tans aren't immune to instant death?! I have some talking to do with my necron friend... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2433015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Crusader Posted June 13, 2010 Share Posted June 13, 2010 and C'tans aren't immune to instant death?! I have some talking to do with my necron friend... The codex is quite old and back then there weren't that many insta deaths except for double strenght so no eternal warrior or anything like that for C'tans. Make sure to remind your friend that skulltakers insta death has nothing to do with toughness (even if you have 8!!!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2433276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retalitus Posted June 13, 2010 Author Share Posted June 13, 2010 Take the Slaanesh Daemon lord.... No armour or invulnerable saves for you! (aka whoever you fight)... you will very likely go first and even against things like C'tan you have enough attacks (wounding on a 4+) to take him down especially if it has already been wounded... the key is not to let them get stuck into other units that can't kill them while you want your special character to get stuck into units that can't kill them... especially after the other special characters have died. The main reason I argue this however is.... because Daemon lords look really cool. I take it you are referring to the Keeper of Secrets? If so, I'll certainly look at adding one of these into the list, as I am permitted to use an additional HQ slot. Such a shame there isn't a named KoS in the codex, like there is for all the other Greater Daemons... So, it's looking like Skulltaker is getting the most votes so far, and I can see that throwing him onto a juggernaut and into a unit of Bloodcrushers it going to help him survive and hopefully get into combat without taking too much damage beforehand. In terms of my other available slots, what do you folks think I should look to add in as a heavy-support choice? My initial thought was a Soul Grinder, but as the terrain is going to be heavy in this game, I'm a little concerned about deep-strike mishaps with a model this large. So, perhaps a Daemon Prince is the way to go? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2433344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locmac Posted June 13, 2010 Share Posted June 13, 2010 In terms of my other available slots, what do you folks think I should look to add in as a heavy-support choice? My initial thought was a Soul Grinder, but as the terrain is going to be heavy in this game, I'm a little concerned about deep-strike mishaps with a model this large. So, perhaps a Daemon Prince is the way to go? If you have the points, a max out nurgle prince with cloud of flies, noxious touch, unholy might, and iron hide is a pretty solid smack down on anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2433400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Crusader Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 I take it you are referring to the Keeper of Secrets? If so, I'll certainly look at adding one of these into the list, as I am permitted to use an additional HQ slot. You can't have an additional Greater daemon only herald. And the mission alows only one HQ slot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2434276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Guys, he was referring to the Gargantuan Creature Slaaneshi Daemon Lord, which you can't use in normal games anyway. EDIT: Well, you can, but only with the opponent's consent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2434362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Skulltaker, hands down. 5 attacks, 3 hit, 2 rend, 1 failed save and it's dead before it even strikes. Rough statistics ftw! All 50% odds for the dice should theoretically land in your favor...but then again, maybe not... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2434904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retalitus Posted June 14, 2010 Author Share Posted June 14, 2010 You can't have an additional Greater daemon only herald. And the mission alows only one HQ slot. In actual fact, for this mission, the rules do state that you are able to take an extra HQ - although it must not be a named HQ. Anyway, it's all beside the point... I played the game this evening, and I did indeed opt for Skulltaker as the majority have suggested. Ended up as a three way game, with the other two HQs being Nightbringer (bah!) and Morgan Ra, the shooty Eldar HQ. Suffice to say, thanks to my obligatory appalling rolls for scatter, it went absolutely terribly for me and - for the first time in ages - I was tabled. Too tired to do a full battle report right now, but I'll make a few points... I hate Eldar! Hate them! Sadly, Skulltaker (on a Juggernaut) and his cohort of Bloodcrushers scattered badly. Right in front of a load of Dire Avengers. Once they'd blade-stormed, the unit got assaulted by a whole load of Harlequins, who tore my unit up badly. Not even the intervention of a Bloodthirster (the only Daemon unit that managed to scatter close enough to assist) made any difference, and he was finished off in no time, before the Harelquins jumped out of combat allowing the Eldar HQ to take Skulltaker's last wound from distance. Unfortunately, the rest of my units (a couple of large units of 'Letters, some flesh hounds led by Karanak, and a Khornate Daemon Prince) fared little better. Sadly, despite my intentions, they all dropped within range of the Necrons... a unit of Pariahs, backed up by the Nightbringer, demolished them totally. After several games of terrible rolls for Daemonic deployment and deep-striking, I think I'm going to give my Daemons a rest for a few games, and head back to their slightly more predictable mortal counterparts from the CSM codex! Clearly I've done something to annoy Khorne recently! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2435063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ail'Slath'Sleresh Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Nightbringer has 4 initiative, 6 weapon skill (for the WS i am not 100%) and he is not an eternal warrior... Skulltaker can kill him really easy espesially if he is on a juggernaut with the extra attack.Think about it, on the charge 6 attacks hit on 3+ wound of 4+, he gets a 4++ and has only one wound since he gets chopped!!! it would be quite fun seeing the c'tan getting insta deathed in a clash of heroes setting. ;) Skulltaker has another great advantage against most other killer characters out there. He only costs 175 with the beast. Basically every eternal warrior who can actually kill something is more expencive and in clash of heroes you subtract the point cost of your hero from his total kills. In the and of the game if two or more heroes still live Skulltaker has an advantage in the total points because he costs less. ^_^ I played clash of heroes against an ultra marine player who had Sicarius. I couldn't kill him because Skulltaker couldn't get to him but i won with the total points. I killed more points than he did and also had a 25 points heads up because Sicarius cost 200 points. As for the rest of the list i would put some bloodcrushers with wargears for wound allocation with Skulltaker. Then fill in the Elite slots as best as possible. And for troops lots of scary bloodletters. Hope that was helpful :) EDIT Skulltaker has a chance but I wouldn't count it as a victory until he gets into combat with a C'tan and wins lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2435100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Crusader Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 Too bad you lost that one, from what you said there is nothing you could have done with such dice rolls. Well for some reason i also have a great trouble with my dice rolls when playing daemons, maybe it is because my first army is loyalists... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2435445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ail'Slath'Sleresh Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 I don't think you should put the daemons aside. I dropped my orks knowing that daemons were tough but I loved the possibilities and now I have the army on lock... I barely even play and get games in once every 3-6 months but my love for the army has made me increase it to over 7.3k in points and even more so I haven't forgotten my strategies! Keep going with this army it is a sure win! The people that post here saying it is broken don't really know what the daemon army is capable of or haven't played a very good player yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2435892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retalitus Posted June 15, 2010 Author Share Posted June 15, 2010 I do enjoy playing Daemons, and I'm certainly not giving them up permanently! Been playing them successfully for awhile now, and have had some very satisfying and comprehensive victories with them! Still, it can be frustrating to see appalling rolling in recent games for deep-striking screwing up all my plans! The chaotic nature of Daemons is, in some respect, part of their appeal, but I think I need a break from them for a few games! I certainly don't subscribe to the notion that the Daemon codex is broken. Far from it. In many respects, I think there are a lot more competitive choices one can take with this codex than with Chaos Marines, where you're limited to a handful of strongly competitive army builds. The issue is the randomness, which can totally devastate even the best laid plans! In this game, the poor scatter roll for Skulltaker essentially lost me the game on the very first turn... not wanting to make too many excuses, of course! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2435950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyson_Vore Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Well, if you want to be really cruel and take it Khorne, you could ask if you could use Angrath or Uraka Warfiend from IA:VII Or Mamon from the same Book if you Field Nurgle. Poisoned Template with Nurgle goodness? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2437074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofblood Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 I don't think Skarbrand would be that bad of a choice vs either C'tan(if he manages to get into combat). Vs the Nightbringer, Skarbrand has a 10 WS vs 6 meaning the NB is hitting on 5s. If Skar gets the charge he is wounding on 3s with S9 and goes first with 6(7?) attacks. With if I remember correctly rerolls to wound and hit. Kairos I don't see as being a good option as his reroll invuln saves is negated vs the C'tans ability to.. well ignore invuln saves. My vote goes to Skarbrand who to me has a higher potential to kill in the first round of combat before the C'tan has a chance to fight back, but if you don't kill him, may die in return. Would be an epic fight regardless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2446031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 I don't think Skarbrand would be that bad of a choice vs either C'tan(if he manages to get into combat). Vs the Nightbringer, Skarbrand has a 10 WS vs 6 meaning the NB is hitting on 5s. If Skar gets the charge he is wounding on 3s with S9 and goes first with 6(7?) attacks. With if I remember correctly rerolls to wound and hit. Kairos I don't see as being a good option as his reroll invuln saves is negated vs the C'tans ability to.. well ignore invuln saves. My vote goes to Skarbrand who to me has a higher potential to kill in the first round of combat before the C'tan has a chance to fight back, but if you don't kill him, may die in return. Would be an epic fight regardless. You need to read the rules, my friend... Not only that, but... Uhh... Even with 7 attacks (I'm not sure if he has that many) and hitting/wounding with all of them, chances are you won't kill the Nightbringer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2446084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzkreig Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 An'ggrath the Unbound. Do it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203979-clash-of-heroes-and-daemons/#findComment-2466822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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