Mech lists and armour support

[Gothical]

I'm trying (and failing) to build a 2000pt Salamander army list, mostly because I'm insisting on it being a Mech force, and also because I've just finished reading Salamander...

 

One of the things that has cropped up is that, in order to fit in units I like fielding, such as Devastators, Vanguard/Assault Marines and a Land Raider Redeemer + THSS I simply cannot afford any armoured tanks.

 

In previous editions I had relied on a couple of Predators and a couple of Land Speeders to distract the enemy anti-tank firepower whilst the rhinos in the force closed with the enemy. However with this new list I am considering, all there is are the Rhinos, a few Razorbacks and Land Raider (and no Raider at 1500 points!).

 

Do you feel that armoured support is a necessity to draw fire away from the humble Rhino, or can shoving 7 or 8 AV11 targets straight down the enemy throat work without the tougher Predators and so forth sitting around?

[kongnico]

I think it will work just fine, hide some of the rhinos behind the raider and be sure to tell everyone how dangerous that raider is. Maybe make that raider a redeemer, as that will surely scare a MEQ army into firing at the raider.

[Hellios]

I'm trying (and failing) to build a 2000pt Salamander army list, mostly because I'm insisting on it being a Mech force, and also because I've just finished reading Salamander...

 

One of the things that has cropped up is that, in order to fit in units I like fielding, such as Devastators, Vanguard/Assault Marines and a Land Raider Redeemer + THSS I simply cannot afford any armoured tanks.

 

In previous editions I had relied on a couple of Predators and a couple of Land Speeders to distract the enemy anti-tank firepower whilst the rhinos in the force closed with the enemy. However with this new list I am considering, all there is are the Rhinos, a few Razorbacks and Land Raider (and no Raider at 1500 points!).

 

Do you feel that armoured support is a necessity to draw fire away from the humble Rhino, or can shoving 7 or 8 AV11 targets straight down the enemy throat work without the tougher Predators and so forth sitting around?

 

Guard armies shoving 10-12 chimeras and maybe a couple of Leman Russ BTs at the same kind of points (1,500) works pretty well.... I would expect battle cannons (or whatever the player has taken) to do more dmage in a game than the redeemer and the front armour of the chimera is better and they put out more fire power and often outnumber although I'm guessing from the number of transports you have you may have about 50 or so marines who are significantly better than guard infantry...

 

Remember smoke launchers... if you need to get to the foe it isn't such a problem if you get destroyed after you are into them... also cover is your friend... Also personally speaking I tend to target different weapons at transports than I do battle tanks so I wouldn't be worried if you had a pred or two... all it means is you will have a few more lascanons (or equivalent) aimed at your rhinos... but if you had the pred you would have less men in rhinos anyway. I guess it really depends what enemy you are facing.

[Koremu]

I found that the trouble with not taking a high-AV tank was that the enemy could then easily Melta my Transports.

 

I then found that the trouble with taking one high AV tank was that it got Melta'd too easily.

 

So now I take two Vindicators.

[Jackelope King]

Do you feel that armoured support is a necessity to draw fire away from the humble Rhino, or can shoving 7 or 8 AV11 targets straight down the enemy throat work without the tougher Predators and so forth sitting around?

Short version: you're better with higher armor like Predators around.

 

Long version: you win Warhammer 40k by presenting so many threats to the enemy that s/he can't cope with them all, which naturally lends itself to what has been called the "kill gap" around here widening and swinging victory to you. Ideally, those threats are not only capable of damaging the enemy, but also serve to saturate a type of enemy threat to further frustrate the enemy's ability to deal with all of your threats at once. So throwing 7-8 Rhinos at your enemy is good saturation, but the question is whether or not your units are a significant threat. Rhinos are armed with a storm bolter and a Tactical Squad, and essentially serve to either be a mobile midfield bunker that I can fire my Multi-Melta out of or a delivery system to quickly shove 4 or more squads into rapid-fire range.

 

Analyze the threat you're presenting: Tactical Squads are clean-up duty who are also your only real scoring option. You shove them in the enemy's face and you risk losing them in exchange for only really the ability to damage light infantry. Your lone Land Raider full of TH/SS termies is going to be able to crack open most anything you throw them at, but it's a one-of that heavy anti-tank will be targeting. In order to target that light infantry, you're probably going to need to open up enemy transports, necessitating a threat capable of dealing with enemy armor. For Codex: Space Marines, that really comes in two main slots: heavy support or fast attack. You're essentially relying on saturation to force your opponent to deal with the Land Raider at the expense of being able to stop your Rhino Rush.

 

So how can you support that Rhino Rush? With... Assault Marines? Good Lord, no. You've got light anti-infantry, and that's all Assault Marines are good for. And you've already got TH/SS Termies, so why take the Vanguard Squad? You still have no way to force your opponent to dismount for your Tactical Squads to do anything. You need anti-vehicular weaponry, and ideally, that anti-vehicular weaponry should come on a platform that multiplies the threat your Rhinos possess. Devastators... don't. They just give someone a tasty target for anti-infantry weapons of their own. Unless you're using Codex: Space Wolves or planning on a missile spam army at 2500, leave your Devs at home.

 

Your other anti-vehicular options in your yet-unused heavy support slots mainly come in a Rhino chassis. That's more vehicle for your opponent to have to deal with. That's good, because it means any given vehicle in your army is being targeted for fewer shots. Personally, I'll stick with the cheap Dakka Predator every time for this role. The autocannon does a nice job at opening enemy transports from a good range, and then by end-game, it can switch off and be thinning hordes.

 

Of course, you can also support this army with your fast attack slots with land speeders (typhoons open up transports pretty well, and MM/HF speeders open up, well... anything :lol:). In a Vulkan army, point-for-point, a MM/HF land speeder is a massive threat that your opponent needs to again dedicate firepower to (again protecting your Rhinos). Finally, there are Rifleman Dreads. Twin-Linked Autocannons very, very reliably open up transports. They demand Elites Slots, of course, which you may or many not have to spare.

 

Note that in all of these cases, there are vehicular answers. Why are they superior to foot answers (like drop-podded Sternguard with combi-meltas or Devastators)? Because they multiply the threat of every other piece of armor on the table. Now each enemy anti-tank weapon has to deal with even more armor, you've achieved even greater saturation, and your opponent is that much closer to choking on your army.

[DarkGuard]

I found that the trouble with not taking a high-AV tank was that the enemy could then easily Melta my Transports.

 

I then found that the trouble with taking one high AV tank was that it got Melta'd too easily.

 

So now I take two Vindicators.

 

Ditto here, and they tend to do so well. I find people normally ignore my Sternguard and Tactical Marine filled Rhinos for a couple of turns when the Vindicators hit the board.

 

To the OP, I used to run a half company list at 1500pts, which only had 2 Rhinos and 2 Razorbacks for AV units. Worked ok because I had a few other threats and fire support. However, heavy armour like Vindicators can help. Of course, you have a Land Raider so that's something, but if you can drop something for a Pred or Vindy (or two) you may find it well worth it.

[Gothical]

Ok some mixed responses here.

 

Hoperfully I can keep the Land Raider - it's a nice anchor-point in the otherwise lightly-armed force.

 

If I can find the points for other sorts of armoured support, what should I look into?

 

Predators? When I used to use them they tended to be ignored, unless the enemy had a really key vehicle in their army they did not want to lose - the opponent figured the mobile, scoring units were more important than a 1-3 shot tank sitting around alone at the back.

 

Vindicators? Very powerful, but can be a bit limited in my experience, and slightly dangerous with Tactical Squads and Terminators nearby. I suppose they would be quite useful, but I'm not keen on them from bad experiences.

 

Dreadnoughts? They have the long range power of Predators, and the "pushing-up" nature of Vindicators, although not quite the same armour. But are they really dangerous enough to warrant the opponents attention.

[Brother Tual]

Ask yourself, If your enemy had a landraider, a pred,a dread and a vindicator at 24' away, which would you shoot at first? which would you shoot at second?

 

What kind of weapns would you shoot at each threat and what weapons would you not use to try and kill each threat (Ie - autocannon vs landraider - not a good option) and how many of these options do you have?

 

If you have a MM speeder or termycide unit dropping in, what would u put it closest to?

 

If you think logically, I cant see why your enemy wouldnt think the same or have the same conflicting thoughts.

 

Vindicators.. slightly dangerous with Tactical Squads and Terminators nearby

thats the point of str 10, AP2 and large blast... :)

[DarkGuard]

What other units are you using? If you give us some details on that we may be able to advise you on what you could drop and what to replace them with. For example, two Vindicators may be devastating at close range, but if your list lacks ranged firepower then Predators may be the better option,