New (Young) Player Starting out

[sw001]

Hey -

 

My 9 year old son is starting out, and wants to play the Blood Angels (he likes Space Marines, and some of the Blood Angels models like the Baal Predator appeal to him). He's played a bunch of games with the default Space Marines codex, and does okay. I am mostly playing against him with a pretty straightforward Space Wolves force (I like wolves ;-)).

 

So, looking at the Blood Angels codex, and helping him put together an army list around 1000 pts, the lists seem to be pretty specialized, with less room for error. I guess what I'm looking for is advice on a solid 1000 pt core for a younger player to develop with. Something that is fairly durable, and can try out a bunch of strategies.

 

And the army list really needs to have a Baal Predator :P

 

For reference, I'll be using Space Wolves against him, mostly Grey Hunters, with a few Wolf Guard mixed in, and a pack of Long Fangs with Missile Launchers. I'll run a Rune Priest for a commander. If there is a Blood Angel list out there that'll easily destroy it, great!

 

So far, for the Blood Angels army for him to run (not sure if its good). We have a fair amount of models and will be buying more.

 

Librarian w/ Blood Lance, Smite, and Jump Pack

2 Assaut Squads of 10 w/ dual meltas and a single powerfist each

1 Predator w/ lascanon's on the sides

1 Sanguinary Priest w/ jet pack and combi melta (to escort two squads)

Baal(?)...

 

Thanks.

[voi shet magir]

So I know some nine-year-olds, and even if he isn't especially precocious, yours is probably as good at warhammer as any thirty year old on B&C.

 

2 Assaut Squads of 10 w/ dual meltas and a single powerfist each

 

Even with the priest, assault squads are cruddy for just smashing into Grey Hunters. Having two of the same kind extracts novelty from the situation sometimes. If you want to use assault squads as troops, you might keep one like that, and take the other one as five marines with a single lightning claw, a melta, and an assault cannon razorback instead of jump packs, which gets you another model that has the baal's look.

 

The priest can lose his jump pack too, and ride in the razorback. His chalice effect extends six inches all around the tank while he's inside, which is sort of silly, but it is a wider area of effect and keeps him safer than being a somewhat weak IC who is in combat all the time. The JP squad can be enormously improved by changing the Librarian to a Reclusiarch. The Librarian is not doing very much, as it is.

 

1 Predator w/ lascanon's on the sides

 

These are bad. Sponson lascannons are so low they have line-of-site problems, and because lascannons are mainly good for shooting transports, they are better spread over multiple units, because the predator can only target one enemy at a time. Also, tank models are expensive, and I just suggested buying another tank.

 

You could replace it with a single attack bike, which can be protected by the razorback and baal, while being able to kill serious tanks that lascannons or assault cannons are not strong against. The long-range ability to kill rhinos (although the assault cannons are good at closer range) can be filled by another small assault squad with a flamer and riding in a lascannon razorback, which can also claim objectives that the first troop squads would leave behind. If price is a problem, a small devastator squad or a dreadnought can be had for similar points.

 

Baal(?)

 

Naturally, go to town with the cool stuff. The above suggestions leave room for buying your choice of sponsons.

 

Good luck with the painting part, too. This is a cool thing to do with your kid.

[Ranwulf]

Resilience might depends on what you want. Sanguinary Priests usually allow you to make more mistakes(after all, 2 saves helps a lot), and let's not forget, Sanguinary Guard are very useful if used right, and very resilient too. But, you can use Terminators, they allow you to survive those nasty AP1 and AP2 hits....

 

It's true however that our forces are pretty much Elite forces (not the elite slot, I mean type of army), and one guy dying SUCKS a lot, but once again, they are fairly tough to kill. Now here is some combos that have worked so far:

 

Librarian(Might of Heroes+either Sanguine Sword or Unleash Rage)+Sanguinary Priest+ 8 Veterans Vanguards inside of a Rhino(or other Transport)

 

This is a special unit, with many weapon choices, many attacks, and rerolls to hit.

 

Death Company and Chaplain:

 

Use it, love it....and out it inside of transport, they are incredible, specially when assaulting.

 

Assault Squads with Sanguinary Priest: Using it right you can deepstrike with 4 Melta shot.

 

Well, thats most of it, but if your son likes Close Combat, he will love the Blood Angels.

 

For the Emperor and Sanguinius.

 

Ran

[toaae]

1 Predator w/ lascanon's on the sides

 

These are bad. Sponson lascannons are so low they have line-of-site problems, and because lascannons are mainly good for shooting transports, they are better spread over multiple units, because the predator can only target one enemy at a time. Also, tank models are expensive, and I just suggested buying another tank.

 

I have to disagree here. Autocannon preds with lascannon sponsons are excellent for popping any vehicle.

[Drachnon]

Side sponsons do sometimes have line of sight problems. Still since us BA now have access to a lot of fast vehicles, ensuring line of sight shouldn't be that hard.

BTW Ranwulf with the 4 melta shots from an assault squad do you mean a Vanguard Squad or equipping both Priest and sergeant with Infernus pistol and squad with 2 guns? Personally I wouldn't count on the infernus pistols being able to fire when deep striking. You want to stay a safe distance away from the enemy so you don't deepstrike into the enemy squad and with only 6" range the infernus pistols aren't like to reach.

 

Also Death Company can't be controlled possibly making them less fun to play with for a 9 year old. Not a choice I'd recommend for new players.

 

I personally prefer varied lists that do a little bit of everything. However my lists are rarely meant to be the most effective they can be.

This is my current 1000 point list:

Reclusiarch with jump pack and melta bombs

Furioso in drop pod. With blood talons heavy flamer and extra armor.

Full size Tactical Squad divided into combat squads. One has missile launcher the other has a melta gun.

8 Assault marines with flamer and powerfist for sergeant (jump packs)

5 Assault marines with meltagun, power weapon and melta bomb mounted in razorback with twin linked heavy flamer

and a vindicator to finish the list.

 

It has some assault power, deep strike, a tank and some tactical marines that can grab objectives. Its not a tournament worthy list though.

[sw001]

Thanks for the answers. I have some followup questions.

 

So I know some nine-year-olds, and even if he isn't especially precocious, yours is probably as good at warhammer as any thirty year old on B&C.

I think he's pretty clever, but I realize I'm probably a bit biased :D

 

Even with the priest, assault squads are cruddy for just smashing into Grey Hunters. Having two of the same kind extracts novelty from the situation sometimes. If you want to use assault squads as troops, you might keep one like that, and take the other one as five marines with a single lightning claw, a melta, and an assault cannon razorback instead of jump packs, which gets you another model that has the baal's look

So this is one of the debates I was having while helping with the army. I love the idea of Marines with the jetpacks, and they seem cheaper (game cost wise) then outfitting with transports. Having assault marines as troops really sets the Blood Angels apart I think. Yet Rhinos/Razerbacks are more durable, and technically faster I think w/ 18" moves.

 

Having one Sanguinary Priest cover a squad in a transport, and jetpacks, would seem more difficult. I had though of the two jetpack units hitting hard with furious charge, which would offset the Wolves counter attack because the Blood Angels hit first. Especially switching to a chaplain for more punch.

 

Sanguinary Priests really seem powerful, so would you even take a second if you kept one squad in a transport?

 

These are bad. Sponson lascannons are so low they have line-of-site problems, and because lascannons are mainly good for shooting transports, they are better spread over multiple units, because the predator can only target one enemy at a time. Also, tank models are expensive, and I just suggested buying another tank.

Interesting. I thought the Predator was the easiest choice in the list. I love that the Blood Angels have fast vehicles, so a tank can move 6" and still fire all weapons. I always though the default Predator wasn't as good in the w/out the fast ability. Even if you fire at one vehicle, or group, its pretty massive damage w/ all those guns, especially since they can fire.

 

Naturally, go to town with the cool stuff. The above suggestions leave room for buying your choice of sponsons.

Very easy to go to town w/ this codex. My son and I love all the models. The thought of a Librarian Dread is very cool.

 

Assault Squads with Sanguinary Priest: Using it right you can deepstrike with 4 Melta shot.

Good tip. I didn't even think of that when looking at the instructions. I'm going to play my Wolves w/ a lot of Drop Pods, simply as it seems in character for them, but it looks like the Blood Angels are even better at Deep Striking tactically. Opens up the unit for possibilities.

 

Death Company and Chaplain:

 

Use it, love it....and out it inside of transport, they are incredible, specially when assaulting

We were thinking of Death Company in the second 1000 pts when we get there. Fun unit to look at.

 

Furioso in drop pod. With blood talons heavy flamer and extra armor.

How effective are dropped Dreads? They just seem very slow once they land, and vulnerable with weaker armor? Is my perception wrong?

 

Any thoughts, if we do go Baal, on Flamestorm vs Assault Cannon? Personally, if I see a Flamestorm cannon in the game, I'll try to kill it first. Assault cannon not so much.

 

Also, the big question I get from my son, is why not in a 1000 pt game field one of the super HQ units? Mephiston and the Sanguinor are both expensive, so my argument is that when they die, they take a quarter of his army. Yet when I look at the stats for one of those units, I'm not sure how I'll kill them. Mephiston looks like he could wipe out a whole unit of Wolf Guard by himself...

 

Good luck with the painting part, too. This is a cool thing to do with your kid.

Its a blast playing with him. My son really loves building the models and playing, not so much the painting yet. My other son is getting into Flames of War, another fun, but expensive game. Still fun.

 

Thanks again for the replies.

[angel of justice]

If you want to make a list a lot more forgiving add priests to pretty much every squad, You might want to teach him the value of having multiple units capable of fufilling multiple goals Ie a tactical squad or specialised squads doing one thing really well such as devastators.

 

You can play blood angels in many ways from gun line to assault to mech and they are all pretty good before you build or buy anything maybe proxy an army or to and find out what your son likes there are a few units on my shelf that just dont get used but look pretty cool.

[Priest33]

GAH! talk about a trial by fire for the poor 9yr old kid, his dad even takes cheese against him in the form of Wolves :D

 

Onto the baal, I run 2 both with Asscan and h.bolter sponsons and they do a great job at ripping a hole in most units and even vehicals. I proxied 2 flamestorm versions but they havent impressed me at all. Getting that close to the foe with such weak side armor is asking for the tank to be poped.

[Bishoujo]

GAH! talk about a trial by fire for the poor 9yr old kid, his dad even takes cheese against him in the form of Wolves :D

 

At least he's not running leafblower guard against him. ;)

[Priest33]

haha to true!

 

Other thing Id say is get him some Furioso dreds, I drop pod mine if only to tie everyone up for a while and attempt to cover side armor with the drop pod and rear with the pod as well so to get a cover save in the first turn. Since they have meltas and in my case flamers i use them to pop and burn transports :D

 

-edit- oh and I forgot to mention, your army plays to his weaknesses rather well. (Wolves do this easy against BA really) Might wanna swap to a SM list for games with your son just so he can have a better chance of "beating" dad. Most 9 yr olds I know lose intrest in games as soon as they start losing, a fact made worse if dad is the one kicking their arse! However if said son is able to beat dad then you have a gamer for life ;)

[Isryion]

To answer a couple of your questions:

 

1) I personally find the jump packs fun, but they can always be mixed and matched. The transports and other tanks can provide cover for the jumpers. As a side note, over two turns a jump pack unit can move-move-assault 30 inches while a transported RAS squad can go flat out out-disembark-move-assault over two turns for --- 32 inches. It's pretty darn close.

 

2) I'd have a hard time fitting two sang priests in a 1k list, personally. In my 1500+ I've got two. One with no jump pack and the other with.

 

3) The regular fast pred interests me list of our vehicles, though some people like them. I'd take the vindicator over that in the heavy slot, which can move 12" and still fire it's big cannon. I'd start with a Baal Pred, though, with Assault Cannons as it is a bit more flexible -- especially with the ability to outflank.

 

4) My drop pod DC dread w/talons is a lot of fun. It's my only pod, but between having it and a unit of DC on the board, along with a Baal Pred or two, my opponent has a lot to worry about. It is very easy to kill, though, I'd agree with that and the turn after it comes in is a bit tense. A furioso has better armor, though.

 

5) The super guys are scary, no doubt, but as you try and point it out, BA are already going to be small at 1k. A reclusiarch regular librarian are both effective and allow you to take a bit more. On the other hand, what keeps his interest will be important, too.

[Emperors Immortals]

Well, id say to include dreads, 6 inch move plus fire all weapons equals lots of fun.

 

Try to include a VaS so he understands the importance of specialised troops - and against your list id recommend plasma all the way.The somewhay varaible death rate for firers is truly part of the fun.

 

Lastly, if your son loves hard hitting killers units (and what 9 year old, or 29 year old doesnt) then let him run DC or sang gaurd - ultra killy and masses of fun.

 

p.s i agree with switching to nilla marines (even angry marines) for the first few games.

[voi shet magir]

Interesting. I thought the Predator was the easiest choice in the list. I love that the Blood Angels have fast vehicles, so a tank can move 6" and still fire all weapons. I always though the default Predator wasn't as good in the w/out the fast ability. Even if you fire at one vehicle, or group, its pretty massive damage w/ all those guns, especially since they can fire.

 

A unit with three weapons can only hurt one enemy. Two units, each with one weapon, have a similar chance of hurting a single enemy if they focus fire, but if one of them can do the job on its own, then the second can try for another unit. Most vehicles can be effectively damaged by one or two shots, even if only prevented from shooting until the next turn, by which time you will have had a second crack at them.

 

The predator in particular is not much more powerful than taking more units with fewer weapons, because its weapons are mounted so low they often allow cover saves. The predator can move closer, past intervening terrain, but that defeats the point of long ranged cannons. In addition to engaging more targets in more places, multiple units can have more diverse weaponry, which can threaten more types of targets.

 

Two units also have different vantage points - if you just have the predator for ranged shooting, the enemy can not only hide better, but knows where to point his front armor. Even if the predator moves to get a clear shot, it is very likely to be against a high AV. The predator's own av is an obstacle. Predators pay a lot of points for high front armor, and then BA versions spend many more points for engines. This works at cross purposes, because maneuvering, either away from the board sides or closer to the enemy, exposes the front armor. There are also better choices for maneuverability: dreadnoughts can move six inches and fire multiple weapons, razorbacks move fast to track down elusive targets and not waste the sponsons it doesn't have, attack bikes or speeders are just plain faster. None of these units have to worry about armor facing.

 

How effective are dropped Dreads? They just seem very slow once they land, and vulnerable with weaker armor? Is my perception wrong?

 

They are effective when the army is built around them.

Also, the big question I get from my son, is why not in a 1000 pt game field one of the super HQ units? Mephiston and the Sanguinor are both expensive, so my argument is that when they die, they take a quarter of his army. Yet when I look at the stats for one of those units, I'm not sure how I'll kill them. Mephiston looks like he could wipe out a whole unit of Wolf Guard by himself...

 

Awesome is as awesome does. Astorath all day every day

 

I personally find the jump packs fun, but they can always be mixed and matched. The transports and other tanks can provide cover for the jumpers. As a side note, over two turns a jump pack unit can move-move-assault 30 inches while a transported RAS squad can go flat out out-disembark-move-assault over two turns for --- 32 inches. It's pretty darn close.

 

Since one is not particularly better than the other as far as mobility, they had might as well be used in combination. If an assault squad is not enhanced by a Chaplain's Liturgies, they had might as well provide a great deal of firepower, in form of a transport. The transport can also tank shock to herd units into more cooperative locations. The transport can shield an attack bike, and together they are good at softening the field for the jumping units.

 

I'd have a hard time fitting two sang priests in a 1k list, personally. In my 1500+ I've got two. One with no jump pack and the other with.

 

Priests are awkward pieces of infrastructure, and even one is not always necessary.

[wookielips]

Librarian w/ Blood Lance, Smite, and Jump Pack

2 Assaut Squads of 10 w/ dual meltas and a single powerfist each

1 Predator w/ lascanon's on the sides

1 Sanguinary Priest w/ jet pack and combi melta (to escort two squads)

Baal(?)...

 

Thanks.

 

ditch smite for shield. ditch combi-melta on SP for IP and/or PW. ditch pred annihilator for baal BBQ (hellstorm cannon)

 

you still have 200 left, there abouts. maybe a libbie dread-wings/might (190 w ex armor), ras 5 in RB w hvy flamer or TLHB + a 2nd SP (3 troops is never a bad idea)?

 

baals run best in tandem. at such a small points level, they will have a big impact me thinks.

 

Furioso in drop pod. With blood talons heavy flamer and extra armor.

How effective are dropped Dreads? They just seem very slow once they land, and vulnerable with weaker armor? Is my perception wrong?

 

if you drop those dreads (or a dread in) be ready to either:

 

1. support it with baals immediately

2. zoom stormravens to its defense, again, immediately

3. watch it get popped after it lands and shoots

[Drachnon]

Actually the armour of Furioso's is pretty good same front armour as Predator and better side armour. The trick is deploying the dread from the drop pod on the other side of the opponents anti tank weapons giving it a cover save on top of his normal armour. Once the Fusioso get into close combat he becomes much harder to kill for most armies.

 

I personally really like the priests but they work best in infantry heavy armies. If you're going to field a lot of mech they become less efficient. Also the priests themselves are quite vulnerable in close combat so watch out with that.

[sw001]

GAH! talk about a trial by fire for the poor 9yr old kid, his dad even takes cheese against him in the form of Wolves

Funny! I liked the concept / fluff, and they seemed a good army. Mostly from what I've seen, the Wolves are good, but around the same strength as some of the other armies, like the Blood Angels. I think the Blood Angels fluff is great too. I don't know why anyone would want to play straight Space Marines w/ the Wolves and Blood Angels around.

 

Actually the armour of Furioso's is pretty good same front armour as Predator and better side armour. The trick is deploying the dread from the drop pod on the other side of the opponents anti tank weapons giving it a cover save on top of his normal armour. Once the Fusioso get into close combat he becomes much harder to kill for most armies.

Good point.

 

Lots of interesting comments on Dreads, and building armies around them. I'm still not sure what the best units for support are. Since Dreads are slow, that's more of a foot slogging army, or do you drop them and support w/ Baals?

 

A unit with three weapons can only hurt one enemy. Two units, each with one weapon, have a similar chance of hurting a single enemy if they focus fire, but if one of them can do the job on its own, then the second can try for another unit. Most vehicles can be effectively damaged by one or two shots, even if only prevented from shooting until the next turn, by which time you will have had a second crack at them

 

True, but I've seen a lot of shots miss, and to really kill something from range it seems like massed powerful shots works. Meltas are great if you can get close, which maybe attack bikes can.

 

baals run best in tandem. at such a small points level, they will have a big impact me thinks.

Started working through a list with dual Baals. Good idea, and since they are my son's favorites, he's excited.

 

Try to include a VaS so he understands the importance of specialised troops - and against your list id recommend plasma all the way.The somewhay varaible death rate for firers is truly part of the fun.

VaS? (Sorry, don't know what it stands for). Plasma adds an extra rapid fire shot, but don't most Blood Angels assault? Isn't a melta a better option, plus has the bonus of hitting armor if needed?

 

-edit- oh and I forgot to mention, your army plays to his weaknesses rather well. (Wolves do this easy against BA really) Might wanna swap to a SM list for games with your son just so he can have a better chance of "beating" dad. Most 9 yr olds I know lose intrest in games as soon as they start losing, a fact made worse if dad is the one kicking their arse! However if said son is able to beat dad then you have a gamer for life

I may run a vanilla Marines list to start. Kyle is definitely into gaming, but I at least want to make him work a bit for a win :P. We've played some games before and he's done well at times and won a few games. I'm trying to take the "fun" aspect of the Wolves, and drop pod, and hopefully run the actual Wolves (Fenrisian packs) as units (if I can find any models). I don't think they look very tough.

 

So, based on advice, another quick list we worked up (w/ Baals and flying Marines)

 

Reclusiarch w/ jump pack

 

Assault Squad w/ 10 Marines, Power Fist, 2 Meltas w/ Jump Packs

 

2 Sets of: 6 Assault Marines, Melta Gun, Power Weapon, Razerback, TL Assault Cannon

 

2 Baal Predators w/ Assault Cannons

 

Still, not a lot of Marines, but lots of tanks, and tremendous fire power from the assault cannons. Maybe to much. The Razerbacks can run together, w/ the large killer jump force behind to bring the hammer. The Baals can cause havoc in support, along w/ the Razerbacks. It seems like a ton of stuff to shoot at. I dropped the San Priest, and can add him in later.

 

Ideally, if we start getting good core forces down, we can move down and play a bit at the 'local' hobby shop.

 

One last question, and good 'tactica' write ups? One thing I found for the Wolves which is great is a blog: http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/ Besides unit info, lots of good painting and other tips.

 

Thanks again!

[wookielips]

Actually the armour of Furioso's is pretty good same front armour as Predator and better side armour. The trick is deploying the dread from the drop pod on the other side of the opponents anti tank weapons giving it a cover save on top of his normal armour. Once the Fusioso get into close combat he becomes much harder to kill for most armies.

 

thats a VERY hard thing to do now a days. almost everyone has mobile, fast anti-armor that can get to the dread's side/rear armor the turn it comes in, and pop it. ive tried it quite a bit, but i find it hard to now to spend the points for the DP.

 

I personally really like the priests but they work best in infantry heavy armies. If you're going to field a lot of mech they become less efficient. Also the priests themselves are quite vulnerable in close combat so watch out with that.

 

bear in mind that priests' bubble is MUCH larger when its extended from a RB/LR/SR. if you find your priests getting popped/PF'ed, then keep them in the transport and you still get the bubble. you lose their attacks...... but what is 2-4 attacks really going to do, verses keeping his bubble intact?

[Priest33]

I may run a vanilla Marines list to start. Kyle is definitely into gaming, but I at least want to make him work a bit for a win . We've played some games before and he's done well at times and won a few games. I'm trying to take the "fun" aspect of the Wolves, and drop pod, and hopefully run the actual Wolves (Fenrisian packs) as units (if I can find any models). I don't think they look very tough.

 

Nilla marines will still give a new BA player headaches and there are still a metric tonn of options to give your son a run for his money. However if you where to play wolves against him its going to be a much much harder game (FOR HIM).

 

Marines in general (even the chaos ones) are a very forgiving army make a mistake and it dont matter so much due to their stats and armor saves, things like cover become less important as they are walking forts. Each squad can be equipted with weapons that are great in each given situation and a high leadership value makes them very hard to break at the worst of times.

 

Wolves add to this by becoming a very well ballenced army. Special rules like counter attack mean that even if your son gets the perfect pin point charge with all the right units your still going to be hitting back just as hard as he is. Long fangs are one of the best anti tank choices in the game (IMO) for the simple factt hat they can each individualy choose to shoot at a different target. There are a bunch of other great rules that wolves get but these 2 are the basic ones to highlight the fact that wolves are tough as nails. By all means when your son gets a good feel for the game go ahead an switch to wolves, some of the best games ive seen have been vs Wolves players, but untill he has the basics of the game and tactics down Id advise against it.

 

Some advice with priests: Put them in a unit untill your ready to charge soemthing then dis engage them and move them seperatly behind the unit, maintaining their bubble effect but staying out of close combat where a smart opponant can target them directly.

[Emperors Immortals]

My reply to this was not posted for some reason, so heres a quick summary;

 

First, youre list above looks really good, very mobile and quite balanced but for friendlies id drop one RB and pick up a furioso.

 

VAS is Vangaurd assault squad, veteran assault squads. They can have some really nince combat options like LC and the like, but do try to include an HonourGaurd unit if you can, its specilaised and can take either 4 meltas for anti-armour or all power weapons for Meq (marine equivalant)

 

Personally, i love this game for one main reason - DREADNOUGHTS!!!!! (ZOMG) and i always include one or two for my army.I take (ATM) a DC dread - podded nearest either 1 elite unit or 2/3 weaker units), a Furioso again podded (to hold up units or assault tanks with the melts/HF combo) and 2 heavy support dreads (ass cannon/HB and ML) and i screen with a LR or use them as a screen for my footsloggers (4+ behind the dread and if there immobilised its no real biggy they can still fire)

 

Lastly, plasma is 2 shots at one S less then meltas ans perfect for MEQ (marine equivilants) i usually pack a few into various squads (a HG with hidden priest gets a few pistols or a few guns) and there troop killers not tank busters (though its worked out well in the past for me). There just fun to see the high firepower output.

 

Lastly, i love chaplains but in my smaller games ive been taking a captain and getting better mileage out of him.

 

 

 

Good luck and please let us know how you guys go i really hope this great hobby can get a new fan having lots of fun.

 

 

 

p.s; youre one cool dad, enjoy the hobby with youre kids :)

[Emperors Immortals]

just curious as to weather your son got his list going yet?

[Bomma]

Definately a bump looking for an answer.. I've got a list that I might put up if your still lose on choices.

 

B.