Black Legion thoughts

[Gree]

Alright, I've been thinking about the Black Legion and I've come up with a list of..........well it's not really questionings but more like ponderings about their culture and organization.

 

Do the Black Legion view themselves as the XVI Legion? For example like the Word Bearers refer to themselves as the XVII legion and VII Legion respectively. How would they view themselves? As successors to the Sons of Horus or something else entirely.

 

How many of the Black Legion would be composed of the original Sons of Horus or those with Horus's geneseed? I know that a large amount of Marine join the Black Legion and can even rise to high command positions, like with Ruven in Soul Hunter, but how many of the Horus geneseed marines still remain?

[isilvra]

From what I can tell the Black legion try to distance themselves from what they used to be. They shed their name so I would imagine they would get rid of their numerical designation too. As for numbers? Depends what source you use. According to Anthony Renyalds in his Word Bearers Series it's in the hundreds of thousands. Other sources have it at a more typical estimate. Considering how often they have been defeated by the Imperium over ten thousand years I suspect there are very few of the original Legion left.

[Yogi]

Denial is a wonderful thing. They are called the black legion to get away from horus failure, so there is no way they are deliberately calling themselves the 16th..

 

There is no canon on how much of the BL are composed of original traitors, But the fluff gives me the feeling that the legion has plenty of former something else's in its ranks.. I hazards 40-50%.

 

Anyway thats how I see it.

[Rain]

I would have to disagree with Yogi and say that very very few of the original legionnaires are left. The reason is that according to their IA, the Sons of Horus were savaged in the Eye of Terror by all of the other traitor legions who hated them for their perceived cowardice on Terra and the fact that they were the first to flee when Horus was killed. On top of this, they were losing many men to demonic possession that was leaving the bodies empty husks after the daemons were done (though their sorcerers eventually figured out ways to keep this from happening).

 

In any case this drove the legion close to complete annihilation, and it was only Abaddon's charisma and the unity that he instilled that saved them. Further down the line, they recruited a bunch of marines from other legions, as well as having Fabius make them recruits, but of all of the legions I would say they probably have the least Heresy vets relative to their total strength.

[chaplain belisarius]

interesting thread! nice to see the black legion getting some love...:)

[Gree]

Considering how often they have been defeated by the Imperium over ten thousand years I suspect there are very few of the original Legion left.

 

The whole theme of Abaddon being defeated repeatedly is nothing more than a misinformed meme. certainly abaddon is sucessful in using lesser renegades and warbands as shields for his Black Legion, as demonstrated in Soul Hunter.

[Yogi]

I would have to disagree with Yogi and say that very very few of the original legionnaires are left. The reason is that according to their IA, the Sons of Horus were savaged in the Eye of Terror by all of the other traitor legions who hated them for their perceived cowardice on Terra and the fact that they were the first to flee when Horus was killed. On top of this, they were losing many men to demonic possession that was leaving the bodies empty husks after the daemons were done (though their sorcerers eventually figured out ways to keep this from happening).

 

In any case this drove the legion close to complete annihilation, and it was only Abaddon's charisma and the unity that he instilled that saved them. Further down the line, they recruited a bunch of marines from other legions, as well as having Fabius make them recruits, but of all of the legions I would say they probably have the least Heresy vets relative to their total strength.

 

I smell logic in this opinion.. Sadly chaos doesn't work on logic.. For example how are their any berzerkers left? Angron lead them in the tens of thousands to Armageddon was defeated. They fight in a manner that often suffer causalities and so on.. Their should only be a handful of original berzerkers left.. This is not the common belief though, because its not cool.

 

Its the same with any other legion. All my opinion naturally. But the lore will always be about the original traitors because they are cool. So when it addresses the Black legion they will be original traitors.

[Captain Tezdal]

How are their any berzerkers left? It's obvious, Im a new renegade space marine, just put on my first spikey bits....now what to do? Join up with a nobody pirate in the maelstrom? Catch Typhoid and bask in nurglyness? Of course Not! You go for the 'ardest gits around, with the biggest chain-axes, and the most gratuitous violence, a Berzerkers life for me!

[Yogi]

So your world eater avatar is pointless? Because they are all dead except for a few?

 

I don't think so.

[caboosebe]

As for my opinion: Remember that the time in the Warp isn't the same as realspace. thousand of years may have past, enough to spread more geneseed of Horus onto new recruits and the likes. Although it's never fully discribed in the novels, this could be an escape for GW and writers to let Chaos Legions never truly die. They get defeated with only 100 survivors, go back to the Eye, the time flow may be 10.000 years while its a month (random figures) in realspace, and they come back with an other force. Again, this is poorly discribed, just enough to use it as an escape to explain situations like this one. So it's up to the novelwriter and/or the fanmade full-writer to make something he wants, and still be largely right about it because there isn't any real data on it

 

But just my opinion :lol:

 

greetz

[the jeske]

most legions did not break up post the heresy or the legion war that followed. only the EC and WE realy broke up . the NL/AL and WB still work as one legion . DG/IW/1ksons have warbands , but they are doing their primarch given task 99% of thime[with the 1% being led by tyfus or ahriman] . most legions also still recruit new guys , in at least 3 different ways . the 1ksons cant die out unless someone kills all of their sorc and magnus.

[Marshal Rohr]

That is how I understood it too Jeske.

[Lexington]

the NL/AL and WB still work as one legion .

I don't know that this is true of the Night Lords. As I recall, after Kurze's death, the Legion split into raiding warbands with little organization between them.

[the jeske]

lord of the night tells us that the NL have a high comand this means they have structure . yes they do operate as warbands , but all legions worked like that even before the heresy . seeing whole legions or even greater parts of them in the same place at the same time was special . also the NL fluff were the only chaos legion that did not flee from the imperial forces and even the assasination of kruz didnt change that. Or do you mean the 3ed JJ dex fluff where all legions broke up in to warbands of not only mixed units , but also mixed cult/legion guys in one force ?

[chaplain belisarius]

I see the black legion as organised but in a fairly loose way. The legion is broken into warbands each with their own set up-undivided, khornate, nurgle, tzeentch or slaaneshii. All these different warbands pretty much do their own thing until abaddon calls on them and then they obey without question!

 

hope this made sense...:)

[isilvra]

lord of the night tells us that the NL have a high comand this means they have structure

 

Soul hunter tells us that the Night Lords do not have any real command authority as no worthy heir has come forward to claim Night Haunters throne. They do however apper to keep to the pre heresy organization with the companies staying togeather. Presumably all that is stopping them becomeing a unified Legion is an heir.

[the jeske]

I think I never done it before , but here I go . In character. Go tell Acerbus on the main ship of the NL main fleet and tell him he aint the leader of all NL.

[Yogi]

Laugh at acerbus.. you've been retconned.

[Hobo Willie]

He didn't get retconned. I'm pretty sure he just holds the majority of the Legion. But, as Soul Hunter shows, he doesn't hold all of it and no one will unless a proper successor were to claim leadership.

[the jeske]

that is only because before hunter they didnt knew the crown still existed . I mean he ordered the whole NL and the whole NL fleet to not attack the eldar craft worlds and go after the crown . If he was not the main commander or if there was main command , most lords[who would have no chance to get the crown or get more precise get and hold on to it for long enough] would tell himt o bugger off. It is like that with the WE or EC no structure , every man for himself etc .

[Brother Nihm]

He didn't get retconned. I'm pretty sure he just holds the majority of the Legion. But, as Soul Hunter shows, he doesn't hold all of it and no one will unless a proper successor were to claim leadership.

Actually he has retconned, he was responsible for a lot of Periclitor's actions in a short-story, on GW's old UK website. If you read that and then look up Periclitor's deeds in C:CSM (esp. 3rd ed.) you'll see the similarities.

 

But that isn't directly relevant to this topic.

[Rain]

That's because he and Periclitor were originally the same entity. That is, GW wanted to make up a "generic Night Lords daemon prince" and wrote that blurb about him under the name "Acerbus" then that same blurb was translated and expanded on in the 3.5 codex but for whatever reason the name was changed. But I guess they are two different entities now as Periclitor was apparently destroyed according to some BL nonsense, real shame too as he seemed pretty awesome.

[Gree]

Denial is a wonderful thing. They are called the black legion to get away from horus failure, so there is no way they are deliberately calling themselves the 16th..

 

Then why are they still using his heraldry? They can't be completely cut off from what they used to be if they still use Horus's symbol.

[Walter Payton]

that is only because before hunter they didnt knew the crown still existed . I mean he ordered the whole NL and the whole NL fleet to not attack the eldar craft worlds and go after the crown . If he was not the main commander or if there was main command , most lords[who would have no chance to get the crown or get more precise get and hold on to it for long enough] would tell himt o bugger off. It is like that with the WE or EC no structure , every man for himself etc .

 

Ten thousand years have passed since then. The Night Lords split as a consequence of that night. And that is not strictly true. Soul Hunter presents events as the Night Lord commanders, several of whom viewed themselves as the Haunter's heirs, simply gunning for loot and treasure. Indeed, it was only after it became clear the M'Shen had stolen Konrad's crown that the Legion even began to prosecute against the assasin. Ditto the Eldar. The Legion fractured that night. If the Legion was such a unified body, why did they simply let I Company die onboard the assasin's vessel?

 

We also have Soul Hunter again:

 

"You speak of disunity. Your Legion lacks a figurehead."

 

"You are a broken Legion."

 

Abaddon the Despoiler, to Talos,

 

"Captain Acerbus leads the largest coalition of companies, but, again, his insistence reeks of desperation and need."

 

"If you are offering me the leadership of the XII Legion, I refuse because it is an impossible task, and not within your power to grant."

 

"The Talonmaster has vanished, yet his claim was no stronger than any other's, even with his possession of one of our symbolic relics."

 

"I cannot speak for my legion in its entirety. The Exalted will follow you, as he always does. I am sure many of our leaders will do the same."

 

"Our Father's throne sits empty."

 

"No true claimant has come forth, as you (Abaddon) did for your Legion."

 

Talos, to Abaddon the Despoiler.

[caboosebe]

Are we still helping Gree? xD