Why is to many marines a taboo?

[Titan87]

Why is an over sized chapter size so taboo? I know that in DIY we are urged to operate within the framework that our plastic genetically engineered supermen can be awesome, just not as awesome as the orginals (i.e. the first and second founding chapters). I understand this, and agree with it to some extent each chapter needs to fall within reason, and there are certain things the need to be dealt with by GW.

 

However, why is chapter number one of these? I know that the codex says 1000 marines per chapter, but there are no codex police. Index Astartes I even states

 

"Most chapters, however, do not stick so rigidly to the codex patterns laid down either for organization, tactical roles or other processes... The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful whether they could." Emphasis Mine

 

The article goes on to state that the Adeptus Terra prefers to create codex adherent chapters, and that most chapters follow the broad intentions of the codex, but find their own way.

 

So, why is having a large chapter "wrong"? I understand that without the proper development and reasoning that it often is a big neon sign saying my chapter is extra special, however chapter's could be what I like to call codex conscious recognizing the wisdom of the codex and its intentions but going its own way informed by that information.

[Lone Scout]

I am writing fluff for a GW chapter that they tryed to kill off...and I fully intend them to become a SM legion not a chapter. If you want to make them big than go for it....it's your chapter after all.

[Sinister_Miles]

Well in-universe as Im sure you know, the worry is for a chapter to be so large as to present a potent threat to terra. I think in general its mostly to do with recruiting. Most chapters have an entire company of recruits and even that isnt ever really expected to be at full strength. The SW's are the weirdest and you cant really use them as an example so really it seems like no chapter apart from the Black Templars really have a large enough population pool to boost their numbers high enough to really break the 1000 limit. Besides every chapter over 1000 tends to be viewed somewhat suspiciously, the Codex was as much a way to assuage the fears of the imperium as it was a way to allow the Space Marines to do their job, so chapter masters will probably shy away from making their impossible jobs any harder.

[Vash113]

The only two Chapters noted to be larger than Codex dictates are the Black Templars and Space Wolves, both Chapters with a long enough history, enough allies and strong enough forces that trying to sanction them would be the height of foolishness... though some have tried.

 

In any case, Chapters that step out of line are annihilated. The Adeptus Terra does not enforce the 1000 marine limit strictly, and Chapters can increase in size during extended campaigns, but in general a Chapter can't just get as large as it feels like, or it will have the Grey Knights sent to destroy them. Small deviation is fine, for instance the Exorcists have 3 scout Companies, the Aurora Chapter has 3 times as many vehicles and likely a large number of crew to operate them, but that doesn't mean a normally Codex Chapter could double its size without the wrath of Imperial retribution falling on them. Chapters have been destroyed for less after all.

 

As for why it is taboo, well all of the above reasons and, its far from a unique plot line for a DIY Chapter and smacks of wanting to make the Chapter "special" without putting a lot of effort into it. Like the missing Legion idea, the loyalist traitors and so on and so forth, there are better ways to make your Chapter unique and cool without falling back on some of the backgrounds biggest cliches.

[Sigismund Himself]

There is also the problem of recruiting to consider, apart from the issues pointed out by Vash and Sinister. Why is your homeworld so much better at producing recruits than all the other homeworlds we know of (the gang warfare of Necromunda and Kiavahr, the harsh arctic wasteland of Fenris etc etc) or why is your initiation process so much better than the others? All of these issues can be answered but it takes a fair bit of effort to explain properly ;) And this effort could be spent making your chapter's core theme unique, which is really what an IA should be all about.

[Lone Scout]

The only "real" reason is that the High Lords of Terra are cowardly swine, scared of devine justice being meted out by the Emperors warriors. Hell half the space marine chapters think the High Lords are keeping the Emperor alive against his will...so to speak. The Inquisition are but lackies doing the High Lords will....perhaps they are well rewarded for their services of "discovering" witchs, heretics and demons. Again there are chapters that would shoot an Inquisitor on sight.

 

So what I hear people ask.....I simply say that some true chapters have seen through the HLoT's scheme and fear not the retribution of the ][, indeed they welcome the oppertunity to slay the true enemy of the people of Terra and of the Emperor himself. Make your chapter a spacemarine legion and watch evil tremble !!!!

[Ace Debonair]

So, why is having a large chapter "wrong"? I understand that without the proper development and reasoning that it often is a big neon sign saying my chapter is extra special, however chapter's could be what I like to call codex conscious recognizing the wisdom of the codex and its intentions but going its own way informed by that information.

 

Well, one of the major things about the codex, when it was introduced, was that the legions were forced to break into 1,000-marine-sized-chapters.

Explaining why you dishonour something your primarch consented to is always a tricky one.

 

But mostly it's this: Having more than 1,000 marines doesn't add anything but problems to an IA. You then have to explain why there are more marines, why nobody's done anything about it, and probably fiddle with the organisation more than you have to.

 

And after all that effort all those extra marines will seldom have any positive impact whatsoever on a reader. :lol:

 

I wouldn't say it was taboo, as such, I'd just say it was a bad idea.

[Ferrata]

Because no-one has ever read a chapter that had 2000 marines in and went "Wow, that makes them cool!". :lol:

 

I dislike the choice of word that seems to become popular of late. Taboo makes it sound like Liberites don't want to discuss ideas because they think they are beneath them, or that we are better than them. That is not the case, it is just a poor idea and a very obvious trap that a lot of people fall into (I once went there too).

 

Most chapters, however, do not stick so rigidly to the codex patterns laid down either for organization, tactical roles or other processes... The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful whether they could

So they might not spend the correct amount of time in the firing range, instead allowing marines to have more freetime. They might use scouts more frequently that the Codex suggests, or refuse to withdrawl when the Codex would suggest it was the best idea. That is what it means by absolutely. Too many focus on the codex being merely a book on organisation and going against the Codex means purely having twelve companies. No, the Adeptus Terra do not punish chapters for breaking the Codex, but if a chapter begins to be too big for itself (i.e. literally too big) then they will step in. If your chapter has 1200 marines for a period of time, then that is fine, Terra isn't going to jump on them. If they have 1500 marines for a long period of time, setting up defined roles for the captains and writing them into offical organisation, then they will be having a word.

[Yogi]

Being approximately a thousand strong is probably the only major thing the High lords care about. It makes marines superhuman arrogance manageable.

[Hemal]

Indeed - the Badab war was quite a famous conflict where barely a handful of chapters fell from the Eperor's grace (in most cases for a short period of time for relatively innocuous reasons) yet it required a superior Imperial Navy AND Astartes deployment to quell the uprising. Now imagine the consequences had the non-compliant chapters been several times larger in strength than otherwise sanctioned? That would be tantamount to starting a new interlegionnary war..

 

Legions were huge - maybe as much as several hundred thousand but, juding by Heresy books and teh fact that a squadron of large ships and escorts were normally the fleet support for an expedition, were deployed probably in battlegroups of maybe upto 5 thousand to subjugate worlds (Primarch groups may well have been substantially larger). Now if a marine chapter got to 2-3 K marines that would be not far short of a Heresy era planetry subjugation force - an INVASIVE force. Marines in the new Imperium are the rapier that decapitates the opponent rather than a planetary strike force brought in to destroy hard targets which appears to be their modus operandii in the crusade.

[Commander Sasha]

Let's not forget the main catalyst for Guilliman breaking up the legions: when 100,000 marines decided they weren't on the Emperor's side anymore, we got the Horus Heresy.

 

Close tabs are kept on all chapters to ensure that should one start to deviate, it will only take one or two loyalist ones to hold them back.

[blut_und_glas]

I think the reasons why the Imperium normally wouldn't want a chapter to exceed its codex troop strength (at least not too far) are quite clear.

 

The interesting bit is rather why the chapter would want to exceed these limitations in the first place.

 

Regards,

jdw