Meat shields for tanks

[Commander Sasha]

My son has decided to go tank-heavy on his Dark Angels, and developing an Imp guard support for Apocalypse, so we played a game yesterday where he added a squadron of 3 Leman Russ Executioners and 20 guardsmen (well, Lego tanks and Necron Warriors to be exact. Dark Angels are diversifying...) to his 1,500 Angels; it threw up a few queries that I was unsure on, can anyone clarify please?

 

1) If 2/3 of the squadron of 3 tanks are obscured, getting the 4+ save, is the third also, by the 'majority of unit in cover' rule?

 

2) If he arranges his guardsmen around the squadron as a complete circle with 2" gaps between the men, does the tank get a cover save? Or do the men have to be so densely packed that you can only actually see <50% of the tank? Similarly, can a pair of gaunts hide a Carnifex, or does there have to be a dense pack of them to get the 50%?

 

3)...and if his tank is surrounded by his own men, and he fires the turret at me, do I get a cover save because of his men? ( Line of Sight fires over their heads)

 

4)...and the same question but for the sponsons and hull-mounted guns, which are below head height on his human perimeter?

 

5) My scouts ran towards one of his tanks (a hound), after my Drop Dread had homed down behind them; he targetted the Dread with a heavy bolter, giving me an obscured save because of my scouts, but then fired a flamer aswell; the Dread was out of range of the template, but caught a few scouts; was this legal? The template was pointing directly at the Dread.

 

6) My Dreadnought then overtook the scouts and stood in front of the tank. His Flamer bathed my Dread, no problem, but also caught a few scouts behind, to whom the tank had no line of sight; should they have been fried, and would they have got a save?

 

7) Apologies for non PA-question, but can anyone recommend a good Internet forum for Imperial Guard armies?

 

Thanks in advance for any replies :-)

[Arnil]

Los for guns are measure from the gun barrel, so the turret could fire but the side sponsons couldn't if you wouldn't be able to see anyone from them. Flamers ignore cover, and I think it is fine to have it fire, haha get it? No too bad a joke? Okay..., at the tank and the tank being out of range hits the guardsmen. So sorry but yeah flamers always seem to work. Which is why over 60% of my Army includes them! :D

[garreth]

1) No, in terms of geting cover, every vehicle in squadron treated separately. So you have 2 vehicle in cover and third not in cover.

2) See by true line of sight. If guardsmen cover more than 50% of tank - it have cover.

3) I think firing from turret don't give you cover, as turret higher than guarsmen.

4) If using TLoS, measuring from gun mounting point along the barrell he sees more than 50% of your unit/vehicle in gap between guardsmen model - you have no cover.

5) I think it's illegal. By BRB template must cover as much of vehicle as posible. So, IMHO, if you can't cover vehicle at all, you can't fire.

6) It's legal, see above. Template don't need LoS.

[Frosty the Pyro]

1. no, squadren rules specify that each vehicle is considered individualy.

2. For a vehicle they would have to be densly packed enouph, also the guardsmen would need to be at least half as tall as the vehicle. I am fairly certain the turret counts toward height in this manner, though banners and gun barrels would not. For your case of the carnifex the anser is almost certainly not, as guants are too short (though certain angles may allow it), wariors will though.

3. Remember line of sight isnt so much a line, but a cone, you have to draw a line to every single part of the target, so if you can go from your barrel to the botom of thier feet and it doesnt pass between your dudes then no save. If it does, even just the littlest bit, then save.

4. most definatly

5. The flamer would not have hit. The order of shooting attacks is Choose target>Check LOS>Check Range> roll to hit>roll to wound>saves>remove models. The range of a flamer is the template, so if the template cannot reach the target then it has been found to be out of range and you never go to the roll to hit stage (which the template has special rules for), and the shot is simply discarded.

6. The entire order of shooting attacks listed above was satisified for the target, anyone else under the template is hit regardless. Templates never give cover saves. Though i am suprised the tank had no LOS to the unit, remember if even a sliver of one model can be seen you may fire, and this is the rather big gap between the legs of most dreads.

7. Cant help you sorry.

[Grey Mage]

You might check out this site:

 

http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?

 

I dont frequent it myself, but one of my gaming buddies says its good.

[SeattleDV8]

#1 is Yes. BRB pg. 64. ".... use the vehicle rules to determine if each squadron member is in cover (snip) ... and then the rules of normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not."

In the case above if two of the vehicles are obscured the squadron as a whole gets the 4+ cover save.

 

And in the case of #2 & #3 you would determine cover from each weapon and if 50% or more of the weapons firing from one vehicle would grant cover , all the shots would gain a cover save.

Example: the turret has a clear view , but the two sponsons give cover.

The unit being shot at would get a cover save unless only the turret weapon fired, any other combo of weapons firing would grant a save.

[Pigeons]

5. The flamer would not have hit. The order of shooting attacks is Choose target>Check LOS>Check Range> roll to hit>roll to wound>saves>remove models. The range of a flamer is the template, so if the template cannot reach the target then it has been found to be out of range and you never go to the roll to hit stage (which the template has special rules for), and the shot is simply discarded.

 

 

 

i really don't get why this is so. i could understand it for a weapon that fires once, like say a bolter round, a lascannon shot or etc.

 

 

but for things that use templates, like flamers, barrage weapons, why WOULDN'T it hit targets you weren't aiming at?

 

 

the flamer for instance, whether it's in range is determined by the template itself, so you have to physically place it to determine range. if its short of your target but there's other enemy models under it, why wouldn't it hit them? the blast of flame is still there, realistically it'd hit them.

 

 

obviously though, even though a bolter shell COULD miss it's initial target but hit something else, there's no practical way to show this on the tabletop, and trying to would be tedious and ridiculous.

 

 

but with a template weapon it's fairly easy.

 

 

 

edit: by the way, i'm not even saying anyone is interpreting the rules wrong. it just seems like an oversight in the rules to me. like it should work the way i'm saying.

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg 17

Weapons that are out of range miss automatically

pg.29 template weapons use the template as it's range,

So if the target unit is out of range (ie not under the template ) the shot misses.

[Commander Sasha]

#1 is Yes. BRB pg. 64. ".... use the vehicle rules to determine if each squadron member is in cover (snip) ... and then the rules of normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not."

In the case above if two of the vehicles are obscured the squadron as a whole gets the 4+ cover save.

 

And in the case of #2 & #3 you would determine cover from each weapon and if 50% or more of the weapons firing from one vehicle would gain cover , all the shots would gain a cover save.

Example: the turret has a clear veiw , but the two sponsons give cover.

The unit being shot at would get a cover save unless only the turret weapon fired, any other combo of weapons firing would grant a save.

Question 1 definitely, as per the BRB.

 

2&3,though, are not covered in this section, as it says this is for vehicle squadrons being shotat, not shooting. I think I'll go with other posters' opinions that you draw LoS from each gun barrel, as per p58. Probably easier to put the laser pointer on the target's head, and point it at the tank to see if I can light up the barrel past the guardsmen.

 

Thanks for the replies guys!

[SeattleDV8]

Sorry if I wasn't clear I should have said #3 & #4.

The section I was refering to is also on pg. 58

"...work out if the target gets cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing model in a normal unit."

[dswanick]

1) If 2/3 of the squadron of 3 tanks are obscured, getting the 4+ save, is the third also, by the 'majority of unit in cover' rule? - Yes.

 

2) If he arranges his guardsmen around the squadron as a complete circle with 2" gaps between the men, does the tank get a cover save? Or do the men have to be so densely packed that you can only actually see <50% of the tank? Similarly, can a pair of gaunts hide a Carnifex, or does there have to be a dense pack of them to get the 50%? - See my thread here. Given your situation I'd be surprised if >50% of the line of fire passses between models in the unit, so probably not. But remmber, if in doubt Cover Save -1.

 

3)...and if his tank is surrounded by his own men, and he fires the turret at me, do I get a cover save because of his men? ( Line of Sight fires over their heads) - No, firing over area terrain or intervening units grants no cover save.

 

4)...and the same question but for the sponsons and hull-mounted guns, which are below head height on his human perimeter? - Unit fire, determine if the majority of shots grant cover saves as others have stated.

 

5) My scouts ran towards one of his tanks (a hound), after my Drop Dread had homed down behind them; he targetted the Dread with a heavy bolter, giving me an obscured save because of my scouts, but then fired a flamer aswell; the Dread was out of range of the template, but caught a few scouts; was this legal? The template was pointing directly at the Dread. - It's too early for me to think about this one. B)

 

6) My Dreadnought then overtook the scouts and stood in front of the tank. His Flamer bathed my Dread, no problem, but also caught a few scouts behind, to whom the tank had no line of sight; should they have been fried, and would they have got a save? - Nope, templates ignore cover save.

 

7) Apologies for non PA-question, but can anyone recommend a good Internet forum for Imperial Guard armies?

[bystrom]

but for things that use templates, like flamers, barrage weapons, why WOULDN'T it hit targets you weren't aiming at?

 

the flamer for instance, whether it's in range is determined by the template itself, so you have to physically place it to determine range. if its short of your target but there's other enemy models under it, why wouldn't it hit them? the blast of flame is still there, realistically it'd hit them.

 

obviously though, even though a bolter shell COULD miss it's initial target but hit something else, there's no practical way to show this on the tabletop, and trying to would be tedious and ridiculous.

 

but with a template weapon it's fairly easy.

 

edit: by the way, i'm not even saying anyone is interpreting the rules wrong. it just seems like an oversight in the rules to me. like it should work the way i'm saying.

 

I'll answer your question with a question :) When placing the template, you have to place it so that you hit the maximum number of models. That means whoever is firing the weapon knows what he's (or she) doing, including what range and spread the template weapon has. Ie. he sees that the dreadnought is out of range and doesn't fire, represented by checking range (ie. placing the template weapon down and seeing if you hit the target). Otherwise, you'd be forced to say before you place the template, that you're aiming it that many degrees in that direction relative straight forward etc. and it becomes too complicated, 'cus how is he supposed to know that firing it at just 17 degrees to the left is going to just hit five guys instead of firing it to the right, where he sees he'll easily hit four?

 

As for question number one, quote from the BBB:

Then he takes any cover saves available to the squadron - use the rules for vehicles to determine if each squadron member is in cover (ignoring other members of the squadron, as if they were not there), and then the rules for normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not.