JP Assault Marine "Hordes"

[kollar]

I remember reading a thread from way back about just how many bodies you could put in a marine force if you forego vehicles etc. So a small idea came to mind with our new dex. What about filling all those troop choices with maxsize Assault Squads, sprinkle some SP's and add a leader. Would it be viable? I did some fast calculations on paper, and came up with the fact that 6 Assault Squads of "standard" configuration (PF, 2 MG's, JP) would set me back just 1410 points. So after some fiddling around, this is an example list I came up with;

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=204071

 

The whole idea I had was to simply overwhelm enemies with lots and lots of assault marines. The above list is merely an example, has anyone had any success with fielding "horde" JP armies?

[daboarder]

doesnt work for Jump pack armies, they are exspensive and need support such as sang priests, speeders and raven's. they make nice elite armies but you need to selectively crush part of the force at a time.

[kollar]

doesnt work for Jump pack armies, they are exspensive and need support such as sang priests, speeders and raven's. they make nice elite armies but you need to selectively crush part of the force at a time.

 

If you followed the link I posted, you would have noted that I did stick some priests in there :rolleyes:.

[SamaNagol]

You'd need some support. They dont work unsupported.

 

Add in some Land Speeders for armour and a Jump Pack Librarian to stop nasty Psychic powers. Jump Pack DC to tie up nasty things.

[BlackSpike]

I have been considering this type of list.

 

What kind of support do you thing they need, and what kind of threats can the main JP horde not deal with?

My main tactic for any foe would be "Throw some JP troopers at it!"

 

Do the melta Guns and PF-assaulting-rear-armour not deal with Tanks well enough?

[SamaNagol]

You need to take out high strength template threats like Vindicators and Leman Russes before your Jump Packers appear, because Sanguinary Priests aren't helping you there. Dual Melta Speeders can get in there and take them out making the landing site *safer* for your Angels' descent.

[Isryion]

You need to take out high strength template threats like Vindicators and Leman Russes before your Jump Packers appear, because Sanguinary Priests aren't helping you there. Dual Melta Speeders can get in there and take them out making the landing site *safer* for your Angels' descent.

 

Deepstrike 5 man packs near enough to melta them? Good point about the use of locators/beacons, too.

[kollar]

You need to take out high strength template threats like Vindicators and Leman Russes before your Jump Packers appear, because Sanguinary Priests aren't helping you there. Dual Melta Speeders can get in there and take them out making the landing site *safer* for your Angels' descent.

 

I was actually not especially certain about deep striking them at all, deploying most of the troops on the board. Using LoS to avoid big template weapons, unless I can use my 18" melta range (24" without "melta") to at least shake or stun those vehicles. You can also combat squad the priest squads with LC sergeants and Priests and deepstrike 5man meltacide to drop those vehicles.

 

When expanding to 2250, you can just add Mephiston to the mix as well, and you got the hood support. I do agree that no hood would be very risky prior to that... especially against lash spam lists. I guess you could drop one of the Assault Squads for a JP Librarian and two Land Speeders with meltas? I just feel they are way to vulnerable compared to a priest supported Assault Squad.

[SamaNagol]

1500pts I would definitely take a Librarian with an Honour Guard, 2 Speeders, 3 SPs and 3 10 Man RAS and then whatever DC unit I could afford.

[wookielips]

a friend of mine in the local gaming club just got to ard boyz finals in chicago with this:

 

60xRAS

3xSP

2xlibbie (may only be one libbie)

3x predator (AC, 2XLC sponson)

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

if you drop those predators for some speeders you have yourself a decent flying circus list.

 

the only real reason to go all JP is if you want to consistently DS the entire army in my opinion, which means your support options are limited to speeders and if you want to stretch it, DP furiouso librarians.

[earemir]

I've used all jump pack armies recently with great success again very experienced players with Eldar Seer Council, IG Armored, SW Logan+Ragnar+LRC and Orks Nob Bikers: 4/1/0.

 

You can't just put Assault Marines; it's going to be the core of your army yes but is not enough. I usually use:

 

- Librarian with SS, SoS and UR, (SS Varguard/ SS Honorguard/Termie) squard as anvril and Furioso with Blood Talons in a Storm Raven.

- Vanguard to deal with Long Fangs, Lootas, etc. I love this unit. It's been very effective for me.

- 2 o 3 Sang Priests with Power Weapons and Jump Pack

- 4 Assault Squads: (1) 2 MG, IG, (2) 2MG, PW, (3) PF, (4) TH

 

Lately I've removed the furioso/libby to add Mephiston and I did well enough, now I want to try Sanguinor.

 

I think the secret is "focus assault":

- Try kill the enemy units one by one (starting with the hard ones)

- Don't charge every enemy unit at once, just one or maybe two if you know you can deal with it.

- Don't split your charges as much as possible. Never charge with just one unit. charge with one of your uber unit and some assault squads for support.

- We have the mobility to do that.

 

Regards,

Earemir.

[wookielips]

if you drop those predators for some speeders you have yourself a decent flying circus list.

 

speeders are one shot jonnies. predators in the backfield give you turn after turn fire support, and if they are worried about them and shooting at them, they aren't putting fire on the 60+ doods crossing the field.

[Andrew_Beck]

As mentioned, they need support. Notably characters (priests, chaplains and 1librarian) otherwise you will be horribly screwed. The FNP makes wonder.

[kollar]

I know they need support, especially Sanguinary Priests. I'm more wondering about the necessity of vehicles in such a list. By not taking vehicles you have effectively made the opponents heavy weapons "useless", as they will be shooting at a sub 20 point marine, rather than a 100+ point vehicle. By taking JP's, you ensure massive mobility even when shot at, as is not the case with Rhinos.

 

People here post that they need support in the form of SR's, Dreadnoughts and speeders. I then claim that you are reducing your army size quite substantially while giving the enemy a few armoured targets to shoot at. As you have now invested in those vehicles, they must be key to your battleplan. As you don't have many of them, making the choice to shoot at them not that hard. It would be all about target saturation here.

 

Assuming you take a 60 Assault Marine list, with attached supportive characters (Priests most notably), you should be in combat after one turn maximum, while also delivering melta wherever it's needed. I don't know much that can take out 60 Marines with FNP in one turn. Vindicators spring to mind as the most notable exception, but you should be able to make sure they hit at max one or two squads, and those squads should be in cover. As an example, it takes 20 bolter shots (fired by BS4) to kill one marine with PA and FNP. It takes 40(!) BS 3 lasgun shots to kill one marine. By investing in so many marines, you make sure that you will reach the enemy lines with a very sizeable force.

 

As an example, taking the following army from the Codex Marine forum, http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=204071 , and assuming that every ranged attack (in rapid fire range) in the army (non flamers, as we have JPs, and should not be caught by them) shoots a Space Marine from the force I printed above, with NO cover saves they cause a grand total of 12 casualities. If you add a 4+cover save, against the entire armys worth of shooting, we lose a grand total of 7 models. Just our meltaguns against his vehicles will take out way more points than that, and after that, it's close combat. Which is Blood Angels turf.

 

On the flipside, if I start adding vehicles to the army I posted, he can take out way more of my army in points value before I can hit him, which also means my Assault Squads are smaller when they do reach him, even if he doesn't shoot them, as I have to give up Assault Squads to buy vehicles. The equivalent of 12 marines (the casaulty list from the entire army getting shot out of cover) buys me a grand total of one Stormraven or three land speeders, or one Drop Pod Dread. All of which dies way easier than said 12 marines.

 

The list does have one weakness, as several have accurately pointed out. Pie plates. These would have to be overcome in different ways, such as combatsquading 5 man meltasquads and DS them close to them, while giving them a wide birth with the rest of the army.

[earemir]

I know they need support, especially Sanguinary Priests. I'm more wondering about the necessity of vehicles in such a list. By not taking vehicles you have effectively made the opponents heavy weapons "useless", as they will be shooting at a sub 20 point marine, rather than a 100+ point vehicle. By taking JP's, you ensure massive mobility even when shot at, as is not the case with Rhinos.

 

People here post that they need support in the form of SR's, Dreadnoughts and speeders. I then claim that you are reducing your army size quite substantially while giving the enemy a few armored targets to shoot at. As you have now invested in those vehicles, they must be key to your battleplan. As you don't have many of them, making the choice to shoot at them not that hard. It would be all about target saturation here.

 

Assault Squads are nice but they don't do enough damage to beat .. let's say nob bikers, thunder wolves, thunderhammer termies. There is where you need a "hammer" unit: vanguards, honor guard, termies, dreadnoughts and putting those in jump packs or use wing of sanguinius is bad. They are going to be focus fired to death. That's why in my case I use the SR to deliver the hammer units where I want ... and they always do. That said, I use mainly my SR as a transport and later in the game as a gunship.

 

Assuming you take a 60 Assault Marine list, with attached supportive characters (Priests most notably), you should be in combat after one turn maximum, while also delivering melta wherever it's needed. I don't know much that can take out 60 Marines with FNP in one turn. Vindicators spring to mind as the most notable exception, but you should be able to make sure they hit at max one or two squads, and those squads should be in cover. As an example, it takes 20 bolter shots (fired by BS4) to kill one marine with PA and FNP. It takes 40(!) BS 3 lasgun shots to kill one marine. By investing in so many marines, you make sure that you will reach the enemy lines with a very sizeable force.

 

You are right, they are going to survive the shoots, the main problem I have is when you are charged by units that are faster than you are. You are going to be charged easily: SW, Tyranids, Orks.

 

As an example, taking the following army from the Codex Marine forum, http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=204071 , and assuming that every ranged attack (in rapid fire range) in the army (non flamers, as we have JPs, and should not be caught by them) hits a Space Marine from the force I printed above, with NO cover saves they cause a grand total of 12 casualities. If you add a 4+cover save, against the entire armys worth of shooting, we lose a grand total of 7 models. Just our meltaguns against his vehicles will take out way more points than that, and after that, it's close combat. Which is Blood Angels turf.

 

Shooting is not a big problem as I said. Last saturday I faced and 6 warwalker list and they focus fired one 10 man assault squard with FNP and they only killed one marine.

 

On the flipside, if I start adding vehicles to the army I posted, he can take out way more of my army in points value before I can hit him, which also means my Assault Squads are smaller when they do reach him, even if he doesn't shoot them, as I have to give up Assault Squads to buy vehicles. The equivalent of 12 marines (the casaulty list from the entire army getting shot out of cover) buys me a grand total of one Stormraven or three land speeders, or one Drop Pod Dread. All of which dies way easier than said 12 marines.

 

The list does have one weakness, as several have accurately pointed out. Pie plates. These would have to be overcome in different ways, such as combatsquading 5 man meltasquads and DS them close to them, while giving them a wide birth with the rest of the army.

 

True, 2 meltaguns and 1 Inferno pistol is awesome as is the varguard against long fangs and lootas (I still need to try the anti tank combination).

[kollar]

Assault Squads are nice but they don't do enough damage to beat .. let's say nob bikers, thunder wolves, thunderhammer termies. There is where you need a "hammer" unit: vanguards, honor guard, termies, dreadnoughts and putting those in jump packs or use wing of sanguinius is bad. They are going to be focus fired to death. That's why in my case I use the SR to deliver the hammer units where I want ... and they always do. That said, I use mainly my SR as a transport and later in the game as a gunship.

 

That is actually why I stuck the Sanguinor in there. As he turns all those RAS into VAS (within the bubble of course). If that fails, you can combocharge them with several units and use weight of attacks to bring them down, can't you?

 

You are right in that I will be charged at times though. I guess you would just have to try and anticipate those situations, and feed them sacrifical combat squads to ensure you can countercharge them as well.

[BlessedSword]

That is actually why I stuck the Sanguinor in there. As he turns all those RAS into VAS (within the bubble of course). If that fails, you can combocharge them with several units and use weight of attacks to bring them down, can't you?

 

Depends on the build your facing, against Nobs Bikers or BA Assault Termis with SP, you'll have a hard time drowning them in attacks even with multiple units. With FNP and a 2+ save, it'll take 50 S4 attacks at WS4 to kill one assault termi on average. Ditto for Nob bikers due to T5, 4+ save, FNP, and 2 wounds/Nob.