2 x TLAC on dreads

[Brother Tual]

The rifleman seems to be the dread everyone is talking about at the moment. To be honest, I have never seen one used in a competative list so far and I cant see why anyone would. They are dead set in the middle of the road when it comes to dread loadout.

 

I cant see them doing anything well -

 

No combat ability - Str 10 at I4 is fantastic. I know.. only 2 attacks.. its not going to kill a mob.. blah blah blah... It will splat any IC without EW... most Ic's are in units...most IC's are targetable in combat... most IC's end up dead... As a tar pit... I dont want my dread stuck in combat. Winning by 2 each turn means more things die or end up running away...

 

Mid range - Assault cannon + heavy flamer - enough said

 

Light vehicles - TLLC + Missile launcher - 2xTLAC is slightly better vs AV 10 or 11 but how many rhinos are we killing per turn here? I am pretty sure its one...

 

I think an assault cannon is better in this role anyway, I know the TLAC has the range over an assault cannon... who cares? who shoots at transports that are over 24' away? shoot at something else and wait till next turn when they actually become a target priority... Most of your anti infantry guns work under 24' anyway... why get them out at 36' away? what have you achieved? I would rather them opened up and stranded in front of all my guns rather than with the rest of their own forces... the enemy objective just got that much harder to take...

 

Heavy armour... forget it... str7? TLLC + ML wins hands down... even the standard MM dread is better as it actually HAS a chance

 

VS heavy infantry... Str 7 doesnt insta kill and doesnt have a good AP... If you want this, Plasma cannon or vindicator... or use that DCCW!! heavy inifantry are often few in number so load them up with assault cannon shots and heavy flamer and moosh whats left...

 

VS light infantry at range... Ok... good choice... this is a good loadout.. A good missile blast will challenge it though but is this really what you want from your dread?

 

 

Does anyone actually use this dread? I have only seen it once and it was used by a DA player in a fluff list. The idea is fun, it has a mech warrior feel to it. Please explain to me though, of all the dread load outs, why would you want this one specifically? what do you want from it? what can it do that something else cant? Just why?

[Koremu]

War Walkers. Vypers. Land Speeders. Sentinels. Ork Kans. Ork more or less anything in fact.

 

Basically, if it's AV10 or 11 and comes in Squadrons, the Rifleman is your Dread. I just wish it had the Auto-Targetter that the Hydra has.

 

Also not bad at Deffkoptas and any other bikes that don't currently have a Cover Save or a 3+ Armour Save.

[Brother Tual]

The issue that I have with them is that I can get something cheaper (pred for arguments sake) that does the same role. Even a small sternguard unit with 2 x missile or 2 x lascannon seems to be a better choice..no?

 

I can see how they would provide good results vs those targets but are those targets really a serious threat beyond the range of an assault cannon? Maybe the war walkers or the vipers, but are those units actually common and in squadrons? I havent seen a Vyper squadron in a while...

 

Do you actually use a rifleman Koremu? I have no experience with them, I have used every other variation (except for MM varients) in tournament play and I find the AC+DCCW/HF the most effective and useful against anything really.. followed by AC + ML.

[Justicar Valius]

Rifleman slightly edges out the TLLC and ML against AV12 as well you know, so chimeras beware.

 

Also if all of them are dead there are always 4+ save infantry to shoot at.

[Jackelope King]

No combat ability - Str 10 at I4 is fantastic. I know.. only 2 attacks.. its not going to kill a mob.. blah blah blah... It will splat any IC without EW... most Ic's are in units...most IC's are targetable in combat... most IC's end up dead... As a tar pit... I dont want my dread stuck in combat. Winning by 2 each turn means more things die or end up running away...

You have range. This thing is a firebase unit, not a close-combat monster. You can shoot and shoot and shoot straight from turn one.

 

Mid range - Assault cannon + heavy flamer - enough said

Assault cannons on a slow platform fail hard. Now Blood Angels can stick them on fast Razorbacks, and they become effective to get side-armor shots with lots of rending hits... that's a good use. On a shooty dread? Heck no.

 

Light vehicles - TLLC + Missile launcher - 2xTLAC is slightly better vs AV 10 or 11 but how many rhinos are we killing per turn here? I am pretty sure its one...

Because it kills light armor cheaper and more reliably, and has a higher wound-potential against dismounted infantry. You're paying an extra 20 points for 50% fewer shots for increased effectiveness against AV12 plus... because you're allergic to Melta weaponry or something? Autocannons nicely compliment a melta-heavy army by alleviating target-saturation on your melta weaponry, allowing those weapons to focus on heavier armor.

 

VS heavy infantry... Str 7 doesnt insta kill and doesnt have a good AP... If you want this, Plasma cannon or vindicator... or use that DCCW!! heavy inifantry are often few in number so load them up with assault cannon shots and heavy flamer and moosh whats left...

I can do it from turn one reliably, or do it the turn after I blow the transport up, or after I've finished off an MC when I'm using an autocannon. Supremely versatile.

 

Does anyone actually use this dread? I have only seen it once and it was used by a DA player in a fluff list. The idea is fun, it has a mech warrior feel to it. Please explain to me though, of all the dread load outs, why would you want this one specifically? what do you want from it? what can it do that something else cant? Just why?

I run three in my Biker list as part of my firebase. It's versatile, able to target light armor and just about anything on foot from turn one, hit reliably, and pile on the hits, making it a fairly effective torrent unit to force lots of saves. The range means I'm shooting from turn one. And it's pretty cheap, mobile enough (for moving at the speed of a waddling dreadnought, at least it can walk around a piece of terrain during the game to target more distant threats if needed) and AV12 is tough enough that you need to dedicate some anti-vehicular weapons against it to be effective.

[Brother Tual]

You have range. This thing is a firebase unit, not a close-combat monster. You can shoot and shoot and shoot straight from turn one.

I get this. I understand. My concern is that anything that wants to rush you is going to be 24' away. Why do I need the extra range unless I am deploying in the corners or on my own base line? And even if I want to create as much disance as possible to gain more shooting time, I can walk an assault cannon dread backwards to the table edge as they approach..

 

Assault cannons on a slow platform fail hard. Now Blood Angels can stick them on fast Razorbacks, and they become effective to get side-armor shots with lots of rending hits... that's a good use. On a shooty dread? Heck no.

Fine, point taken. Side armour.. great. A rifleman cant do that either. Why take a rifleman? blood angles have fast razorbacks that can hit side armour... A landspeeder with an assault cannon can get rear armour with a deep strike. The point I was trying to make is that at mid range, the assault cannon + DCCW with HF is in its element. Its output at this range is far higher (per point) than anything else at this range and it has far more options in use than a flying razorback.

 

I can do it from turn one reliably, or do it the turn after I blow the transport up, or after I've finished off an MC when I'm using an autocannon. Supremely versatile.

Interesting.. I see something like a typhoon as versatile because it has the options to provide decent volume fire power OR direct high STR with ok AP because of the change or ability to change its weapon systems perfomance. You see the rifleman as versatile because you can shoot anything with it. Is the only reason why you dont like the AC because of its range?

 

Dont most MC's have a 3+ save or better?

 

Its good to see that they work for you. Do you always take them in 3? and do you only use them in your bike list?

[Slick Jimmy]

Rifleman Dreads are useful against a set type of opponent just like most other units. They happen to have excellent range the ability to kill most infantry, even if only by wound saturation, and light to medium vehicles. If you plan to gun line your marines they are a good choice to stand and deliver with the rest of your lads. If you are advancing with your whole army and closing for combat, a little less so. They really depend on the tactics you plan to run with your army.

[Brother Tual]

I am interested in the vehicles' use. I just dont see them used on the table. I have been to many tournaments and played many different armies and players with their own styles, yet I have never seen one in a competative list. I am not saying that that is a reason not to take them, I just want to know why and to hear from people who actually use them

[greatcrusade08]

I fully agree here, they are too middle of the road top be truely effective..

Against anything T4 or less you may aswell use the assault cannon as it wounds on twos just like the autocanons, sure your dropping the couple of shots but at least you have rending for those pesky power armoured dudes.

 

Light vehicles - TLLC + Missile launcher - 2xTLAC is slightly better vs AV 10 or 11 but how many rhinos are we killing per turn here? I am pretty sure its one...

Classic :lol:

But very true, unless your shooting at a squadron of speeders you may aswell go with the TLLC and ML, or just stick the with assault cannon.

 

I honestly believe your taking a dreadnought because of its close combat prowess otyherwise why not just take a dakka pred???

If thats the case then your gunna want to stick with the DCCW for those insta gibs on ICS and the ability to take down elite troops in CC.. infact if a unit comes close without a fist or hammer then im aiming for assault!!

 

I honestly believe the best load out for a dreadnought is the assault cannon, heavy flamer combo.. although the plasma cannon comes a close second

[Race Bannon]

Competition is a main factor and it kills the idea of variety.

 

The Rifleman is not a competitive choice because there are more optimal choices that provide better returns ... on average.

 

Competition is not bad, far from it. And even a "friendly" game is competitive, but on a different scale and level when a reward is attached beyond a declared winner.

[Justicar Valius]

If you think a TLLC + ML dread is actually worth it then you think the Rifleman is worth it. Rifleman outperfroms the TLLC + ML on AV10,11 and 12. Against anything higher you should be getting the melta there.

 

Auto cannon and lascannon sponson preds do well but excell due to increased number of lascannon shots.

[Jackelope King]

I honestly believe your taking a dreadnought because of its close combat prowess otyherwise why not just take a dakka pred???

You can't take a Dakka predator in your elites slot.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

In one game against Tau, I used a rifleman. He ignored it for the first two turns because, after all: "they're just autocannons." One dead Devilfish and half a squad of Fire Warriors later, he pounded it with railguns. A couple weeks later, I put down six dreadnoughts -- two venerables, one ironclad, one regular (with your vaunted AC/DCCW/HF), and one rifleman -- against the same guy. He had clear lines of fire from turn one against all of them with his railguns, and he felt threatened the most by the rifleman and fired every railgun he had at it until it died. That speaks volumes as to how frightening a rifleman can be.

[Brother Tual]

If you think a TLLC + ML dread is actually worth it then you think the Rifleman is worth it.

I dont. They are my least favourite dreads... I added them in my post because they are a dread...

[Giga]

Rifleman dreadnoughts rock, and they actually have their place in competitive play - especially in higher point values, such as 1850+, or ardboyz.

 

- They make short work of AV 10-11, and they can reliably damage AV12 (out of those 4 shots, at least one or two are going to score a glance or a penetrating against AV12). Above all, this means they're very reliable transport-killers. This is extremely important, as there are plenty of opponents nowadays (like space wolves, chaos marines, blood angels, orks, etc.) who like to pack their transports full of killy rapid fire/assault specialists. Being able to stun/destroy/immobilize their transports from as far away as 48" is a HUGE asset, as pwning their rides while they're still far away from your lines means you're effectively fragmenting their force, forcing them to come at you piecemeal rather then in an unified attack. By forcing them to vacate their transports, footslog, and suffer casualties from shooting, you're taking the fire out of their attack and taking away the punch out of their army.

 

- As far as tarpitting goes, riflemen can tarpit just as well as DCCW dreads can. Dreadnought close combat ability is pathetic as it is. With DCCW, on average, they're killing 1 MEQ per turn of assault. This makes it highly unlikely they're ever going to rout and sweep an enemy unit. Add to this the fact that their armor isn't all that great and that immobilized and stunned results are quite likely to happen, and the fact they're SLOW, means that dreads rarely if ever reach close combat. Sure, they can insta-kill ICs, but... What kind of a noob assaults dreadnoughts with non-eternalwarrior ICs, anyway?

 

- Against monstrous creatures and heavy infantry, riflemen have the ability to reliably pop wounds on them and force saves from 48" away. They have 3+ saves, but so what? You're likely to put 3-4 wounds on them per turn, which means they're also likely to fail some of those saves. This is especially great against static firebase units such as long fangs, lootas, combat squads, etc.

 

- Also, somebody mentioned predators. Predators are great, I absolutely love my combipred, I use it a lot. However, predators aren't perfect. For one, they can't move and keep shooting properly, which means you're less likely to get good lines of fire and even less likely to deny the cover save to your opponents. This means that reserving predators is often going to result in getting a lot less use out of them (and, as we all know, there are some times when reserving one's entire army is what wins games).

 

In addition, predators can't fight back in close combat, which also means they can't tarpit things, either. On the other hand, they have access to higher strength lower AP guns, but then these guns aren't twinlinked and hence not as reliable. My own personal opinion is that combipreds and riflemen dreadnought are on par with each other - two different support units that are both great in their own ways. Dakkapreds, on the other hand, are a completely different matter and can't really be compared to riflemen dreadnoughts.

 

- Comparing the riflemen to other dreadnoughts, I can seriously see no other dread variant in the vanilla dex that is anywhere near as effective as the riflemen. The standard asscannon/multimelta+dccw+hf variants need extra armor to be effective, meaning they cost more then riflemen, while being ineffective for their points (I'd much rather spend points on more speeders, or more attack bikes, or more sternguard, etc.). TL-lascannon variants are better, but then the TL-lascannon costs 3 times as much as the TL-autocannon. Missile launcher I just don't think is any good due to the sheer unreliability. I've fought against pretty much every single dreadnought variant (although I'm the only guy at my club who uses riflemen), and have never been too worried about them, and the standard gun+dccw dreads scare me the least.

 

 

 

BTW, finished converting and priming the first of my riflemans today (I want to have a pair). I'm so happy with how it turned out I just might end up painting it as soon as today. Can't wait to get him on the battlefield and stop proxying them. :tu:

[Chengar Qordath]

On the topic of why the Rifleman dreadnought seems to be relatively rare in army lists, I suspect that has more to do with the fact that it requires a fair amount of conversion work and/or buying extra parts since the dreadnought kit does not come with a pair of autocannon arms.

 

I agree with the other posters that the Rifleman dreadnought really shines in a transport-heavy environment or against other armies that rely on lots of lightly-armored vehicles.

[KhorneHunter57x]

I have used a Rifleman dread and it is one of my favorite Elite choices. It is excellent against Eldar (both flavors), Ork, and Rhino Rush armies, and it can be useful against IG, 'Nid, and Tau. I usually use it to shred a transport and then Whirlwind the (usually clustered together) contents. The key to using the Rifle Dread is synergy with the rest of your army. It is not a war-winner by itself, but it is a powerful anti-APC addition to any otherwise balanced force.

 

Another version that I have been considering using is a TL Autocannon/Assault Cannon Dreadnought. It combines the sheer dakka of the Assault Cannon with the already good TL Auto, and the two weapons seem to go well together at 24" or less. What do you think?

[DarkGuard]

On the topic of why the Rifleman dreadnought seems to be relatively rare in army lists, I suspect that has more to do with the fact that it requires a fair amount of conversion work and/or buying extra parts since the dreadnought kit does not come with a pair of autocannon arms.

 

I'd agree with you there. Have been wanting to try one out for a while but only recently got the parts, using the autocannons from the aegis line for it.

 

As for why I'm now using one, I was lacking some long range anti-tank, a lascannon on a Dread is all right, but I reckon this will be more reliable with its higher rate of fire. When I use it a couple of times I'll let you know more of what I think about it.

[DerekLee688]

The importance of range in a Space marine army can't be overstated. Yes most things that can kill a dread can get within 24", but I'm more concerened with the things that the other guy doesn't want to move forward. Lootas are a great example.

 

I make use of a rifleman's other two qualities, armor and mobility, to cover the side armor of my vinicator. Because if I'm going to run 550pts. of vehicles instead of Hammernators in a LR, then I need to match up groups that travel well with each other. A rifledread next to a combi pred, or next to a vindicator.

[Corby]

Where do you get the 2 TLAC? I'm curious as I have 3 dreads I'm reconfiguring and after reading this thread 2 shall be riflemen.

[mowglie]

Either from the Aegis defense line, or convert them from other dred arms. You can make a pretty convincing autocannon out of plasticard + the bit from the middle of a disposable pen.

[Corby]

thanks for the adivce. Was actually just looking through bits box and found several Predater autocannon turret parts. Time to try my hand at converting.............

[Jackelope King]

Either from the Aegis defense line, or convert them from other dred arms. You can make a pretty convincing autocannon out of plasticard + the bit from the middle of a disposable pen.

I used the Aegis Defense Line for my three Rifleman Dreads. Pretty straight-forward conversion with magnets.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Brother Tual: I did use to have a dislike for Rifleman Dreads, until I got owned by one and witnessed another game where it had alot of impact.

 

Thing is it won't fit into every list. If you have substantial heavy weaponary hanging back plus some Transport borne infantry moving forward/between the gunline and enemy, it becomes useful as it's primary weakness is offset (being stuck in assault). The list I faced had a Thunderfire Cannon, Combat squaded Tactical squad with Missile Launcher, Dread with TLC and 2 Typhoons, plus the Rifleman. The Rifleman put alot of pain on my Dreads and Rhinos with little chance of me replying for a few turns as I moved into my own range (medium range).

 

For that reason I take alot of Lascannons in my lists to have a reply!

 

Whilst I feel it looks average on paper, it does have a strong element often not considered. When rolling to penetrate armour on a vehicle luck and probability always play a factor. If you need a 5+ or 6+ to damage the target, you have a much better chance if you roll 4 dice to do that right? ;) You can expect 3-4 shots to hit every turn with a Rifleman, and that is a small handful of dice to play the odds in your favour.

 

The next thing that plays into the Rifleman's favour is the range. Whilst it is true most games end up very close ranged affairs, if you meet the opponent in the middle you can have a vehicle safely away from this killzone and still have it contribute.

 

Thing is, I have been considering a variant of the Rifleman, named the Heavy Gunner. Using the same principle as the Rifleman, only armed with an Assault Cannon and Twin-linked autocannon. It operates at closer range than the Rifleman, but is able to support an army with more firepower each turn. Remember that a 6 on an Assault cannon is better than a 6 on a S7 autocannon.

 

This Dread fits into an army geared for closer ranged engagement without too much trouble, as at such close ranges the opponent often has too much to worry about to concentrate on a 125pts Dread.

 

I was considering also that this model as a Venerable Dread is fiendish, as the amount of hits you can put on units is huge. Of course that is alot of points. ^_^

[KhorneHunter57x]

As I said above, I too have been considering the "Heavy Gunner." I think it would be a good balance between range, number of shots, and accuracy, and I have been working on a conversion bit for my Ven Dread for just this purpose.

Where do you get the 2 TLAC? I'm curious as I have 3 dreads I'm reconfiguring and after reading this thread 2 shall be riflemen.

You can also ask any IG players in the area if they have any spare ACs. Although they are one of the more popular Heavy Weapons for the IG, and with the popularity of the Hydra Flak Tank you might have trouble finding an IG player who has any spare, the new Leman Russ has a pretty cool looking TL Autocannon option, so you might try asking someone who just got that kit and who doesn't plan on using that bit.