2 x TLAC on dreads

[Captain Idaho]

Sorry, read your post whilst at work and was trying to be "discreet" so as not to get caught and must have just rushed through it! You did say it first! :)

 

So have you used the Venerable version yet or just building it? I think it can work well enough as a standard Dreadnought, mind.

[Koremu]

So have you used the Venerable version yet or just building it? I think it can work well enough as a standard Dreadnought, mind.

I don't personally think that the Venerable ability alone is worth the points, and there's little point in the increased BS on an already Twin-Linked weapon.

 

That and the range of the Autocannon usually keeps the rifleman safe enough from harm - especially if you are sensible and use it with some close support backup.

[Captain Idaho]

Normally but we are now talking about the Heavy Gunner ;)

 

Though I still think I would prefer my Venerable Dreads to take advantage of their increased WS as well as BS.

[Koremu]

The range bands don't match up well either.

[DarkGuard]

From what I see the whole point of using a rifleman Dread is to get firepower out to threaten light transports at long ranged. With 4 S7 twin-linked shots they can do this, as their shots will hit and from a long range. Remove one for an assault cannon and yeah, more shots that can threaten the same targets, but you are no longer operating from that 'safe range', and are liable to get taken out by melta etc.

 

IMO if you want to take an assault cannon you're better off taking a heavy flamer for the close assault reassurance.

[Captain Idaho]

True. But the Heavy Gunner works as a close support weapons platform, rather than a long range support weapon. The extra range on the Autocannon is not needed, as it operates at just behind the attack force.

 

Would that be the type of alternative you would prefer Brother Taul?

[DarkGuard]

True. But the Heavy Gunner works as a close support weapons platform, rather than a long range support weapon. The extra range on the Autocannon is not needed, as it operates at just behind the attack force.

 

Would that be the type of alternative you would prefer Brother Taul?

 

Exactly, so if it's close support wouldn't the assurance of a DCCW and possibly heavy flamer be more useful than a couple of S7 shots? If I'm using a Dreadnought up close or as a counter unit I'd prefer to have a DCCW/heavy flamer with an assault cannon. If I'm using a Dread at range and away from assault I'd prefer to give him a couple of autocannons or a missile launcher.

[Captain Idaho]

True. But the Heavy Gunner works as a close support weapons platform, rather than a long range support weapon. The extra range on the Autocannon is not needed, as it operates at just behind the attack force.

 

Would that be the type of alternative you would prefer Brother Taul?

 

Exactly, so if it's close support wouldn't the assurance of a DCCW and possibly heavy flamer be more useful than a couple of S7 shots? If I'm using a Dreadnought up close or as a counter unit I'd prefer to have a DCCW/heavy flamer with an assault cannon. If I'm using a Dread at range and away from assault I'd prefer to give him a couple of autocannons or a missile launcher.

 

Probably. I am just spit balling ideas here.

 

I would imagine though that the Heavy Gunner is operating around 20" away and targetting the transports you need to pop so your assault force can kill those inside. A heavy flamer cannot do that and a single Assault cannon will struggle, whilst 6 shots (2 Twinlinked the other 4 rending) can perform this role.

[RayJ]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned actually ordering the Mortis pattern autocannon arms from ForgeWorld. I've got a full set of Mortis and standard weapons arms for two of my dreadnoughts, and a couple more for my third.

 

What I'm waiting for is the update to DA which will give them codex access to the TLLC Mortis. All the long-range anti-tank firepower of the modern godhammer for about 100 points less. I've used this in fun games, and I think it rocks more than the rifleman, especially against tyranids.

[KhorneHunter57x]

Captain Idaho: I have not tried it yet, but I am in the process of converting the Hurricane Bolter arm from the Ironclad into a left-armed TL Autocannon, so I can put it on my Venerable for the "Heavy Gunner" (don't you think we should come up with a cooler name for this variant? "Harker Entombed?" "Punisher Dreadnought?" "AutoAssault?") or on my Ironclad to use it as a normal Dread.

 

From what I see the whole point of using a rifleman Dread is to get firepower out to threaten light transports at long ranged. With 4 S7 twin-linked shots they can do this, as their shots will hit and from a long range. Remove one for an assault cannon and yeah, more shots that can threaten the same targets, but you are no longer operating from that 'safe range', and are liable to get taken out by melta etc.

 

IMO if you want to take an assault cannon you're better off taking a heavy flamer for the close assault reassurance.

Although you do lose some of the long-ranged ability, with the Assault Cannon you gain a bit more versatility, as you can gun down hordes more effectively and even threaten AV 14 in emergencies.

 

However, your concerns are valid. Also, due to the shorter operating ranges, you opponent is more likely to be able to tie you up in assault.

 

The reason I would consider taking it as a Venerable is not only because of the higher BS for the Assault Cannon, but for increased survivability. Any shooty Dreadnought, be it a Rifleman, AutoAssault, or ML/TLLC, is a big target for your opponent. Venerability helps a bit, and I think it is worth it.

[DarkGuard]

I would imagine though that the Heavy Gunner is operating around 20" away and targetting the transports you need to pop so your assault force can kill those inside. A heavy flamer cannot do that and a single Assault cannon will struggle, whilst 6 shots (2 Twinlinked the other 4 rending) can perform this role.

 

The problem then is that at 20" away the transports containing the troops you want to stop reaching your lines are already half way across the board. At that sort of range you're better off using melta on Attack Bikes and the like to pop any sort of vehicle, not a Dreadnought. I understand why it could be used, and how it is supporting an armoured assault, but I just feel that the rifleman would do it better, you don't need to be standing next to an armoured assault to support it.

 

KhorneHunter57x you do make a good point in the Assault Cannon being able to threaten AV14, but as we all know this is unlikely and relies quite a lot on luck. Also, why would you be shooting AV14 with this? You'd just be wasting the autocannon. For this role of taking on infantry, vehicles and the odd AV transport the DCCW helps more, 3 S10 attacks on AV14 could do something.

 

Maybe it's just the armies and all that, but I have enough close ranged anti-tank with 2 Vindies, a plasma gun and 3 multi-meltas in my list (plus grenades and power fists), so for me a rifleman Dread is a much better choice, giving me a longer range to my anti-vehicular firepower. 40K isn't in vacuum, so if it works and if it fills a gap in your army the Heavy Gunner could be viable. I just feel though that the extremes are better, ie. rifleman or assault cannon/DCCW.

[Captain Idaho]

The reason I came up with Heavy Gunner is the play on words with the Rifleman. The Rifleman is a tribute to Mechwarrior I believe, whilst the heavy gunner is a typical variant of a rifleman in military terms etc.

 

I'm game for a more cool sounding name, just as long it is appropriately witty :lol:

[Race Bannon]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e241/zenidi/adr-04-mk10.jpg

 

Battletech = Rifleman

 

Robotech/Macross = Defender

 

^_^

 

Just throwing that out there. I think "Rifleman" dread, although simple, is very appropriate. "Heavy Gunner" works for me as well though. :)

[Brother_Dan'l]

Thing is, I have been considering a variant of the Rifleman, named the Heavy Gunner. Using the same principle as the Rifleman, only armed with an Assault Cannon and Twin-linked autocannon. It operates at closer range than the Rifleman, but is able to support an army with more firepower each turn. Remember that a 6 on an Assault cannon is better than a 6 on a S7 autocannon.

The Assault Cannon's "6" is only better 66% of the time against AV13 targets. And while that's a very solid percentage how much of it is negated by the two feet of extra range available to the Autocannon? It might be a good 6 or even 8%! Besides, the Assault Cannon with Autocannons is a visually dorky combo. ;)

 

The Rifleman is great because it's cheaper than the Las/Msl and has twice as many shots. I also really enjoy how little cover it takes to provide a save compared to tanks. And with Cover Saves on nearly every long range shot I'll take a S7 hit over a saved S8/9 any day of the week. Playing Blood Angels makes it a little tougher decision since the Rifleman is a HS and so directly competes with a Fast Predator. Then again it's 15 points cheaper than a Predator with Las sponsons and is always able to bring it's full weight of fire to bear. And with all the DS, Scouting and Out Flanking going on these days I like the extra point of side armor and the WS + AV12 in CC a lot more than I like an 18" non-shooting movement.

 

And I don't know about the folks you play against, but the ability to put multiple hits on light vehicles (DE Raiders, Ork Trukks & Buggies, Vypers, Land Speeders, Sentinels, Piranhas, etc), particularly squadrons, is a godsend for me.

 

Quick edit: Race Bannon is probably correct that the Macross name is more apropos since the BattleTech Rifleman used lasers and autocannon. But I'm not changing Brother Dreadnought Lucas's name to Minmay for any amount of money.

Lucas... Rifleman... Get it? :)

[Captain Idaho]

Rifleman is very appropriate to a quad Autocannon Dread, but I was referring the Heavy Gunner thing to an Assault Cannon/Twin Autocannon Dread, for the reasons above.

 

And I don't know about the folks you play against, but the ability to put multiple hits on light vehicles (DE Raiders, Ork Trukks & Buggies, Vypers, Land Speeders, Sentinels, Piranhas, etc), particularly squadrons, is a godsend for me.

 

Definitely. The extra 2 shots of the Heavy Gunner should surely play up to this philosophy though?

[Jackelope King]

And I don't know about the folks you play against, but the ability to put multiple hits on light vehicles (DE Raiders, Ork Trukks & Buggies, Vypers, Land Speeders, Sentinels, Piranhas, etc), particularly squadrons, is a godsend for me.

 

Definitely. The extra 2 shots of the Heavy Gunner should surely play up to this philosophy though?

Not when you're only getting two of those shots on turn 1 instead of four shots.

[DarkGuard]

And I don't know about the folks you play against, but the ability to put multiple hits on light vehicles (DE Raiders, Ork Trukks & Buggies, Vypers, Land Speeders, Sentinels, Piranhas, etc), particularly squadrons, is a godsend for me.

 

Definitely. The extra 2 shots of the Heavy Gunner should surely play up to this philosophy though?

Not when you're only getting two of those shots on turn 1 instead of four shots.

 

Exactly. The whole point of the Rifleman is to take out transports, Land Speeders etc first turn, which it's able to do with multiple, accurate high strength shots along with range and the ability to move and fire. The Heavy Gunner cannot replace the Rifleman in this role, and up at 24" you're better off with the DCCW/HF IMO.

[Brother_Dan'l]

Rifleman is very appropriate to a quad Autocannon Dread, but I was referring the Heavy Gunner thing to an Assault Cannon/Twin Autocannon Dread, for the reasons above.

 

And I don't know about the folks you play against, but the ability to put multiple hits on light vehicles (DE Raiders, Ork Trukks & Buggies, Vypers, Land Speeders, Sentinels, Piranhas, etc), particularly squadrons, is a godsend for me.

 

Definitely. The extra 2 shots of the Heavy Gunner should surely play up to this philosophy though?

Not when you're only getting two of those shots on turn 1 instead of four shots.

 

I wasn't commenting on the "Heavy Gunner", though that doesn't exactly sing to me, but that in Macross the quad gun arm destroid is called a Defender while in BattleTech the Mech is a Rifleman. And the Defender is the one where the four guns are the same type.

 

The Assault Cannon plus Autocannon mix is half as effective as a Rifleman till the range closes to 24". And at that point it's only slightly more effective since it doesn't get re-rolls on those additional shots. Sure Rending is nice. But if Rending is the only way you are going to hurt that unit you may want to rethink your targeting priorities. And if the only things left on the table are your shooty dreadnought and a Land Raider you can probably kiss your tail goodbye regardless.

[Koremu]

If I were mixing weapons on a Dread I'd think about a Thor - TLLC (Lightning) and TLAC (Thunder) :)

[Fetterkey]

I frequently use Dreadnoughts with TLAC and DCCW w/ built-in storm bolter to good effect. Dual TLACs seem to take away a lot of versatility.

[Arikel]

I'm thinking that maybe the heavy gunner type would work best if you drop pod it in first turn right in front of your opponents advance. That way you'd still be shooting from turn one, though likley it would get taken out fairly quick unless it has other deep striker or infiltrator support. Maybe cc scouts with a fist to rush the first thing that rushes the dread?

[Chengar Qordath]

I frequently use Dreadnoughts with TLAC and DCCW w/ built-in storm bolter to good effect. Dual TLACs seem to take away a lot of versatility.

Being a jack of all trades also means being a master of none. Sometimes a unit with a narrower focus is a better one.

[DarkGuard]

I'm thinking that maybe the heavy gunner type would work best if you drop pod it in first turn right in front of your opponents advance. That way you'd still be shooting from turn one, though likley it would get taken out fairly quick unless it has other deep striker or infiltrator support. Maybe cc scouts with a fist to rush the first thing that rushes the dread?

 

Then why not drop in a MM/HF combo or even an Ironclad with MG/HF? Both can easily get in range of infantry or tanks first turn, and heavy flamers are brilliant against infantry while meltas can more reliably take out tanks due to the melta rule and AP1. The Drop Pod's guiding also means you can easily get where you want. The MM/HF Dread would also be cheaper than the heavy gunner, while the Ironclad would be more survivable with AV13.

 

 

And I can't agree with you enough Chengar Qordath. Apart from a couple of units in my lists (normally Tactical Squads which can never be a master of one trade), I tend to specialize my units, hence why the rifleman appeals to me being able to shoot down enemy transports.

[Corby]

I frequently use Dreadnoughts with TLAC and DCCW w/ built-in storm bolter to good effect. Dual TLACs seem to take away a lot of versatility.

Being a jack of all trades also means being a master of none. Sometimes a unit with a narrower focus is a better one.

 

 

Quoting Chengar Qordath as that rhymes!

[Brother Tual]

good comments here guys. Its good to see some posts from people who use this load out - very interesting.

 

So far the rifleman has had alot of praise in its ability to take out armour, albeit light armour. I appreciate this as the mech list is a strong build but it seems to be the only role that it can take... I bet anything at range is taking cover saves or has a 3+

 

I like the standard AC/HF/DCCW because it performs best where tactical marines perform best and it supports them perfectly.

 

I like the AC/ML over the 'heavy gunner' as it can lay down some great hitting power (4 shots + template) at the same range that my marines opperate in. The ML compliments the AC just aswell when busting up light to medium armour.

 

Something I disagree with is the value of busting a transport at a long distance. It is much easier to do it up close. A mobile list makes a mockery of range and is able to use short range very very effectively.

 

I think the key point that has been raised here, is that a dread is the perfect option to fill a gap or to add to a strength in a list. It just depends on what you prefer. I always open aggressively so I prefer the aggressive dread to draw first blood. The rifleman seems to provide a crippling blow to set up a death blow from something else in the list.