2 x TLAC on dreads

[Jackelope King]

Something I disagree with is the value of busting a transport at a long distance. It is much easier to do it up close. A mobile list makes a mockery of range and is able to use short range very very effectively.

That's why you do it on turn 1, before the other guy is in your face, and that's why the range is so valuable. A mech list that has its transports blown out from under it turns into a slightly lower point-value gunline list ;)

[DarkGuard]

So far the rifleman has had alot of praise in its ability to take out armour, albeit light armour. I appreciate this as the mech list is a strong build but it seems to be the only role that it can take... I bet anything at range is taking cover saves or has a 3+

 

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Something I disagree with is the value of busting a transport at a long distance. It is much easier to do it up close. A mobile list makes a mockery of range and is able to use short range very very effectively.

 

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I think the key point that has been raised here, is that a dread is the perfect option to fill a gap or to add to a strength in a list. It just depends on what you prefer. I always open aggressively so I prefer the aggressive dread to draw first blood. The rifleman seems to provide a crippling blow to set up a death blow from something else in the list.

 

The rifleman's chief targets should be light vehicles, 4 TL S7 shots will make a mess of any AV11 vehicle. However, it can also be pretty effective against infantry, especially if you run them in pairs. Consider 8 TL S7 shots against a Tau Fire Warrior unit..... Even if infantry are in cover or have 3+ saves you're wounding most infantry on 2s, and are therefore forcing a lot of saves. I'd imagine they're not to shabby against MCs as well.

 

The value of busting a transport at range is the fact that doing so will leave your opponents killy unit in his deployment zone. If you're busting the transport up close then that unit is already probably at mid table or in your deployment zone, unless you're podding in melta units such as Sternguard or Dreadnoughts. Consider this. Rhino with Bezerkers in your opponents army. Would you prefer to take out their transport first turn long ranged anti-tank, stranding them there and forcing them to footslog while your anti-infantry weapons pour fire on them? Or would you prefer to only take them out when they reach your lines, which is where they need to be to do damage? I know which one I would prefer.

 

I fully agree with you on your last point. Lists are different for everyone and are personal in a sense. They reflect the units people like, the way they play and the units they use to play that way. For some a MM/HF Dread in a pod will be more useful than a rifleman, and that's fine ;)

[Koremu]

Something I disagree with is the value of busting a transport at a long distance. It is much easier to do it up close. A mobile list makes a mockery of range and is able to use short range very very effectively.

You obviously don't face Eldar often enough. Not only is it very difficult to dictate range against Eldar, they also have a lot of non-transport units which are prime targets for an AC.

[Captain Idaho]

The Rifleman was pretty much invented by GW to enable Marines to fight Eldar and Dark Eldar!

[Jackelope King]

You obviously don't face Eldar often enough. Not only is it very difficult to dictate range against Eldar, they also have a lot of non-transport units which are prime targets for an AC.

The Rifleman was pretty much invented by GW to enable Marines to fight Eldar and Dark Eldar!

Haha, seriously. A trio of Rifleman Dreads is what makes my time against Mechdar so much easier.

[Chengar Qordath]

You obviously don't face Eldar often enough. Not only is it very difficult to dictate range against Eldar, they also have a lot of non-transport units which are prime targets for an AC.

The Rifleman was pretty much invented by GW to enable Marines to fight Eldar and Dark Eldar!

Haha, seriously. A trio of Rifleman Dreads is what makes my time against Mechdar so much easier.

They're great against Dark Eldar Raider lists too; take away their mobility and almost all their Dark Lances and Disintegrators and Dark Eldar become much less dangerous.

[Koremu]

Are Dark Lances 36" Range like Bright ones?

[DarkGuard]

Are Dark Lances 36" Range like Bright ones?

 

Yes they are. Quite handy as we have a 48" range on rifleman Dreads. Of course, in one turn they can jump 12" and still fire, so that range difference doesn't mean much. A Dark Eldar Raider list will have about 7 Raiders and a couple of Ravagers, so I'd imagine only a couple would fall before the riflemans are destroyed.

[Chengar Qordath]

Are Dark Lances 36" Range like Bright ones?

Yeah, Dark Lances are just Bright Lances with a different name, while Disintegrators have the same statline as a plasma cannon. Since both these weapons are easily spammed and mounted on fast vehicles, a Rifleman is one of the best options you have for swatting them down.

[Koremu]

Are Dark Lances 36" Range like Bright ones?

 

Yes they are. Quite handy as we have a 48" range on rifleman Dreads. Of course, in one turn they can jump 12" and still fire, so that range difference doesn't mean much. A Dark Eldar Raider list will have about 7 Raiders and a couple of Ravagers, so I'd imagine only a couple would fall before the riflemans are destroyed.

 

Still means we get first shot.

 

Yeah, Dark Lances are just Bright Lances with a different name, while Disintegrators have the same statline as a plasma cannon. Since both these weapons are easily spammed and mounted on fast vehicles, a Rifleman is one of the best options you have for swatting them down.

 

Also, Typhoons :rolleyes:

[Fetterkey]

I frequently use Dreadnoughts with TLAC and DCCW w/ built-in storm bolter to good effect. Dual TLACs seem to take away a lot of versatility.

Being a jack of all trades also means being a master of none. Sometimes a unit with a narrower focus is a better one.

 

We're Space Marines, not Eldar. Versatile units are kind of our "thing."

[Brother_Dan'l]

So Dreadnoughts that can kill light to medium armor and any form of infantry aren't versatile? :D

 

The only place the Rifleman falls short is anti-horde. But the only SM Dreadnoughts that do well in the horde killer role are Frag Cannon/Heavy Flamer Furiosos and probably triple Heavy Flamer regular dreadnoughts. Well, hordes and dealing with AV14. But I've yet to see a decent marine army that didn't have some good AV14 hunting ability. Though it does bring back memories of a dumb slob who fielded nothing but plasma and ended up losing his whole army to a pair of Land Raider Redeemers. :lol:

[Brother Tual]

before the other guy is in your face, and that's why the range is so valuable.

unless you want the same thing... It depends on your enemy I suppose but most things that come out of an AV11 or 10 transport are not going to be combat powerhouses.. most of these things come from land raiders or battle wagons. If it is not a combat unit, I want it close and in the open. It also means I dont have to run across the table to them...

 

You obviously don't face Eldar often enough. Not only is it very difficult to dictate range against Eldar, they also have a lot of non-transport units which are prime targets for an AC.

Eldar is the primary army that I play against - trying to out gun them or out range them is a waste of time. Eldar are a special kind of beast to play against. I can see much much better units to take over a pair of rifleman dreads to counter any threats from eldar armour AND troops.

[Fetterkey]

So Dreadnoughts that can kill light to medium armor and any form of infantry aren't versatile? :P

 

Mortis Dreadnoughts are useful in two out of three phases (movement and shooting) and in an extreme pinch (or vs. Orks/Dark Eldar) they can be useful in the third. TLAC/DCCW Dreadnoughts are useful in all three phases. I'm not saying the Mortis Dreadnought is bad-- it should be pretty obvious at this point that it is a competitively valid choice-- but I think that you are definitely sacrificing versatility in taking one.

[Jackelope King]

So Dreadnoughts that can kill light to medium armor and any form of infantry aren't versatile? :P

 

Mortis Dreadnoughts are useful in two out of three phases (movement and shooting) and in an extreme pinch (or vs. Orks/Dark Eldar) they can be useful in the third. TLAC/DCCW Dreadnoughts are useful in all three phases. I'm not saying the Mortis Dreadnought is bad-- it should be pretty obvious at this point that it is a competitively valid choice-- but I think that you are definitely sacrificing versatility in taking one.

There's a difference here, and I think I finally put my finger on it, Fretterkey. "Versatility" is a bad word. Let's instead use "duality", which means that a unit can effectively threaten several types of enemy units. The Heavy Flamer / Multimelta Landspeeder is a great example: it can pop the heaviest tank and roast most types of infantry, and it does them both from a similar range increment. The Rifleman Dread sits in this area, as it can reliably, from turn one, pop light transports, threaten Monstrous Creatures, and whittle down foot infantry.

 

And then there's "stupid pet tricks". I call it that because if you've ever seen someone who's trained their dog to stand and dance around on its hind legs has actually done serious damage to that animal's hips and predisposed the animal to serious injury. When you ignore your units' strength in favor of, in theory, letting it do something extra that isn't necessarily beneficial, but might let you do something if you need a Hail Mary pass.

 

Why is using a DCCW on a Dreadnought with a twin-linked autocannon a stupid pet trick? Because you have about the third best range in the game with that twin-linked autocannon, which significantly increases the Dread's durability (the enemy probably needs to close with your Dread to threaten it, while your Dread can just waddle around and threaten most foes). Throwing that DCCW on instead of a second twin-linked autocannon halves this threat. You've literally cut an arm off, and you're only doing half of that damage at range. And now you can... take two S10 attacks per turn in melee. And that autocannon becomes useless while also increasing your risk (you're necessarily closer to the enemy even if the enemy doesn't have a power fist or some similar way to mess up your Dread, so you might catch melta up the exhaust pipe when the melee ends).

 

Note: if you instead meant a twin-linked assault cannon instead of an autocannon when you said TLAC, this is not as much of a stupid pet trick. The assault cannon has a shorter range, so you're more likely to need that DCCW, as you're more likely to be going full-ahead waddle at the enemy. That said, I don't think assault cannons belong on slow units. They belong on Fast vehicles. Blood Angels, for instance, can get twin-linked assault cannon Razorbacks pretty cheaply, and their Razorbacks are fast, and thus pretty good at zooming around and getting shots on the side armor of enemy vehicles, where they're more likely to score penetrating hits. Dreadnoughts... don't. They're slow and have a harder time getting side-armor shots. So for my close-support dreads, I'll stick with dirt-standard Dreads (maybe upgrading the storm bolter to a heavy flamer).

[Brother_Dan'l]

So Dreadnoughts that can kill light to medium armor and any form of infantry aren't versatile? :blush:

 

Mortis Dreadnoughts are useful in two out of three phases (movement and shooting) and in an extreme pinch (or vs. Orks/Dark Eldar) they can be useful in the third. TLAC/DCCW Dreadnoughts are useful in all three phases. I'm not saying the Mortis Dreadnought is bad-- it should be pretty obvious at this point that it is a competitively valid choice-- but I think that you are definitely sacrificing versatility in taking one.

There's very little loss in my army and I think that may color my perception. With Blood Angels I bring the Rifleman as a Heavy Support so it competes with tanks. I can still bring DCCW armed Dreadnoughts in other slots. In other SM armies having only Elite slots for Dreadnoughts I might agree that guns only isn't generally the best choice.

[Koremu]

You obviously don't face Eldar often enough. Not only is it very difficult to dictate range against Eldar, they also have a lot of non-transport units which are prime targets for an AC.

Eldar is the primary army that I play against - trying to out gun them or out range them is a waste of time. Eldar are a special kind of beast to play against. I can see much much better units to take over a pair of rifleman dreads to counter any threats from eldar armour AND troops.

Errr... what? Eldar armies are notoriously short ranged. Most of their weaponry stops at 36". And it's perfectly practical to outgun them at range - Land Speeder Typhoons and Rifleman Dreads are just made for the role.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You obviously don't face Eldar often enough. Not only is it very difficult to dictate range against Eldar, they also have a lot of non-transport units which are prime targets for an AC.

Eldar is the primary army that I play against - trying to out gun them or out range them is a waste of time. Eldar are a special kind of beast to play against. I can see much much better units to take over a pair of rifleman dreads to counter any threats from eldar armour AND troops.

Errr... what? Eldar armies are notoriously short ranged. Most of their weaponry stops at 36". And it's perfectly practical to outgun them at range - Land Speeder Typhoons and Rifleman Dreads are just made for the role.

 

I think the point that he was trying to make was that your average (read: mechanized) Eldar army is fast enough that they can and will close to their own effective range bracket (24-36") to get the fight started.

 

That being said, however, I feel that the Rifleman is still better against Eldar than an AC/DCCW is. S7 will wound them all on 2+s, AP4 cuts through most of their armor, and the extra range is never a detriment: what if you're shooting at a DAVU Falcon hanging about in the backfield, or length-wise across your own battle-line to get at those Banshees who just cleaned up a Tactical Squad? Not to mention the fact that a Wave Serpent's energy field kills any hope of getting a penetrating hit with an assault cannon, but not with the autocannons.

[Koremu]

Hmmm. My main problem is War Walkers (9 of them), so the Range is useful because the WWs are only as fast as the Dread. That said I use a Typhoon by preference because it's faster to move out of their range when they inevitably arrive on a Flank, and easier to manoeuvre around intervening Terrain for clear shots when they try to get Cover Saves.

[Fetterkey]

Why is using a DCCW on a Dreadnought with a twin-linked autocannon a stupid pet trick? Because you have about the third best range in the game with that twin-linked autocannon, which significantly increases the Dread's durability (the enemy probably needs to close with your Dread to threaten it, while your Dread can just waddle around and threaten most foes). Throwing that DCCW on instead of a second twin-linked autocannon halves this threat. You've literally cut an arm off, and you're only doing half of that damage at range. And now you can... take two S10 attacks per turn in melee. And that autocannon becomes useless while also increasing your risk (you're necessarily closer to the enemy even if the enemy doesn't have a power fist or some similar way to mess up your Dread, so you might catch melta up the exhaust pipe when the melee ends).

 

I don't find Dreadnoughts without counterassault ability to be as impressive, personally. They are basically Hydras without the special rules that cost 50 points more. While the firepower that Mortis-pattern Dreadnoughts can put out is certainly decent, I like having both more distributed firepower and better counterassault ability, which are provided admirably by the twin-linked autocannon and DCCW Dreadnoughts.

[Jackelope King]

I don't find Dreadnoughts without counterassault ability to be as impressive, personally. They are basically Hydras without the special rules that cost 50 points more. While the firepower that Mortis-pattern Dreadnoughts can put out is certainly decent, I like having both more distributed firepower and better counterassault ability, which are provided admirably by the twin-linked autocannon and DCCW Dreadnoughts.

Problem is that my army's built on Codex: Space Marines, and we don't get to cherry pick Imperial Guard tanks willy-nilly. So Hydras aren't even an option. General advice: don't trap yourself by saying that a unit is good or bad based on what other codecies have that can fill the same role (I don't think you are, but it's important to point out). Tau Piranha, for example, are worse than Marine Landspeeders, hands-down. More expensive for less firepower and a slight increase in survivability, but a Piranha Squadron is absolutely critical to a Tau Army in the way Landspeeders will never be to Marines. Why? Different codicies. Marines have other sources of fast melta (bikes, attack bikes, drop-podded Sternguard) and less of a need to block enemy movement (we're a mid-to-close-range army, while Tau are a long-ranged shooty army), while Tau lack fast melta (they can't afford suicide deep-striking Crisis Suits, who provide most of the killing power of their force) and they must block enemy movement (to by themselves with more time to shoot).

 

Sorry for the digression, but it's an important point to address <_<

 

And onto the more substantive point, a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon matters in exactly one point in the turn (during the assault phase) and only if your Dread is in an assault. I don't know about you, but my Firebase stays way the heck away from enemy close-combat specialists. I play bikers, and my forward element are halfway across the board from my Firebase most of the game. Quite simply, if my enemy is assaulting my firebase, he'd better hope he wipes the whole thing out on one turn, because if he doesn't he's losing his transports and/or getting shot to death I'm practicing my Mr. Burns impression. Either way, my Bikers are more or less free to cause mayhem, and my biker command squad can have their way with the rest of his force. Having my firebase assaulted isn't something that will decide the game often enough for me to sacrifice half of my firepower to plan for it.

[Fetterkey]

Problem is that my army's built on Codex: Space Marines, and we don't get to cherry pick Imperial Guard tanks willy-nilly. So Hydras aren't even an option.

 

Certainly not, but the fact that there is a better unit for the same role in another Codex indicates that this unit may not be all that good. Generally, I try to play to my army's unique strengths by taking options that no other Codex can field.

 

And onto the more substantive point, a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon matters in exactly one point in the turn (during the assault phase) and only if your Dread is in an assault. I don't know about you, but my Firebase stays way the heck away from enemy close-combat specialists.

 

I don't use Dreadnoughts as firebase units; if I did I would forfeit their great assault power. Dreadnoughts are "any role necessary" units for me-- against a shooty army, they assault. Against an assaulty army, they shoot. Against another balanced army, they pop transports and counterassault. I find that this approach is better for an "all comers" list. On the other hand, your list probably has more assault punch in other sections of the army than mine does, so you may not need the counterassault capability. It all comes down to what your list as a whole can do. In my army, which has little/no other assault elements but a good amount of other long range shooting, counterassault is important-- in yours, Dreadnoughts seem to fill a different role and thus use different configurations.

[Koremu]

I don't use Dreadnoughts as firebase units; if I did I would forfeit their great assault power.

Dreadnoughts have great assault power? :P

[Fetterkey]

I don't use Dreadnoughts as firebase units; if I did I would forfeit their great assault power.

Dreadnoughts have great assault power? :D

 

Is this a joke?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Prolly not, but allow me to Devil's Advocate on this one. While a Dreadnought's measly number of attacks is, well, measly, at the very least their individual strikes do hit like a ton of bricks. Combined with the ability to fire all weapons into a target the same turn they assault, they can do lots of damage, dice-roll-dependent.