2 x TLAC on dreads

[Firedrake28]

Prolly not, but allow me to Devil's Advocate on this one. While a Dreadnought's measly number of attacks is, well, measly, at the very least their individual strikes do hit like a ton of bricks. Combined with the ability to fire all weapons into a target the same turn they assault, they can do lots of damage, dice-roll-dependent.

 

This is correct.

 

Dreadnoughts don't have great assault power unless we're talking about a Furioso/Death Company Dreadnought with blood talons. That is assault power. The two S10 Dreadnought close combat weapon attacks rarely achieve anything worthwhile since you're usually only getting one hit and killing one model.

[waaanial00]

@ Brother Tual: I did use to have a dislike for Rifleman Dreads, until I got owned by one and witnessed another game where it had alot of impact.

 

Thing is it won't fit into every list. If you have substantial heavy weaponary hanging back plus some Transport borne infantry moving forward/between the gunline and enemy, it becomes useful as it's primary weakness is offset (being stuck in assault). The list I faced had a Thunderfire Cannon, Combat squaded Tactical squad with Missile Launcher, Dread with TLC and 2 Typhoons, plus the Rifleman. The Rifleman put alot of pain on my Dreads and Rhinos with little chance of me replying for a few turns as I moved into my own range (medium range).

 

For that reason I take alot of Lascannons in my lists to have a reply!

 

 

GUILTY!!! That was me :)

 

I have frequently paired the Rifleman and the TL Lascannon dreads together for great effect. I find engaging armour at long range to bring much more control to the game. Ok so arguably its easier to kill tanks at short range but then your tanks are at short range and therefore easier to be taken out next turn, also should you fail you will have to face the full wrath of said armour and their support in your turn. Too many times has melta failed me for it to be taken as my mainstay tank killing.

 

Still I wont bother to try and convince people about it. I have played in local tournaments with the rifleman and done alright but Im not a tournament player with the required gun-ho attitude so I never do amazingly regardless of my unit choices, too busy having a laugh to be bothered about curb stomping my opponent (not aimed at anyone just an explaination of attitude).

 

I dont find these particular threads to be very helpful though. The question of whether it is decent all depends on what you want to get out of it, what role it has in your list, what decisions you have taken because of both its strengths and weaknesses, your experience with it, your opponents experience with it, target propritisation etc. Such complex elements cannot be summed up by a bit of mathmatecal analysis and theory hammer.

 

For example I take Dreadnoughts as Long ranged support units, they are not destined for combat because

 

a) They will statistically miss 50% of the time

:lol: I have other units for that

c) Experience shows that they miss more than 50% of the time

d) The closer it gets to the enemy statistically the easier it is to destroy

e) I have found d to be very true

f) My opponents know d to be very true

Etc

 

Now other people will come to different conclusions because we are all different.

 

However to those of you who think that Rifleman dreads only target tanks I would say thats just your one dimensional view point hampering your target choices. They are very good at killing light tanks however their other strength is targeting high toughness, high cost threats (MC's etc). The reason they are good at this is because generally you are wounding these easier than your standard weapons and whilst it is true that they are getting a save, due to both your rate and accuracy of fire they have to take a lot of them. It is also a relatively inexpensive way of getting wounds on what will likely be an expensive target, therefore the benefit of getting wounds vastly out weighs the cost of potential failure.

 

Still if people choose not to believe me thats cool, I have long since stopped trying to convince people. In my club since I stopped playing my standard 1500 point marine list there have been no less than 3 Rifleman conversions produced by different club members, all of which have been seen at local tournaments. Now this could have been a coincidence or it could be that each of these people played my list and were impressed with the riflemans performance.

 

Still I will say that they are a brilliant tool in the marine arsenal which for me are hard to overlook.

 

Wan

[Koremu]

I don't use Dreadnoughts as firebase units; if I did I would forfeit their great assault power.

Dreadnoughts have great assault power? :D

 

Is this a joke?

A Dreadnoughts Assault Power certainly is :)

[DerekLee688]

I don't use Dreadnoughts as firebase units; if I did I would forfeit their great assault power.

Dreadnoughts have great assault power? :(

 

Is this a joke?

A Dreadnoughts Assault Power certainly is :woot:

 

How many things in C:SM has equal odds in destroying a monolith by itself? Vindi, Conversion beamer, Lysander, and other dreads, that's about it. Not the best scenario, but S10+ ignore armor+ I4 is nasty.

[Koremu]

I don't use Dreadnoughts as firebase units; if I did I would forfeit their great assault power.

Dreadnoughts have great assault power? B)

 

Is this a joke?

A Dreadnoughts Assault Power certainly is :)

 

How many things in C:SM has equal odds in destroying a monolith by itself? Vindi, Conversion beamer, Lysander, and other dreads, that's about it. Not the best scenario, but S10+ ignore armor+ I4 is nasty.

If you can get a Dreadnought into Assault range of a Monolith, then the 'cron player is doing something badly wrong.

 

And if you are relying on killing the Monolith to beat 'crons, you're doing something wrong.

 

Let me be quite plain about this; 3 Attacks (IF you make the charge) is a pathetically low number to start throwing around phrases like "great assault power".

[DerekLee688]

Monoliths can show up anywhere and probably where your forces are concentrated the most. I still win because of phase out, but if you got a capable dread within assault distance from a monolith and don't take that shot, then something is wrong with YOU.

 

I can't bring myself to say S10 is trivial. Granted it probably won't be close enough to use it, but 2-3 of those attacks is useful counter assault if not intemidating. So screw the monolith example, can't S10 wreck enough things in this game?

[Gothical]

I would first like to say that I don't field the TL-AC Dreadnought, though I have really thought about it on more than one occasion.

 

What I have noticed a lot of people on here saying is that the AC is brilliant as you can "fire it from the first turn" and "eliminate enemy transports before they close".

 

Yes, that's a perfectly valid point - until you don't get to move first. A transport that can move anywhere from 12-24" (Rhinos-Wave Serpents, say) can cross practically half/the whole board (respectively) if we're talking about a 1500 point match-up on a 6x4 board. Once the enemy has advanced 12" up, they don't really give a hoot about you blowing the Transport away - as they are close enough to move, shoot/run and possibly assault. Sure, they may not have reached your back-field deployment, but they will have been able to reach critical objectives in relative force - and then the TL-AC is left shooting at units in cover since the AV10-12 targets are no longer important to the enemy's battle plan (and if you're shooting at empty transports in a non-KP game then you may be doing something wrong).

 

That's the reason I tend to prefer an AC/HF Dreadnought (venerable if I can) over the TL-ACx2 set-up. The enemy will get close at some stage, and supporting 2x 24" ranged Mechaised Tactical Squads suits this combination very well - especially as it tends to advance.

 

The ability to have Str10 swinging at I4 should not be underestimated, even if it is "only" 3 attacks - if you can combine your charges well enough (such as supporting the Dreadnought with Assault Marines or even a Tactical Squad) then you can easily work the Dreadnought into base-contact with the Independant Character, and they go *splat* quite easily, especially as most only have a 4+ Invulnerable Save tops, and will struggle to do any meaningful harm to the Dreadnought in return, so if you don't instantly kill them you can have another go - since they have high-Ld they're often not running away either :(

 

Mind you, my list actually uses a full unit of Devastators and a Thunderfire as a firebase, so I may not 1) need the ranged ability of the "Rifleman" and 2) may not be best qualified to talk about competative tactics :)

[Captain Idaho]

The threat of a counter charging Dreadnought can be an important way of putting an opponent's battle plans out of sync. Elite squads are really at threat from them, whilst any unit barring 10 fearless squads can be killed sure enough by them. They give you options.

 

The best way to see the threat they pose is imagine you are facing an opponent with a counter attacking Dreadnought.

[DarkGuard]

A counter-charging Dread is a threat to your opponents plans. Helps to keep your backline a little bit safe. I used to run a TL-LC/HF Dread, the lascannon to pop transports and tanks and the DCCW/HF to combat troops up close. Has worked well with being able to beat away some enemy units. That being said, it is a lot of points to field, and doesn't have the anti-vehicular firepower that a rifleman can boast.

 

In the end though S6 is not too shabby, and if your Dread can hold up enemy units then that's not too bad. I'm still with riflemans on this, but Dreads with DCCW are not useless, far from it.

[Fetterkey]

Dreadnoughts don't have great assault power unless we're talking about a Furioso/Death Company Dreadnought with blood talons. That is assault power. The two S10 Dreadnought close combat weapon attacks rarely achieve anything worthwhile since you're usually only getting one hit and killing one model.

 

Standard Dreadnoughts are better in assault than Blood Talon Dreadnoughts. Blood Talons are a sidegrade or downgrade; while they increase the Dreadnought's ability to kill infantry, Dreadnoughts already kill infantry, just over a longer timeframe. In exchange, you lose your ability to deal effectively with vehicles. So essentially, Blood Talons make you better at killing units that you're already good against, but in exchange you lose your capability to deal with other types of units. Not a good trade in my book.

 

Let me be quite plain about this; 3 Attacks (IF you make the charge) is a pathetically low number to start throwing around phrases like "great assault power".

 

It's not just about the number of attacks. Dreadnoughts are great in assault because they are basically immune to attacks from the majority of units in the game, while they have the ability to kill almost any model in the game with their strength 10 power weapon attacks. Ironclad Dreadnoughts are even better, of course, since they're immune to even more things, get an extra attack, and get a bonus against vehicles, but standard Dreadnoughts are definitely a great assault unit.

[Koremu]

Let me be quite plain about this; 3 Attacks (IF you make the charge) is a pathetically low number to start throwing around phrases like "great assault power".

 

It's not just about the number of attacks. Dreadnoughts are great in assault because they are basically immune to attacks from the majority of units in the game, while they have the ability to kill almost any model in the game with their strength 10 power weapon attacks. Ironclad Dreadnoughts are even better, of course, since they're immune to even more things, get an extra attack, and get a bonus against vehicles, but standard Dreadnoughts are definitely a great assault unit.

The problem with using Dreadnoughts to kill hard things is that almost anything that is worth throwing a Dreadnought against (points-wise) will mince the Dread in short order.

 

Meanwhile, anything the Dreadnought is immune to has enough bodies to tarpit the Dread for a long time.

 

And the Dread is hardly immune to the Majority of units in the game anyway - because it's not immune to a Sergeant armed with a Power Fist, and it has no chance of killing him before he kills it.

 

 

EDIT: Here follows some opinion game theory;

 

What kills Dreads as a viable CC unit, IMO is mechanisation. Dreads work excellently in combination with your common Infantry Tactical Squad - the Dread provides a STR10 Fist, the Squad provides the bodies.

 

The trouble is that mechanisation has killed this combination, both by increasing the mobility of Tactical Squads, and therefore the potential force multiplication on the Squad, and by the protective benefit of the Rhino.

 

 

It's not worth it to the Squad to stick with the Dreadnought any more.

[Fetterkey]

The problem with using Dreadnoughts to kill hard things is that almost anything that is worth throwing a Dreadnought against (points-wise) will mince the Dread in short order.

 

I don't find this to be true. A Dreadnought using my configuration costs 115 points, while even a basic Tactical Squad costs 170.

[DerekLee688]

If tac's and dreads were such a good combo, how about dreads and vindicators? Same speed, one needs it's sides covered, and two dreads should make up for any range differences. Nothing else in the C:SM will do the job; speeder's armor is worse, preds armor is just as bad, and land riaders usually gun it to 12".

 

Of course, I again have to make the BA disclaimer; their vindi's CAN keep up with land raiders. I'm beginning to think they were just playtesting the C:SM for everyone to use C:BA.

[Chengar Qordath]

The problem with using Dreadnoughts to kill hard things is that almost anything that is worth throwing a Dreadnought against (points-wise) will mince the Dread in short order.

 

I don't find this to be true. A Dreadnought using my configuration costs 115 points, while even a basic Tactical Squad costs 170.

That post was in regards to vehicles, and tactical squads are not vehicles.

 

In any case, the standard tac squad, with the ubiquitous powerfist-sergeant, can deal with a Dreadnought without too much trouble if they get caught in assault.

[Gothical]

The problem with using Dreadnoughts to kill hard things is that almost anything that is worth throwing a Dreadnought against (points-wise) will mince the Dread in short order.

 

Meanwhile, anything the Dreadnought is immune to has enough bodies to tarpit the Dread for a long time.

 

And the Dread is hardly immune to the Majority of units in the game anyway - because it's not immune to a Sergeant armed with a Power Fist, and it has no chance of killing him before he kills it.

 

The tarpitting can be a boon - people just have to get away from "getting your points back" mindsets.

 

I had a 125pt Dreadnought tie up a good 4 combined Guard squads with Commissar - incindentally worth a lot more than the Dreadnought. They couldn't hurt the Dreadnought, and were suffering few casualties from the low number of attacks. But the combat was so large it stopped a good portion of the opponent's heavy weapons from being able to draw LOS to some of my more vital units, and he couldn't easily move around the mass of bodies to get to the objective behind the Dreadnought (held by Tactical Squads).

 

Did the Dreadnought make its points back in that battle? No.

However it was rather vital to actually meaning I won the game.

 

Power Fists seem to be on the way out in 5th Edition, at least on most peoples' core units - other Marine players in my area, and myself included, have found there are distinct benefits to equipping the Tactical Squad as a ranged unit, forgoing and combat upgrades, and having a unit that is CC capable as support. Dreadnoughts happen to supplement this well, even if they have a low number of attacks.

 

Relic Blades are ever-popular equipment for Captains too - with a normal Dreadnought the captain is glancing on 6s, and with an Ironclad he just can't hurt it (and don't get me started on Librarians who take no combat-modifying powers), and thus I have been able to take out a quite large number of independant characters in my area with the Dreadnought.

 

I still don't know of many 125pt units that could take the Dreadnought out - Scouts could, but there's a Heavy Flamer. A 5-man Assualt Squad with a Power Fist doesn't look so sure when you've hit it with a Heavy Flamer and an Assault Cannon on the way in. And anything that can take the Dreadnought out up-close is going to get mauled in short order, and since I am supporting the Dread with 20 Tactical Marines, blown to hell standing around in the open. The lack of ability to consolidate into a new Assault means the Dreadnought can even maul the dreaded Ork Mob - even if it dies in the process, it clumps up the enemy and leaves them standing somewhere they didn't want to be - facing the guns of other elements of the army with nowhere to go.

 

That's why I like Dreadnoughts. They may have a low Attack stat, but that doesn't mean they have "low combat power". They exist to be able to handle things that Tactical Squads can't, to pincer units in combination with some sort of Infantry to try to attack Independant Characters, to create large LOS/movement-blocking combats whilst the important, more shooting-oriented forces are free'd up to target other oncoming threats. As long as you are willing to accept that sometimes it is not going to "earn its points back", yet still can be important to a victory none-the-less they aren't such bad units.

 

What kills Dreads as a viable CC unit, IMO is mechanisation. Dreads work excellently in combination with your common Infantry Tactical Squad - the Dread provides a STR10 Fist, the Squad provides the bodies.

 

The trouble is that mechanisation has killed this combination, both by increasing the mobility of Tactical Squads, and therefore the potential force multiplication on the Squad, and by the protective benefit of the Rhino.

 

It's not worth it to the Squad to stick with the Dreadnought any more.

 

I think the reverse - a Dreadnought tag-teaming with a pair of Tactical Squads in Rhinos is a pretty solid centre - the enemy has to choose which to target (more difficult as I have a lot of other transports in the army), the transports or the Dreadnought. With the Run ability the Dreadnought can catch up in short order, or you can have disembarked the Tactical Squads to walk on foot, using the Rhinos as mobile terrain to block LOS to enemy weaponry.

[Fetterkey]

That post was in regards to vehicles, and tactical squads are not vehicles.

 

No, it wasn't.

 

In any case, the standard tac squad, with the ubiquitous powerfist-sergeant, can deal with a Dreadnought without too much trouble if they get caught in assault.

 

Not in my experience. Keep in mind that a power fist attack has only around a 5.6% chance of destroying a Dreadnought, and that in all likelihood that squad will have been whittled down before the assault. That power fist is also not as "ubiquitous" as you think these days.

[Captain Idaho]

Not all Tactical squads in Rhinos have to move towards the enemy. There is plenty of scope for Dreads to support a Tactical squad or any unit for that matter.

 

The tarpitting can be a boon - people just have to get away from "getting your points back" mindsets.

 

Definitely. I would deem a Dread as performing well if it killed nothing but delayed the opposing players assault because he held back afraid of a counter charge from a model he couldn't kill, thus enabling me to do what I wanted.

[Brother Tual]

Koremu, You have said that the 2xTLAC dread is perfect for Eldar vehicles, transport or non transport. I agree, 4 shots at str 7 is nice for the medium armour (although it is at the TOP end of the ability of a AC) but I asked about why is range so important and you told me that it is great because you can out range the eldar weaponry. I have never been able to out range eldar because I have 1 shot and only 1 weapon capable of 2 shot good str long range weaponry, they have multiple multiple shot good str long range weaponry... (autocannon vs scatter laser, catapult, pulse laser, star cannon, etc etc) In additon to that, you said it is difficult to dictate range against eldar, and I agree.. so EVEN if I outrange the eldar, they can close the gap in the same turn and still shoot me, whats the point of trying to outrange eldar? I fail to see how this is a strength of the rifleman..

 

 

Eldar armies are notoriously short ranged. Most of their weaponry stops at 36". And it's perfectly practical to outgun them at range - Land Speeder Typhoons and Rifleman Dreads are just made for the role.

 

 

 

 

Not only is it very difficult to dictate range against Eldar, they also have a lot of non-transport units which are prime targets for an AC.

 

That's why you do it on turn 1, before the other guy is in your face, and that's why the range is so valuable. A mech list that has its transports blown out from under it turns into a slightly lower point-value gunline list

 

A mech list that falls flat on its face infront of your guns is a dead list. The lower points spent on bodies means they are easier to kill given high volume hurt. I dont know about you, but my lists give out alot more volume from 12' to 18' range. That is MY optimal range. If I get you stuck, in the open that unit is going to have a hard time. I know that the range is most likely to be the enemy's optimal range also, but as you said, they are weaker because they have spent points on the transport...

 

***********************************************************************************************8****

 

I love the combination of dreads and vindis. I love the str 10 combat arm. The combination of soo much str 10 weaponry at such a short range will destroy and high end unit or threat. True, a DP will minch a dread in combat, but thats where the assault cannon provides the means to deal with a HIGHER intiative combat unit capable of breaking AV12.

 

 

I like the way this guy explains the value in killing a mech list up close... or more in the open and exposed rather than early...undefined

[Velkairiwyth]

Im wondering how an Asscan/TLAC dread would do...

 

The ranges dont mesh fantastically, but you have the accuracy and reliability of the TLAC with the volume of shots from the assault cannon. With that volume of shots it should land a few hits, theyre as effective at killing infantry (Rending may make it more so) - its slightly less reliable at popping vehicles, but it is still capable and when it rends it can potentially puncture AV15 - but I have learned never to rely on Assault Cannons unless desperate on anything heavily armoured.

 

As for the CC/Ranged debate - I like to take a mix... I have found my most effective lists have had dreadnoughts with good range, and an Ironclad. The ironclad waddles up the field - with better AV, the inability to stun it and its much improved CC abilities - I have not been dissapointed by them. Especially with a Vindi at its rear attracting that Heavy Weapons fire...

 

Against Marines the Ironclad has taken out transports, squads (AV13 gives it improved survivability against those fists) and other dreadnoughts, all in the one battle.

 

Against tyranids it makes a very effective speed bump unit... only the MCs can really threaten it properly - the other units tend to die off quickly to no retreat deaths. And I have effectively popped wounded Trygons and Tervigons with minimal injury (as long as said trygon is not highly invested in upgrades and gets the charge.) S6 MC has <50% chance to glance/penetrate, and still needs to hit. S10 and AV13 also means that if you were foolish enough to ignore those warriors with whips and boneswords... slam this fella in their face and enjoy the insta-killy goodness.

 

Im getting off-track a bit maybe, but thought it might be worth brigning up :rolleyes:

 

My alternative ranged dread is a Plascan/ML one. Same points value as DTLAC, doesnt have the accuracy or reliability in hitting, but a krak missile does give a slightly better chance of penetrating, and the template spam means its awesome anti-horde (and also anti-MEQ) - pretty much a jack of all trades whos only weakness is relying on the scatter dice and CC against armoured troops/MCs.

 

In test battles I found a TLAC dread (surviving the whole game) managed to cripple a wave serpent and kill a dark reaper, whilst the template dread has taken out many marines and a dreadnought when fighting Black Templars. (infantry line army - made me grin when I brought a template spam army to the table. 2 Typhoons, vindicator, Heavy flamers and template dread. T4 tabling with the loss of two rhinos and 2 marines... one of which died shooting a plasma-gun.)

 

/ramble.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Cheap And Reliable. Doesn't sacrifice mobility like a static sternguard heavy squad, can go for side armor, shoot from turn 1. I really don't see how anyone can question these. With a nearly perfect hit rate they are awesome and make sure my metlas arent wasn't. Having the power to destroy 3 transports turn one is devastating to the enemy. and yes, I take them because unlike that one lascannon hit, four S7 usually gets me more damage results and destroys 1/3 just like the las cannon. Sure we may miss the DCCW but with everyone and their grandma carrying a metlagun in a transport...I'll stick with them for anti light armour purposes.

[Koremu]

Koremu, You have said that the 2xTLAC dread is perfect for Eldar vehicles, transport or non transport. I agree, 4 shots at str 7 is nice for the medium armour (although it is at the TOP end of the ability of a AC) but I asked about why is range so important and you told me that it is great because you can out range the eldar weaponry. I have never been able to out range eldar because I have 1 shot and only 1 weapon capable of 2 shot good str long range weaponry, they have multiple multiple shot good str long range weaponry... (autocannon vs scatter laser, catapult, pulse laser, star cannon, etc etc) In additon to that, you said it is difficult to dictate range against eldar, and I agree.. so EVEN if I outrange the eldar, they can close the gap in the same turn and still shoot me, whats the point of trying to outrange eldar? I fail to see how this is a strength of the rifleman..

Because in order to get under your range, they must sacrifice their shooting. Remember, Lances etc are a 36" range. When you then tactically use Vindicators and Speeders to force them to risk positioning themselves if they want to fire at the Rifleman... you should be able to see where that's going.

[Jackelope King]

Koremu, You have said that the 2xTLAC dread is perfect for Eldar vehicles, transport or non transport. I agree, 4 shots at str 7 is nice for the medium armour (although it is at the TOP end of the ability of a AC) but I asked about why is range so important and you told me that it is great because you can out range the eldar weaponry. I have never been able to out range eldar because I have 1 shot and only 1 weapon capable of 2 shot good str long range weaponry, they have multiple multiple shot good str long range weaponry... (autocannon vs scatter laser, catapult, pulse laser, star cannon, etc etc) In additon to that, you said it is difficult to dictate range against eldar, and I agree.. so EVEN if I outrange the eldar, they can close the gap in the same turn and still shoot me, whats the point of trying to outrange eldar? I fail to see how this is a strength of the rifleman..

Because in order to get under your range, they must sacrifice their shooting. Remember, Lances etc are a 36" range. When you then tactically use Vindicators and Speeders to force them to risk positioning themselves if they want to fire at the Rifleman... you should be able to see where that's going.

Exactly. Mech Eldar wins against opponents it out-ranges by swooping around and pumping shots into scattered enemy units, allowing them to shoot with relative impunity. So what happens when you castle up and target them with guns capable of pumping out shots with good chances of scoring glancing and penetrating hits? Their effectiveness bottoms out. A unit like a Rifleman Dread, deployed in the center of your "castle", is going to threaten the whole Eldar army if they try to target any unit in your army.

[Captain Idaho]

I've witnessed the Rifleman be a major factor in a game against Eldar Grav Tanks. Whilst I know that was a single game it demonstrated their intended use and capacity.

 

Im wondering how an Asscan/TLAC dread would do...

 

Last page of this thread we discussed it, where I brought up the Dread, dubbing it the Heavy Gunner! :)

[Brother Tual]

hmmm - mech eldar have alot of good str multi shot weaponry with most ranges being 36' for these weapons. I am finding it very hard to find any marine weapons of a similar profile.. I fail to see how a rifleman or three will bring eldar to a range CLOSER than 30 inches. It will be easy to neutralise your riflemen at this range for eldar given their amount of high str multi shot weaponry on highly mobile platforms.. The down side is that all your vindicators, MM speeders are STILL out of range. You now have to come out from your 'castle' (which is the worse tactic to use against mech eldar) to engage. If marines could have multishot weapons at range 36, I might agree. But for us, it is 48' or 24 or less. 48' still works at 24' so thats where I want to be - bringing them to 30 inches is not good enough.

 

For those that use rifleman dreads. What do your lists look like? and why do you have them? Do you mind the loss of elite choices? Why is a rifleman a better choice some other selection?

[KhorneHunter57x]

For those that use rifleman dreads. What do your lists look like? and why do you have them? Do you mind the loss of elite choices? Why is a rifleman a better choice some other selection?

Usually my lists that have a Rifleman (whenever I hear that name, I am reminded of an old TV show starring Chuck Connors) have 2-4 Missile/Plasma Tac squads in Rhinos, a Whirlwind, either a LasRaider or a Predator with TL Las, and a Relic Blade/Storm Shield/Artificer Captain riding around with a Command Squad or a Sternguard Squad in a Rhino. I have the Rifleman for long-range Rhino/Chimera/Trukk killing, where I follow up by shelling the occupants of the transport with the Whirlie. The number of shots can also be useful for hurting obscured artillery.

 

I don't mind the loss of Elites slots because generally the only other Elite that I take is a squad of Sternguard, and in larger games I sometimes take an Ironclad in addition, but my Elites are rarely used up without the Rifleman, so taking it is never a loss for me as far as the FOC goes.

 

I prefer it to other Elites because it is pretty much the only long-range, heavy firepower Elites choice, and I prefer it to the Dakka or Combi-Predator because the Rifleman can safely move through cover, is substantially more durable in CC, and can move and fire everything.